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RHS CVO level 7

 
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RHS CVO level 7 - 11/20/2007 12:05:32 PM   
Hipper

 

Posts: 254
Joined: 6/15/2004
Status: offline 		Hi Cid

Ive just downloaded the level 7 maps & RHS CVO and it looks great I hate to think how much work has been done to get it this far

tones of stuff for me to look at & I've even got a game that might start soon

however there are a few inaccuracies that seem to have crept back in

however some things that stand out

Fulmars - only one 100 lb bomb? 2x100 or 2x250 lb for the mark 2 fulmars which were used in 1942

7th armoured brigade the old standard of 56 x grants & 56 stuarts seem to have crept back swaping to 104 stuarts should do the trick

The 7th Armored Brigade Group in Burma was composed of the 7th Queen's Own Hussars (52 Stuart Is), the 11th Hussars (52 Stuart Is), the 1st Battalion Cameronians (Motor Battalion) from 2/24/42 - 3/12/42, the 1st Battalion West Yorkshire Regiment (Motor Battalion) from 3/12/42 - 5/12/42, the 414th Battery, RHA (Essex Yeomanry - 8 x 25 pounders), "A" Battery, 95th AT Regiment RA (12 x 2 pounder AT), 65th Company Royal Serrvice Corps, 13th Field Ambulance Company, RAMC, Ordnance and Field Park Companies.......

I keep looking in the malaya forces at start and can't find any artillery ?

the 9th division 8th & 22nd brigades had the 5th and 88th field artillery regiments (nb why are the 22nd regarded as a Gurka brigade)
the 11th division had the 22nd mountain and the 137th and 155 field artilery regiment

I can see why you might strip the artillery out of the individual brigades

122nd field artillery was part of the fortress troops at singapore

and finally I know you are ex USN but how does the Iowa end up with 368 mm belt armour would not about 12 inches 300 mm be more accurate ?
or is an allowance being made for inclined armour (ok not very important but ? )

cheers cid keep up the good work I cant wait to get started

hipper












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RE: RHS CVO level 7 - 11/20/2007 12:10:11 PM   
Hipper

 

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Status: offline 		oops ok my bad

I see the 28th brigade was indeen a Gurkha brigade



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RE: RHS CVO level 7 - 11/20/2007 6:14:50 PM   
Mifune


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From: Florida
Status: offline 		Hipper here is some additional information concerning the 122nd Field Artillery "On 3 January 1941 the Regiment embarked at Glasgow in the ironically named Canadian Pacific liner 'Empress of Japan' and arrived in Malaya on 11 March to become part of the 12th Indian Brigade." So the 122nd Field Artillery was not initially at Singapore.



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RE: RHS CVO level 7 - 11/20/2007 7:44:23 PM   
el cid again

 

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Status: offline 		Turns out that technically British and Commonwealth organization did not have artillery in the brigades - as organic. Sometimes we put it in when there is a long term association. But in general the artillery is in many separate formations. Wether or not it is right in Malaya I have no idea: most of this OB was inherited and we reworked things that came to our attention, above all Indian, Australian and New Zealand forces re CW. Also we revised some African ones.
But Malaya should have been pretty well done in CHS - and only a few specific changes were made when pointed out.
I do remember, however, that artillery was organic to brigades in CHS, and we took it out because it was essentially duplicated. Similarly, there are huge numbers of AAA type artillery which are separated out - which I don't particularly like - slot usage wise.

Some cases have the artillery organic to locations: see for example Singapore, Hong Kong, etc. I reworked Hong Kong carefully and all the units of all kinds are there - even the Hong Kong Chinese, and the Canadians of course.

A big problem is that WITP does not allow an organization to change. So when a unit appears, it appears as it was when it entered PTO - or when the game begins - not as it was later. Sometimes I can suppliment it - as with the reinforcing artillery for the Hawaii Separate Coast Artillery Brigade - but that costs a slot - and so it is a rare solution.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 11/20/2007 7:45:06 PM >

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RE: RHS CVO level 7 - 11/20/2007 7:45:23 PM   
Hipper

 

Posts: 254
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Status: offline 		Hipper here is some additional information concerning the 122nd Field Artillery "On 3 January 1941 the Regiment embarked at Glasgow in the ironically named Canadian Pacific liner 'Empress of Japan' and arrived in Malaya on 11 March to become part of the 12th Indian Brigade." So the 122nd Field Artillery was not initially at Singapore.

if it arrived in 11th march 1941 it was indeed in singapore on december 7th 1941 then

my comment is the lack of any british artillery in malaya which was not the case !

cheers

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RE: RHS CVO level 7 - 11/20/2007 7:51:08 PM   
el cid again

 

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Status: offline 		If you wish to address this in RHS - the best solution is to be very specific. If you refer to a unit - find its slot number.
And look for the unit - lots of units are there - but may appear in a different place and/or a different time.

