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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri

 
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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/29/2007 11:15:50 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Thanks for pointing that out, I apologize for being so drastically wrong. It's 275 x34% at start (93.5 per turn) then x294% on turn 48 (275 per turn, 550 per week). Buzz modded it to spread it out a little more. The Yak-9's don't actually start until turn 135 (Oct 42).

(in reply to SMK-at-work)
Post #: 91
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/30/2007 12:31:56 AM   
LLv34_Snefens


Posts: 254
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Aarhus, Denmark
Status: offline 		Remember that what is called Yak-9 in Fite really covers all versions of Yak-9 and Yak-3. Yak-1 is both Yak-1's and Yak-7.
LaGG-3 might also include early La-5 production in them I can't remember off the top of my head.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 92
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/30/2007 1:25:21 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Yes, I remember that from about 4 months ago, not to mess with the production numbers or something else would get thrown off.

Can you speak about why you didn't use the DNO production/EEV model? I guess it's been gone over before but some of us haven't been around here that long. I think it was because of the number of events available, as Fite was designed under COW with only 500.

Thanks.

(in reply to LLv34_Snefens)
Post #: 93
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/30/2007 1:57:58 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

Posts: 3396
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: New Zealand
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LLv34_Snefens

Remember that what is called Yak-9 in Fite really covers all versions of Yak-9 and Yak-3. Yak-1 is both Yak-1's and Yak-7.
LaGG-3 might also include early La-5 production in them I can't remember off the top of my head.


Yes I remember soething like that from your article on design decisions for FITE I think. I'd be surprised if there were any major errors....your research has proved pretty damned good so far

(in reply to LLv34_Snefens)
Post #: 94
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/30/2007 3:54:33 AM   
Fungwu

 

Posts: 161
Joined: 8/22/2007
Status: offline 		"So from what I read above, you are basically doing away with the production portion of the game and utilizing disbandable units. With personnel being the only item covered by the production model. So why not go one more step and do the same with personnel. Not every captured city should be a 5% decrease in personnel. DNO does a decent job of where the personnel show up. And when the soviets retake the hex the units will reappear as they liberate more people. "

Well yes you could make it more like DNO, but my brain hurts from trying to figure out a good way to do tank production, so I decided to leave personel alone. I guess the ultimate easy fix would be to give soviets historical production and just not alter it. Taking cities would then only count for victory points, and maybe with an EEV model torwards shock or other penalties.

"Looks like a decent idea, a lot of manual intervention by the player. Optimally the game system should take care of the management you are recommending. "

Optimally yes, but I always try to go for the simplest possible changes, and this was the best I could come up with. I'm not sure there is a ton of intervention. Evacuating your factories in the beginning, and then you have the hex based chart I described so you don't really have to remember anything. WIth production units appearing only 12 times in a 405 turn game I don't think it is really alot of intervention to model the production for the whole war.

Fungwu are you going to work on a mod to do you recommended changes?"

Well I would need a few things. Tanks would be the simplest to model since I have the historical production from that  website and the location of the factories. What I would need for tanks is to know how many tanks enter the game in normal units so I can subtract that from the historical production and figure out how many should be in the production units. The easy way, other than counting the tank content in every tank unit that enters the game, would be to trust the scenario designers when they say that production will be historical with historical german advances. That way all I would have to do is play a hotseat game, take all the objectives that were taken and then check the soviet production numbers and use those. I could then use the same numbers for artillery and air.

Using the easy way the last thing I would need to know is the location of Soviet air and artillery factories.

Actually, since I would first need to learn how to use the scenario editor, I was hoping you could do all the hard work Zort :)


"1/ It only inflicts a 5 turn produciton losss if factories are lost - ie if the production unit has to move to the 2nd factory hex that's 5 more turns....but the next unit arriving 34 turns later will get to the produciton hex 34 turns after the 1st one did - sure it will be 5 turns later than it would be otherwise, but the full produciton will still be arriving every 34 turns...albeit 5 turns later than it would be otherwise - so effectively only 5 turns production is lost.

