Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Ike99


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It might also depend if Mr.Bush is seriously contemplating using nuclear weapons in airstrikes against Iran.

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No comment.

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ORIGINAL: golden delicious

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ORIGINAL: 17poundr

In modern Hinduism the 'Swastik' as it's called there, is considered the sun symbol of somekind... (I could be mixing things here).

This is the origin (more or less) of the symbol. Hitler borrowed it from Indian Aryan civilisation.

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The Skull symbol of the Totenkopf div, shoudnt be used though (imho)...

Why not? It just worries me that some people don't feel that they should be trusted to see Nazi symbolism in case they become magically brainwashed. It seems like an extension of the theory that the Germans were completely innocent and were just under the control of a handful of super-evil Nazis.

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ORIGINAL: Ike99

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Not all that different from what goes on now. There's a fair-sized school that adheres to such notions as (a) the Rape of Nanking didn't happen, (b) Japan was opposing White colonial aggression in Asia, and (c) the dropping of the atomic bombs was an indefensible war crime. In a sense, they might as well have won. They come close to writing the history books that way.

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It will be interesting what the history books in the US will read in 20 years on the war on terror as well.

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Guess that depends on whether we win, doesn't it?

It might also depend if Mr.Bush is seriously contemplating using nuclear weapons in airstrikes against Iran.

That will just go over reallll smooth in world opinion not to mention the history books no?

It won´t matter if they´re ¨bunker buster¨ nukes or whatever. You use the word ¨Nuclear Attack¨ and that´s all that needs to be said. The rest is just trimmings.

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..I take a more sympathetic view of it than that. After all, you wouldn't encourage a reformed alcoholic to keep a full liquor cabinet.

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ORIGINAL: Ike99

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Not all that different from what goes on now. There's a fair-sized school that adheres to such notions as (a) the Rape of Nanking didn't happen, (b) Japan was opposing White colonial aggression in Asia, and (c) the dropping of the atomic bombs was an indefensible war crime. In a sense, they might as well have won. They come close to writing the history books that way.

It will be interesting what the history books in the US will read in 20 years on the war on terror as well.

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LeMay et al weren't just killing Japanese because this was seen as a good in itself -- as the Germans were when they were killing the Jews.

And how many peasants were killed in Vietnam from US B52 saturation bombings in the densely populated Meking Delta and its purpose was....what? If there was a military objective to it I haven´t discovered it.

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ORIGINAL: Ike99

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Yeah -- but here in America, there's no real danger that we're going to become a genocidal fascist dictatorship.

(cough)
waterboarding
(cough)
Neocon Agenda
(cough)
Quantonimo Bay
(cough)
WMDs
(cough)
(cough)
Iraq
(cough)
Abu Gharib
(cough)
Fox News
(cough)
A New American Century
(cough)
secret prisons
(cough)

Wake up and smell the fascism mate. But as far as wargames go the symbols are non political and are only for historical purposes.

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ORIGINAL: Silvanski

What we do when we wargame is re-create events from the past with OOB's as accurate as they can get.
IMHO the use of SS rhunes is part of that, just like NKVD units.

We all have common sense to aknowledge the wrong which was done by such and such.

My mom, who lived through the occupation from 1940-1944 is not shocked by seeing swastikas depicted in movies, wargames and model airplanes. In her words "That was part of the stuff what was going on"

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ORIGINAL: sstevens06

Consider the richly-deserved fate of most of these SS formations/units in historically accurate late-WW2 scenarios: ground to pieces by massed Soviet forces, interdicted into oblivion by overwhelming Allied airpower, etc. No glory there...wouldn't you agree?

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ORIGINAL: Ike99

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..I take a more sympathetic view of it than that. After all, you wouldn't encourage a reformed alcoholic to keep a full liquor cabinet.

Colin, someone just doesn´t trust the Germans much do they!

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ORIGINAL: Silvanski



It would get quite absurd to have an OOB with a unit called
12th "not to be mentioned cuz it's politically incorrect but you know what kind of unit we're talking about" Division

To repeat history in a game is to be predictable.
If you wish to learn more about EA, feel free to pop over to the EA forums Europe Aflame Forums.

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ColinWright- I think with a bit of thought you'll realize the inaccuracy of this analogy. Whatever one might say about the military effectiveness or purpose of B-52 strikes on North Vietnam, it'd be a real stretch to argue that we carried them out because we thought that killing Vietnamese peasants was per se a good thing. Rightly or wrongly, morally or immorally, we thought of the raids as a means to the end of compelling North Vietnam to cease its attacks upon South Vietnam. The Germans did not kill Jews to get the US to make peace, Russia to make peace, or as a means to any other goal distinct from the murder itself. Killing Jews was an end in itself. This is where the comparison with the Holocaust really breaks down.

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One could easily compile similar lists for other countries. The massacre of Algerian protestors in France in the late fifties. The program of chemical sterilization (or whatever) for genetic defectives in Sweden in the sixties.

A few political actions you disagree with do not a fascist state make. In any case, there's nothing fascist at all about at least two-thirds of the items on your list.