It is more difficult to find units included in packages - and we do have packages - due to slots and other factors. I don't want the Hong Kong garrison running - so I left the idea it is static in the set - although in fact many regiments of a normal mobile sort were present. We cannot do every battalion - lack of slots - so we lump things. You may find some artillery organic to a unit for example.

But what is the case is that the British Army regarded artillery as separate from its infantry organization - and a brigade had no organic artillery. The artillery has a name - and I think you will find most of it is in the game. Now if you think it is in the wrong place or time, I can deal with that - but time efficient work means I should not need to go slot hunting. If you see the unit - record its slot for reporting.

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RE: RHS CVO level 7 - 11/20/2007 8:44:35 PM   
el cid again

 

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Status: offline 		Just looking at one location in Malaya, I found an AIF Brigade with an attached battalion of 75mm field guns. Clearly there is some artillery in country.

Turns out this is not that rare: two AIF brigades have an artillery regiment and so do two Indian brigades. I suspect all of these may be incorrect as well - but as I said - I have not researched the Malay OB - it is from CHS. One of these units is the 12th Indian Brigade - so your 122nd Regiment seems to be present.

There is also a great deal of static artillery at Singapore - including 5 x 15 inch guns. In spite of legend, IRL these not only could fire inland - they did (albiet only with AP shot). They are able to fire inland here - also with AP shot. Along with numbers of medium CD weapons.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 11/20/2007 8:52:56 PM >

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RE: RHS CVO level 7 - 11/20/2007 9:36:13 PM   
Mifune


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From: Florida
Status: offline 		The 122nd should start in Malacca with the 12th brigade when the war starts.

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RE: RHS CVO level 7 - 11/20/2007 10:03:32 PM   
Mifune


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Status: offline 		I just realized that I had not cut and paste properly. I failed to paste the next paragraph. "When the Japanese invaded Malaya the following December, 278 Battery was sent up country to face them and fought its way all down the Peninsular to rejoin 280 Battery in the short battle for Singapore Island." Hipper I do agree with you with most of your points except where the 122nd started.

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RE: RHS CVO level 7 - 11/21/2007 2:47:18 AM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mifune

The 122nd should start in Malacca with the 12th brigade when the war starts.


And it does. Looks like it should only have one battery - though. The other one should apparently stay at Singapore.

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RE: RHS CVO level 7 - 11/21/2007 2:59:56 AM   
el cid again

 

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Status: offline 		Indian Army artillery should be shown as a divisional asset. But instead of 54 guns, it should appear as 48. Indian Army brigades should not have artillery, unless attached. If attached, it should be 16 guns, vice 18 or 12 as was the case in CHS and some inherited units in RHS.

There is no artillery at the start in Indian Brigades in Malaya - but when I look at a test later in time - 12 guns showed up - because of an error in Level 7: like Levels 5 and 6 there should NOT be artillery in the brigades TO&E at all.

I am reducing the artillery of 12 Brigade to 8 pieces - and putting the other 8 at Singapore Island in the defenses there.

If you can show other artillery in theater - we will look for it.

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RE: RHS CVO level 7 - 11/21/2007 4:18:00 AM   
Mifune


Posts: 787
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From: Florida
Status: offline 		I will mail you a list of assets in Singapore.

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RE: RHS CVO level 7 - 11/21/2007 12:42:49 PM   
Hipper

 

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Status: offline 		Hi Cid

are we looking at the same scenario I'm looking at RHSCVO 7.87

none of the indian army brigades have integral artillery including 12 brigade, the australian brigades do

there are no separate artillery units in malaya at start

missing are the 5th and 88th field artillery regiments - 9th division artillery
22nd mountain and the 137th and 155 field artilery regiment 11th division artillery

the 122 field artillery regiment

nb the 15th brigade (device 2394) should be with the 11th division at Alor star not Khota Baru

I agree with taking integral artillery out of the indian brigades - but you should give them the artillery units that existed

I suspect the same problem exists with burma - Ill have a look next

cheers Hipper





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RE: RHS CVO level 7 - 11/21/2007 6:26:30 PM   
el cid again

 

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Status: offline 		It appears that the norm in Malaya was to attach a single battery of artillery = half a regiment - to each brigade - with exceptions getting none at all. To be sure, a British "battery" is a baby battalion - two sections of 4 guns each - but this is a very light loading - and means that ALL CHS data was completely messed up. The Aussies appear to have had a better idea - and it may be they have a whole regiment per brigade.