IMO the effect of factory losss should be lost production of that factory forever, not just 5 turns - so if you had 4 factories and lost 1 then you should get only 75% production."

Well your right, I was partially aware of that this morning when I was first posted, but I had to leave so  I couldn't really wrap my mind around it. Here is a chart: The leftmost column is the number of the production unit, the middle column is the turn they would normally be disbanded, and the right hand column is the turn they would be disbanded if they had to wait 5 turns. As SMK correctly points out the difference between the turns in the middle column is 34, and the difference between the right column is also 34, meaning production is delayed, but not reduced as I had intended.

1st  T 34 T39
2nd T 68 T73
3rd T 102 T107
4th T 136 T141

This chart is what it should look like. Notice the difference between the time the production unit is disbanded in the right hand column is 39 turns instead of 34 turns. If you disbanded a 10,000 strong tank unit every 34 turns you would get 294 tanks a turn. If you disbanded the same unit every 39 turns you would get 256 tanks a turn.  A drop of about 13%.
1st  T34 T 39
2nd T68 T 78
3rd T102 T 117
4th T136 T156

Now look at the differenc between the columns, so first
39 vs 34 =5
68 vs 78 = 10
102 vs 117 = 15
136 vs 156 = 20

The solution is to number the production units #1 #2 #3 #4, the number of the unit is how many spaces(times 5 in our example) on the factory chart the unit has to travel for each empty factory.
So unit 1 arrives on turn 34. There is one empty space so it travel 5 hexes before disbanding on turn 39. Unit 2 arrives on turn 68 it must travel 2x5 or 10 spaces, so it disbands on turn 78. Unit 3 must travel 3x5 or 15 spaces disbanding in turn 117. And so on.

(the obivous downside here what happens when you get to the end of the war, unit number 12 is going to be walking for quite some time)




(in reply to SMK-at-work)
Post #: 95
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/30/2007 6:45:14 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

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Status: offline 		Yeah that's what I thought you would be trying to achieve, but I figured I should ask :)

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Post #: 96
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/30/2007 6:53:59 AM   
Fungwu

 

Posts: 161
Joined: 8/22/2007
Status: offline 		/" The production delay for moving factories is not long enough.

Looking at Factory 183 T34 Production figures from RKKA, production tailed off at Kharkov to 41 in October 41, then stopped altogether in November, and 25 from Nizhniy Tagil in December, 75 in January 42, 140 in Feb, 225 in March (more or less 100% pre shift production) - so From October to February it got about 1.25 months prodution at pre-shift level - ie it lost 3.75 months production - about 2/3rds the possible total."

I had thought about this as well, though for sake of space I did not post earlier. You can control the speed at which factories can be moved by changing the space between the end of the railhead in the urals and the hex which the factory has to be moved to occupy its place in the production chart. So for instance you want moving a factory to take 4 months, just put 34 spaces between the end of the rail head and the where the factory needs to go.

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Post #: 97
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/30/2007 12:15:21 PM   
SMK-at-work

 

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Status: offline 		Yeah...production spirals.....hmm.....I wonder if it would be easier to construct events - make factories immobile and check each turn to see if the factory is still in its city (ie it hasn't been disbanded).  If it is no longer there AND the city still belongs to the Sov's then reduce rail by 1000 for 20 turns and 30 turns later you get the replacement factory in Siberia? 

The current house rule for disbanding would apply - you can only disband if the unit is in supply - so no evacuating factories that are cut off - they have to stay and die.

The disbanding check could start only after a few turns have passed - so if you disband the factory very early then you don't get it back 30 turns later - you get it back 30 turns after the first turn of checking - probably start checking about end of July for some (Minsk, Kiev??), September for others a bit further back (Kharkov, Smolensk, Leningrad?) and so on?

Someone more au fait with the events system could comment on this....

