RE: House Rules for FitE 5.0 ??

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> Opponents Wanted >> RE: House Rules for FitE 5.0 ??

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RE: House Rules for FitE 5.0 ?? - 11/14/2007 12:38:18 PM

Monkeys Brain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I think in a scenario like this Finland should be left out, for the reasons given so far and a few others. But if the theatre is included in a scenario, it shouldn't have restrictions. The design should be such that the situation would be similar to the historical situation. Finnish forces shouldn't be so strong that they can take Leningrad, German units should be busy up north protecting Petsamo, Sweden and Norway, and if the Soviet decides to push into Finland early, it will take away from every unit that is needed to defend everything else.

Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be completely wrong.

I agree.

In some games Soviet player sends dozen of division sized units there or even more. I don't think that Hitler would watch this just like that, he would send few division there maybe.

Of course Soviets and Germans are doing this at the expense of other theatres and they need divisions maybe even more elsewhere. There is a matter of shipping expense (rail, sea) as well etc...

Mario

(in reply to sPzAbt653)

Post #: 31

RE: House Rules for FitE 5.0 ?? - 11/15/2007 1:55:06 PM

vahauser

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From: Texas
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I agree that Finland creates serious game-balance and game-play issues. Including Finland in FitE seems to be almost more trouble than it's worth.

How does the following sound for a House Rule regarding the mess in Finland?

House Rule for Finland:
1) No ground, air, or naval units on or north of hexrow 65, north of Leningrad, may move before Turn 40.
2) No ground, air, or naval units south of hexrow 65 may may enter any hex on or north of hexrow 65 before Turn 40.
3) If Axis units south of hexrow 65 move to within 4 hexes of Leningrad prior to Turn 40, then the restrictions of #1 and #2 above are lifted for the remainder of the game.

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RE: House Rules for FitE 5.0 ?? - 11/15/2007 4:34:38 PM

Karri

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To tell the truth, I think the best version is the house rule that Soviets canno't move any units from the finnish border until Finland attacks. It works IMO.

And on a second thought, I think say after turn 40 or after the mud period Germans should be able to move as many divisions into Finland as they like...historically the finns didn't even let German artillery observers in the Karelian Isthmus, but then again historically the Soviets didn't have 100 divisions against the finns.

< Message edited by Karri -- 11/15/2007 4:36:13 PM >

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Post #: 33

RE: House Rules for FitE 5.0 ?? - 11/15/2007 5:15:58 PM

vahauser

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Karri,

The issues you raise are just more reasons that, to me, Finland creates more problems than it's worth.

As the Soviet player I would never agree to let the German player put as many units as he wants into Finland.

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RE: House Rules for FitE 5.0 ?? - 11/15/2007 7:00:02 PM

Fungwu

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Why not redesign the scenario so that the Finns cannot advance beyond their historical advance and are locked into garrison status on the turn that corresponds with the date they stopped advancing. All Russian units that were sent to the Finish border appear there locked in garrison status. Throughout the game the Russian player has the option to attack Finland which unlocks all units and removes all restrictions. I would also remove Murmansk and Archangelsk all together.

I don't understand why taking Leningrad would remove Finnish restrictions. If the Finns only wanted their terrirtory back, and Leiningrad, the main place a soviet counteroffense would probably be launched from was taken, why wouldn't the Finnsh just fortify the border and end the war? The german player could gather up the whole Finnish army and rail them to Stalingrad or some place far away, and I doubt the Finnish goverment would let their entire army be removed from Finland for the greater glory of the German empire.

Anyway, my two cents...

(in reply to vahauser)

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RE: House Rules for FitE 5.0 ?? - 11/15/2007 7:09:49 PM

vahauser

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From: Texas
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Fungwu,

That is the problem with the Finns. They are real close to a lot of juicy victory objectives like Leningrad and Murmansk. And so both players are highly motivated to gain whatever advantage they can in Finland. And this can ruin the game.

The only solution that I know of is to let both players negotiate and work out a deal and hope it doesn't ruin the game.

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Post #: 36

RE: House Rules for FitE 5.0 ?? - 11/16/2007 12:28:14 AM

SMK-at-work

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Action in the Arctic/Murmansk doesn't ruin the game, but a successful Finnish advance north of Lake Lagoda can by virtue of wrreacking the Sov's ability to fight for Lenningrad.

Fungwu's idea of freezing units would be great but it looks complicated...what constitutes "the border"? What happens if one side simply doesn't put any troops there?