It is messy and slow going - to convert 22 scenarios - but I will complete this for this update - which is last for Levels 5 and 6 (finally). There are many tens of thousands of records, and modders hope not to need to change them all - but each thing you leave is risky.

In Level 7 you ended up with 12 guns in each brigade - due to a technical error - in a few days. That was not intended - a leftover from CHS formation settings which had been changed in Levels 5 and 6.

Edit: The 22nd Australian Brigade, AIF - had NO artillery at all! The 27th had two batteries which more or less = a normal battalion. Wierd. Bennet also controlled two other brigades - which I do not find in the OB at all - 44th Indian and 45th Indian - both with no arty. But 44th had a Machinegun Battalion. 27th also had a battalion of engineers and a battery of AT guns attached. It is shown as 27th AIF (++) Brigade - and reclassified as a true brigade so it will function that way with hard code. 22nd is 22nd AIF Brigade - also reclassified - lack of plusses meaning no artillery or engineer attachments.

Edit Edit: I found the 44th and 45th - not in Malaya but in India! What an OB.

Edit Edit Edit: Looks like the MG battalion is under Bennet as part of the AIF division - not attached to 44th Brigade. So I attach it to the 27th AIF (++) Brigade - in the same hex - making it the strongest formation in Malaya - on the main rail line blocking access to Singapore - backed up by two formerly absent Indian Brigades - in position to move north if conditions make that wise. A MG battalion is fully motorized and has 48 guns in 4 companies of 12 - .30s all.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 11/21/2007 7:40:51 PM >

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RE: RHS CVO level 7 - 11/21/2007 6:36:09 PM   
Mifune


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Joined: 4/28/2005
From: Florida
Status: offline 		Hipper is correct. "15th brigade (device 2394) should be with the 11th division at Alor star not Khota Baru" Jitra (where the 15th brigade is located) is in the same hex as Alor Star.

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RE: RHS CVO level 7 - 11/21/2007 6:58:58 PM   
el cid again

 

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Status: offline 		No wonder Kota is so hard to take.

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RE: RHS CVO level 7 - 11/21/2007 8:16:42 PM   
el cid again

 

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Status: offline 		Aside from various batteries attached to brigades (which are mostly named as an attachment with the Brigade name - but not in the case of 280 battery attached to Fortress Singapore)

I am adding IA 9th Division Artillery - as more or less a regiment:

it has a battalion of field guns
plus two batteries of field guns
plus a battalion of AT guns

which I am interpreting as 32 x 18 pounders, 8 x 25 pounders and 18 x 2 pdr ATG
entirely motorized in support

at Georgetown

I also added 3 HAA Regiment and moved 35th LAA Regiment - both to Singapore - but both are mobile - while the Singapore Fortress has/retains local AAA units (2 HAA batteries and an LAA Regiment).

< Message edited by el cid again -- 11/21/2007 8:18:52 PM >

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RE: RHS CVO level 7 - 11/21/2007 10:55:00 PM   
Hipper

 

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Status: offline 		Hi Cid


I'm getting my information from Brian P Farrel "the defence and fall" Singapore 1940-42

he reckons that during the Jitra battle (alor star) the defenders (11 division consisting of 15th and 6th brigades plus the 28th brought up from reserve)

in terms of artillery they had "more than 50 field guns and thirty six anti tank guns"

so 16 x 2 18/25 lbers for 155 & 122 FA reg 16 x 3.7 inch mountain guns for 22nd plus 36 2 pdr ATG 80th anti tank note there are some 2 pdrs in the Brigade make up (yes I know thats less than 50 guns but who knows what the other guns were)

so put that lot at Alor star at the start as 11th division artillery

add 16 18/25 lbers to the 8th & 22nd brigades but no anti tank guns split up the 122 FA reg between 12th brigade & singapore as you said & thats about right !

if I was making one brigade to have higher experience in malaya it would not be 28th alas( even if they are Gurkahs) - ambushed while taking up position in front of the Jitra position

it would be 12th brigade which actually trained in the jungle pre war!

ps 15th brigade had four infantry battalions

1st Leicesters 2/9th Jats 14th & 16 punjab

cheers

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RE: RHS CVO level 7 - 11/22/2007 1:11:13 AM   
el cid again

 

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Status: offline 		I have finished - but am out of time to upload - packaging now

I have several brigades with four battalions - several with three - and a couple with five - more at Singapore itself -

I included division assets with brigades (or Singapore)


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