(in reply to Fungwu)
Post #: 98
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/30/2007 5:51:27 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

make factories immobile and check each turn to see if the factory is still in its city (ie it hasn't been disbanded).  If it is no longer there AND the city still belongs to the Sov's then reduce rail by 1000 for 20 turns and 30 turns later you get the replacement factory in Siberia? 

The disbanding check could start only after a few turns have passed - so if you disband the factory very early then you don't get it back 30 turns later - you get it back 30 turns after the first turn of checking -



Thinking out loud ... it can't check to see if it's there, but if it is disbanded it could trigger a chain that would reduce rail cap and the entry of a new unit. If the germans destroy the unit the same chain would be triggered, if the germans occupy the city the chain could be canceled. On turn 1 the whole setup can be canceled, and then it can be activated on the turn of your choice. Now, if you disband it very early, it gets complex, but could be easy to put the unit in garrison until the turn you like (garrison units can't disband). So you actually couldn't disband it until the later turns. Then you need to have each unit in its' own formation (no problem for the soviets though, they got plenty of formation room).

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Post #: 99
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/30/2007 6:42:18 PM   
Fungwu

 

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Status: offline 		Well in DNO factories are locked and to activate them you choose a theater option. So you could tie all the effects you wanted to activating the theater option.

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Post #: 100
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 12/1/2007 2:03:29 AM   
Fungwu

 

Posts: 161
Joined: 8/22/2007
Status: offline 		Alright I got some facts and figures, and a new idea or 2.

Total FITE T34/76 production is 86,517

Total Historical T34/76 production is 33,345
In the actual campaign Kharkov factory was forced to evacuate and lost about 3.75 months of production. Stalingrad factory was destroyed around september 1942.
Had these factories not been disrupted and continued producing at the same rate total production would have been 39,943.

A lot less than 86,517!

Here is how I think tank production could be modelled.

Make 3 formations of units representing the production of Kharkov, Stalingrad, and all Gorky/Urals production.

Each unit in the formation will contain all the tanks produced by the respective factories over a certain timeperiod. Going with 3 months you would have about 25 units in each formation to cover tank production for the entire war. So a new unit would appear in the factory location every 3 months to be disbanded by the player into his ready pool.

If Kharkov is taken before its factories could be withdrawn (historically in early October I think) the Kharkov production unit formation is withdrawn. (note IF kharkov is successfully evacauted then its production units would have to start appearing in the urals)

If Stalingrad is ever taken, the Stalingrad production formation is withdrawn.

Capturing both cities at their historic dates would lead to historic tank production. Early captured would lead to reduced soviet tank production. Late or never capturing them would lead to increased production.

(in reply to Fungwu)
Post #: 101
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 12/1/2007 2:24:43 AM   
Fungwu

 

Posts: 161
Joined: 8/22/2007
Status: offline 		Fiddled around with numbers of fighter aircraft, here is what I found.

Total soviet fighter production for the war was 63,000 (sorry wikipedia was the best source I could find)

Total fighter production in FITE is 181,782 which incidentally is signifgantly more than the total soviet production of all aircraft combined of 157,000.

One interesting thing....

for T34's
33425 (historical) divided by 86517 (max possible) = 39% as in soviets need to lose 61% of production to equal historical amount.

for Fighters

63,000 (does anyone have a better source than wikipedia?)
divided by 181,782 (approxamate FITE total) = 35% as in soviets need to lose 65% of production to reach historical numbers.

It  appears FITE numbers are historic if German capture enough cities, but I disagree with the implied assumption that soviet production would be 250% higher if Germans didn't capture anything.