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Silvanski-What we do when we wargame is re-create events from the past with OOB's as accurate as they can get.
IMHO the use of SS rhunes is part of that, just like NKVD units.

We all have common sense to aknowledge the wrong which was done by such and such.

My mom, who lived through the occupation from 1940-1944 is not shocked by seeing swastikas depicted in movies, wargames and model airplanes. In her words "That was part of the stuff what was going on"

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ORIGINAL: 17poundr

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As to the Totenkopf skull... What next??? Maybe 'consentration camp sim city'! How many can you incinerate a day??? With ofcourse the words 'arbeit macht frei', on the game cover with emaciated inmates in their striped shirts in the baground...

There is a limit to what is actually wize Gentlemen... I do not feel that folks in many parts of the world would understand somebody playing a game where SS Totenkopf deaths head units are romping through Europe... Why? Because unlike mosts Waffen SS units, who were simply elite soldiers, with some shootings of pow's, but this happened on all sides sometimes, ok?

But, Totenkopf was made up of the camp guard side of the SS, to proove that they too could fight, and fight they did, but were also most consistent in war crimes in Russia... Well, that's my humble oppinion... Do what you want, luckily for the Anglo - Americans, we have a system of goverment that let's us have a long degree of free speach... But there are places where one must use one's own judgement... Perhaps this is one of them???

Yours truly,

Mr Poundr.

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ORIGINAL: Ike99

...
My own country was throwing people out of airplanes 30 years ago over the Atlantic.
...

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17poundr-As to the Totenkopf skull... What next??? Maybe 'consentration camp sim city'! How many can you incinerate a day??? With ofcourse the words 'arbeit macht frei', on the game cover with emaciated inmates in their striped shirts in the baground...

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And which country was that?

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I wish that were true. Basically harmless to you and where you are, not where I am. Ever heard of Castro, Chavez, Che Guevara?

Well fortunately two of these are dead and one is on the way out. I do take your point- but on the whole real, thoroughbred communism has been given a complete testdrive by humanity, and they've opted to go for the economy model. We were never really able to get Fascism off the lot- and there's a temptation to go back and fire up the gas for another go.

I thought Che was the dead one. Castro and Chavez are still alive.

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ORIGINAL: Ike99

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And which country was that?

Argentina. The military dictatorship was torturing and throwing Communist out of planes, etc.

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And anyone who says Communism isn´t a threat and has run its course should stop into one of the football stadiums they fill up next time Chavez is in town.

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ORIGINAL: Ike99

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ColinWright- I think with a bit of thought you'll realize the inaccuracy of this analogy. Whatever one might say about the military effectiveness or purpose of B-52 strikes on North Vietnam, it'd be a real stretch to argue that we carried them out because we thought that killing Vietnamese peasants was per se a good thing. Rightly or wrongly, morally or immorally, we thought of the raids as a means to the end of compelling North Vietnam to cease its attacks upon South Vietnam. The Germans did not kill Jews to get the US to make peace, Russia to make peace, or as a means to any other goal distinct from the murder itself. Killing Jews was an end in itself. This is where the comparison with the Holocaust really breaks down.

Colin one can always find an excuse to do what they want no matter how criminal. I guarantee you if asked Hitler wouldn´t have said he was killing Jews just because he felt like it. That it was an ¨end in itself.¨ I not sure about the reasoning, I haven´t looked into the history of it actually but he would have had something. Regardless of his reason it was obviously a criminal act.

Now you recognize that as a criminal but you can´t recognize the bombing of Vietnamese civilians in Vietnam as criminal, why not? Because your an American? What does 3 million+ peasants killed by bombings in N.Vietnam have to do with military objectives?

The US carpet bombed N.Vietnam Colin with more bombs than in all of WW2! Question ...uhhh...yeah, I think so.

Like I said before, anyone can come up with an excuse for doing criminal activity but the bombings of N.Vietnam were definately a criminal act any way you slice it. You can´t see that because your own flag is obstructing your vision.

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Imagine 3 million+ Americans dead in bombings and some Arab telling you we thought it was legit way to get the USA to stop destroying Iraq. Doesn´t hold much water does it but that´s exactly what your saying with Vietnam!

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One could easily compile similar lists for other countries. The massacre of Algerian protestors in France in the late fifties. The program of chemical sterilization (or whatever) for genetic defectives in Sweden in the sixties.

A few political actions you disagree with do not a fascist state make. In any case, there's nothing fascist at all about at least two-thirds of the items on your list.

Well yeah your right, your country, my country, everyones country if it has a longer history than a week has done something very bad in its history. And that´s my point exactly, you ban one symbol from a wargame you need to ban them all because no one has a country with clean hands.

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Genocide? Let´s ban the crossed swords of the US Cavalry and custer for riding into indian villages and killing man woman and child.

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Not to pick on the US because all countries have these histories. My own country was throwing people out of airplanes 30 years ago over the Atlantic. Yeah they had a reason too, it was criminal of course and there is no excuse but yeah...they had a reason.