The problem with the original rules (ie the Finns not being allowed to cross the border) was that the Sov's simply ignored them - no trops were required to garrison it. Historically the 7th Army did so. The rules that Buzz & I sorted out were an attempt to ensure that the Sov's had to garrison the border, or else the Finns could keep coming......perhaps they wouldnt' have done so historically....but then the Sov's couldn't afford to take that chance. In my 2 games I use the NKVD divisions to garrison the border.

The reason that Finnish restrictions are lifted if Lenningrad is taken, IMO, are that if that happened then the Finns would think the Sov's were finnished (pardon the pun) and so would try to help KO them completely. This may or may not be a reasonable idea - I dont' know how the Finns felt about incorporating a lot of ex-Soviet territory that was never part of Finalnd and was full of Russians.

but IMO allowing the finns to operate without any restriction is probably unbalancing......perhaps there was a slightly larger zone they might operate in if Lenningrad was taken, but as Fungwu says it sems unlikely that they'd allow their army to stray too far from home.

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Post #: 37

RE: House Rules for FitE 5.0 ?? - 11/16/2007 2:26:45 AM

Fungwu

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"Fungwu's idea of freezing units would be great but it looks complicated...what constitutes "the border"? What happens if one side simply doesn't put any troops there?"

I'll explain my idea a little better. The "border" is the historical limit of the Finnish advance, north of Leningrad, at the svir, and where ever else, the area in mind is already marked with a black border on the FITE map, it is the border that the house rules say the Finns cant advance past.

You said the Russian 7th army historically manned the border, so put the Russian 7th Army, locked in garrison status at their historical deployment. That way the Russians have to man the border, because the troops start in their historical positions, and can't move. For the Finns, just have house rules saying they can't move past the border. Or just find out what date that they stopped advancing, like october 5th 1941, and at that date have an event where the Finnish army goes into garrison status and cannot move. So you have the Russian 7th army or whatever locked into their historical positions, and the Finnish player, after having some turns to position his troops, has his troops locked in place. If the Russian player ever wants to invade Finland, say in 1944, he activates a theater option and his troops and the Finnish troops are unlocked.

I guess the simple version would be to just add the Russian troops that historically manned the border, locked in so they can't move, the Finns are under house rules not to advance past the borders that are already established.

(in reply to SMK-at-work)

Post #: 38

RE: House Rules for FitE 5.0 ?? - 11/16/2007 2:33:55 AM

SMK-at-work

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OK - but alas such a temptingly simple solution invites a lot more questions.

The Russians didn't START at that border...they were forced back to it by Finnish actions....so putting the border there means yuo don't play much of the finnish campaign.....so why bother having the finns at all? why not just put the border at the 1942-43 limit, and "activate" the Finns solely for hte russian attacks in 1943-44?

Indeed why not just take out the russian forces involved against the Finns and the Finns altogether?

Or alternatively what happens to the finns and the Russian garrison if the Germans advance that far?

For all the desireability of automating the finnish border, IMO the best solution remains the house rules requiring the Russians to garrison it to prevent the Finns coming across. this allows the russian player to decide what troops to use, where to make the "stop" line, gives hte Axis player the options of conducting a "little war" along that line or not, etc., while still keeping it a strictly secondary theatre.

(in reply to Fungwu)

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RE: House Rules for FitE 5.0 ?? - 11/16/2007 2:43:35 AM

Fungwu

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"Why not just put the border at the 1942-43 limit, and "activate" the Finns solely for hte russian attacks in 1943-44?"

Sounds good to me.

Or alternatively, Freeze all Finnish formations, and the Russian formations that start in Finland, at say turn 30. Then give the Finnish player a theater option to make a limited offensive, the theater option unlocks both sides for 10 turns.

So the Finns attack at the beginning, push the Russians back to the historical border. Then both sides have a chance to deploy defensively before they are frozen. The Russian player needs to either save alot of his forces from Finland, or send in reinforcements, because the Finns can attack, albeit for only a few turns.

If the Germans reach the border, than the Russian player can just use his invade finland option to unlock his men.

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RE: House Rules for FitE 5.0 ?? - 11/16/2007 4:58:55 AM

vahauser

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I'm convinced that hard-wiring rules regarding Finland is likely to upset more people than it satisfies.

I still think that the best way to handle Finland is to let the players reach an agreement for themselves.

Perhaps some suggested House Rules could be put into the Scenario Briefing, but I don't like the idea of hard-wired rules for Finland.

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