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Post #: 102
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 12/1/2007 2:48:47 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

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Status: offline 		Does the in game figure oinclude provision for loss of towns, remembering that although they might not have had tank factories they do still count - from another thread:

Town..............Date.......Hist Turn
Minsk............27-Jun-41....3
Smolensk.........16-Jul-41....8
Zaporozhe........18-Aug-41....17
Dneprpetrovsk....25-Aug-41....19
Kiev.............19-Sep-41....27
Orel.............03-Oct-41....30
Bryansk..........06-Oct-41....31
Kalinin..........13-Oct-41....33
Odessa...........16-Oct-41....34
Stalino..........21-Oct-41....36
Kharkov..........24-Oct-41....37
Rostov...........20-Nov-41....44
Sevastopol.......01-Jul-42....108
Voronesh.........06-Jul-42....109
Voroshilovgrad...18-Jul-42....113
Krasnodar........18-Jul-42....113

all are 5% reduction except Kharkov & Sevastopol 10%, so my take is that by T114 production is down to 39.5% of the theoretical figure.

IIRC the production figures in FITE are designed to include the actual date of loss of the towns to give the actual historical production.

All of which doesn't actually matter really anyway since you're proposing replacing the wole system

The only problem I have is with the 3 month production - IMO it's jsut too long & is building in another problem that doesn't need to be there.

The 2 formations of Soviet NKVD bprder regiments total 59 units, add in another 14 for the 14th army in the Arctic/Murmansk, 7 for the Karelian front and 7 for the Actic fleet then that's 87 Soviet unit slots freed up - plus a handful for the other 2 fleets and a couple of coastal defence/fortified region units in the far north that would be removed too.

Possibly 1 or 2 of the Karelian front unis might need to be included elsewhere, so perhaps 90 is a good number to work on.

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Post #: 103
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 12/1/2007 3:03:38 AM   
Fungwu

 

Posts: 161
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Status: offline 		"The only problem I have is with the 3 month production - IMO it's jsut too long & is building in another problem that doesn't need to be there."

Well remember, we have 3 factories, so if you stagger them it is really new tanks every 1 month. Besides, 1942 T34 production is 12,000+ so soviet player can burn through 115 turn and stay even. Oh and I checked out the number of assigned T34s, it is 8,209. So subtracting that from total production, you get 25,116 T34's appearing in production units instead of normal units. So the soviet player still gets about 1/3 of his T34's same as normal.

Thinking about it, there are 47 months in the war. If you narrowed it down to Stalingrad and Urals+Gorky factories you would need 94 units to do monthly production, which would be possible.



Oh, and NKVD border regiment are only 40 I think, those other 16 are NKVD rifle divisions.

(in reply to SMK-at-work)
Post #: 104
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 12/1/2007 3:27:07 AM   
Zort

 

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From: Colorado Springs, CO
Status: offline 		Remember the hit the soviets start with in production: 34% on turn one of base, then 5% loss for each city lost historically, till turn 48. Then I changed the soviet production from 300% to 200% of the current rate (not the base). On turn 78 by 150%.

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Post #: 105
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 12/1/2007 11:21:24 AM   
vahauser


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From: Texas
Status: offline 		Zort,

I'm not certain that any changes need to be made until more testing is done.  How many people have actually played the scenario to completion?

Also, the point has been made that no game is going to recreate history.  Every game is going to be different from history.

I think the scenario should be left alone for a while until more test data has been accumulated.  I definitely do not like the proposals I see here regarding cutting units from the OOBs. 

I say leave the scenario alone for now.  Let more test results be evaluated.

_____________________________


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Post #: 106
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 12/1/2007 11:41:46 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

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From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		Vahauser the scenario in hte game isn't geing changed, and Zort's changes are being tested as we speak :)

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Post #: 107
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 12/1/2007 12:38:46 PM   
el cid


Posts: 186
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Status: offline 		Can we get back to the AAR?

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Post #: 108
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 12/1/2007 8:18:04 PM   
Fungwu

 

Posts: 161
Joined: 8/22/2007
Status: offline 		"Can we get back to the AAR?"

Um where were we?

It has been fairly quiet lately

The battle lines run from east of Leningrad, South down thourhg Vishny Volocheck and Kalinin to just east of Moscow. Here is were Karri is making a big effort to slowly push into Moscow. He has about 4 hexes to go, but I have a a lot more artillery than he does, and it looks to be a bloodbath.