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Silvanski-What we do when we wargame is re-create events from the past with OOB's as accurate as they can get.
IMHO the use of SS rhunes is part of that, just like NKVD units.

We all have common sense to aknowledge the wrong which was done by such and such.

My mom, who lived through the occupation from 1940-1944 is not shocked by seeing swastikas depicted in movies, wargames and model airplanes. In her words "That was part of the stuff what was going on"

I agree completely. Historical context, not glorifying the criminal acts or symbols, not pushing any ideology. Perfectly acceptable in a wargame context...to me. I don´t see swasticas in wargames as opening Pandoras box in Germany. They already see them in movies and museums and such I´m sure Colin. They already see them in wargames I´m sure too Colin it´s just not advertised.

It just dumbs down the history to me Colin.

So you think the Swastica & SS symbol should be banned in wargames Colin? Maybe I´m misunderstanding you.

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ORIGINAL: Ike99

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17poundr-As to the Totenkopf skull... What next??? Maybe 'consentration camp sim city'! How many can you incinerate a day??? With ofcourse the words 'arbeit macht frei', on the game cover with emaciated inmates in their striped shirts in the baground...

Ahhh, come now. Such a thing is not a war game and a game of this type would be pushing an ideology. Wargames don´t do that.

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ORIGINAL: Ike99

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And which country was that?

Argentina. The military dictatorship was torturing and throwing Communist out of planes, etc.

And anyone who says Communism isn´t a threat and has run its course should stop into one of the football stadiums they fill up next time Chavez is in town.

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ORIGINAL: 17poundr

What??? Thacher bestowed 'numerous benefits on Britain'??? Should I take this as somekind of sarcasm? Yes, it must be sarcasm... As I remember it, M.Tacher managed to get Britain some new nuclear missiles that it needed like a second nose on a boxer... Oh, and there was the poll tax! What a winner! And she managed to change my Granfathers voting from a lifetime of voting Tory, to voting Lib-Dem...

I mean, she started the downgrading of British public health (wich is all the more sad as Britain was the first country in the world to get in a public health bill)...

And after her time as PM, she distinguished her self as the calendar girl of the tobakko industry... Oh, and good chum of Augusto Pinochet, the famous dictator who's regime torured, raped, kidnapped and killed countless Chilean's after taking the reigns of power in a shameful military overthrow of the legitimate goverment, and there is proof on recorded radio traffic from the day of the attack on the house of the Chilean parliament, where the legit leader Alliende and ohters, were defending their lives rifles and helmets donned and all... Against troops loyal to Pinochet, who had not only total manpower superiority, but also bombed the very place of Democracy... In the taped conversation, Pinochet says, "If he (Alliende), sues for peace and fly's out of Chile, we'll shoot the Bastard down before he get's out of Chile", or something very close to those words... So, he was also a direct murderer... Yepp, just one of Marvelous Maggies chums...

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As to the Totenkopf skull... What next??? Maybe 'consentration camp sim city'! How many can you incinerate a day??? With ofcourse the words 'arbeit macht frei', on the game cover with emaciated inmates in their striped shirts in the baground...

There is a limit to what is actually wize Gentlemen... I do not feel that folks in many parts of the world would understand somebody playing a game where SS Totenkopf deaths head units are romping through Europe... Why? Because unlike mosts Waffen SS units, who were simply elite soldiers, with some shootings of pow's, but this happened on all sides sometimes, ok?

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But, Totenkopf was made up of the camp guard side of the SS, to proove that they too could fight, and fight they did, but were also most consistent in war crimes in Russia... Well, that's my humble oppinion... Do what you want, luckily for the Anglo - Americans, we have a system of goverment that let's us have a long degree of free speach... But there are places where one must use one's own judgement... Perhaps this is one of them???

Yours truly,

Mr Poundr.

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ORIGINAL: 17poundr

What??? Thacher bestowed 'numerous benefits on Britain'??? Should I take this as somekind of sarcasm? Yes, it must be sarcasm... As I remember it, M.Tacher managed to get Britain some new nuclear missiles that it needed like a second nose on a boxer...

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Oh, and there was the poll tax!

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I mean, she started the downgrading of British public health

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As to the Totenkopf skull... What next??? Maybe 'consentration camp sim city'!

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ORIGINAL: Ike99

Colin one can always find an excuse to do what they want no matter how criminal. I guarantee you if asked Hitler wouldn´t have said he was killing Jews just because he felt like it. That it was an ¨end in itself.¨ I not sure about the reasoning, I haven´t looked into the history of it actually but he would have had something. Regardless of his reason it was obviously a criminal act.

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ORIGINAL: desert

I thought Che was the dead one. Castro and Chavez are still alive.

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ORIGINAL: 17poundr

For example, in the Italian campaign scenario, one get's to read that you are fighting the 'Hermann Göring' div, but in the Normandy scenario it's the '12th SS' for the Hitler Jugend div... I belive that both should be displayed, as this is how the Germans marked them themselves...