The line then goes South through Tula then back just North of Bryansk, through the middle of Pripet Marshes, down to the STalin line and the South BUg.

It has been pretty quiet along here. The only action is on the S. Bug west of Odessa, where I am making a little attack to straighten out the lines.

Hopefullly Karri can post a screenshot or two.

(in reply to el cid)
Post #: 109
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 12/1/2007 10:50:15 PM   
Karri

 

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Status: offline 		I keep pushing on, but my artillery was 'punished' to such point during the Axis drive to Moscow that it is almost non-existant. I am waiting for the production to kick in so that the artillery will be rebuilt. Before that all I can do is a slow push tying down as many Axis units as possible.

I do have other plans as well, but due to still only having 6000 rail capacity the buildup is not as fast as I'd like.

The only good thing is the drive to Turkey. Just captured Ankara so the turks will probaply be out of the game soon...not that it really changes anything.

(in reply to Fungwu)
Post #: 110
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 12/2/2007 10:20:52 PM   
Karri

 

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Status: offline 		The attack doesn't seem to proceed one bit. I blame it on lack of artillery. I am wondering if I should do a complete re-organisation of my frontline. Withdrawing all support unit(eng, AA, artillery etc), withdrawing tank units and all 'shock', 'guard' etc troops, just manning the line with rifle divisions/brigades. Then mass the units on my point of attack...

Bu the problem with that is that my ral capacity is 6000...I need to capture Moscow. And we're back to square one. So I went with another option: attack elsewhere as well...at least the Axis have tied down most of their artillery in Moscow. Although they still have plenty of arty in their HQ's.


Well at least the air war is going well. Any Axis air unit daring to enter Moscow area is destroyed.

The axis are attacking in few sectors, but those are just local counter-attacks...casualties, but who cares about those.


(in reply to Karri)
Post #: 111
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 12/4/2007 7:14:11 PM   
Karri

 

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Status: offline 		Turn 54:
I activated the Winter Offensive option and things are finally starting to proceed. I am now only attacking in Bryansk area and building up the strenght elsewhere. The Axis are keeping their artillery in Moscow which stops me from attacking there.

Anyways, in Bryansk there's some succees. Although casualties for both sides are pretty horrible. I managed to attack his artillery pretty heavily this turn, so hopefully the attack can continue with greater speed in the coming turns. Unless of course he deploys his reserves which he surely does have hidden somewhere in there.








Then there's Turkey...or isn't since it surrendered to the migthy forces of the Red Army. I managed to get through the Bosborus(or whatever it is) and also blew up all the railines to Istanbul so I will be advancing quite freely for the next few turns. This does place the Romanian front in a whole new danger, and will tie down considerably mroe Axis forces.


But I do still lack the strenght here for a full offensive. Perhaps soon...



(in reply to Karri)
Post #: 112
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 12/5/2007 4:26:03 AM   
Fungwu

 

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Status: offline 		Karri's attacks have become very strong in the Bryansk area. I have been doing okay in presenting a good line each turn, and I have more fresh reinforcements to meet his next attack. Although casualties will be heavy, I don't expect a big Soviet breakthrough.

I do have some strategic reserves but I am not sure just where to send them. I might want to send a strong force to eliminate his men coming up from Istanbul before they become too strongly established. There are one or two other spots in the South where a limited offensive might be useful, otherwise I could send more men to Byransk and some other spots up north to repel Karri's attacks.

(in reply to Karri)
Post #: 113
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 12/10/2007 10:53:18 PM   
cesteman


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From: San Luis Obispo, CA
Status: offline 		updates?

(in reply to Fungwu)
Post #: 114
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 12/11/2007 2:52:51 AM   
Fungwu

 

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Status: offline 		We are on turn 61.

Karri has kept attacking for many turns now. I have been pushed back in a couple of places but for the most part my line has remained intact across all fronts.

Casaulties on both sides have been huge. Karri has told me he is about out of steam, but he might just be trying to lull me into a false sense of security.

The last numbers we exchanged were 105,000 lost rifle squads for him, and 33,000 for me.
He now has a firm grip on air superority and I have only a few fighters left.

Right now Karri's winter offensive will run out in 2 or 3 turns, lowering his shock and supply.

Long term german outlook is bleak. Karri's production is set to rise by 50% on turn 78, raising his rifle placements close to 2000. He is also set to recieve a whole bunch of tank brigades and other reinforcements soon.

I am contemplating an all out, last ditch offensive, but I don't think it will work and I will be forced to concede soon.



(in reply to cesteman)
Post #: 115
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 12/13/2007 1:32:05 AM   
Karri

 

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Status: offline 		Turns 43-62

The Soviet winter offensive has so far been a failure. I have been able to advance a little in the points of pressure, but nothing significant has happened. I re-captured Tula and Kalinin but that means nothing since I won't be regaining the production. I did manage to increase the Axis loss penalty to 100(from roughly 60 that it was), while my own loss penalty has been hovering over and under 300.

Frontal attack on Moscow was a bloodpath, and hasn't resulted in much gains. Kalinin was captured by a few lucky attacks.

Most gains were made in Bryansk, where majority of losses has been exchanged. The Axis are forced back with a constant rate of 1-2 hexes a turn. Which of course is not enough for a brekathrough. However there are plenty of armored formations in the fight which means that the Axis reserves are pretty much used up, and at least I managed to bloody them a little.

There is however a difference to be seen on turn 62 compared to pre-offensive maps, Moscow is now starting to look like a bulge...

Anyways, I did manage to finally find a break in the Axis lines in Bryansk on turn 62, but it seems like there are enough idle units to fill that point...and with that the offensive will come to an end. As I am now under 60k in rifle squads I need to rebuild before the Axis attack in the Summer. Of course smal spoiling attacks can be kept up...

As Fungwu said, air is totally under my control. Air superiority numbers are something like 90 vs 6...any and all axis aircraft that come within range of my fighters are shot down...few turns back I wiped out 8 squadrons that dared to enter Smolensk. I dunno if the interdiction is hurting his troops. But I do hope so.

Istanbul was captured and I managed to capture a little of ground, but then things got quiet there. I think axis forces are pretty much tied up there aswell.


Regarding the Axis Summer option...I have my doubts. I think it will fail...probaply turn into a similar bloodpath like my offensive was, with the exception that the Axis won't recover from it. And I suppose he will be hitting my hardest point...since if he rails significant forces to South, he will leave Moscow vulnerable. And with all the units I have there, I am sure to attack. I have plenty of land to give up in South should he manage to break my line there, which is doubtful. I have plenty of ground to give up pretty much everywhere actually, and from now on it is a war of attrition.


(in reply to Fungwu)
Post #: 116
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 12/16/2007 11:30:21 PM   
Karri

 

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Status: offline 		Turn 63:
Well, the offensives are for the most part over now. That small breach in Axis lines still exists north of Bryansk/southwest of Moscow. Should I be able to push a little further then I would be able to cut one railroad leading to Moscow, which would mean that there would be only one left. Althought, that's the case right now since the other railroad is mostly of broken rail. But it would mean that I might be able to cut that remaining railroad if I just continue to push, I think the replacement rate would allow me to do that...
I do suspect the Axis have to retreat a bit, maybe even abandon Moscow...

Anyways, that lucky breach at least makes it look like the Winter Offensive was worth it. Similar breach from north would mean that the Axis units in Moscow would be pocketed...but unfortunately that didn't happen.

Loss penalties are 97 Axis to 305 Soviet.



(in reply to Karri)
Post #: 117
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 12/17/2007 1:22:18 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

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From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		go any of those original airborne brigades left with airdrop capacity??!! :)

(in reply to Karri)
Post #: 118
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 12/17/2007 2:18:06 AM   
Fungwu

 

Posts: 161
Joined: 8/22/2007
Status: offline 		"I do suspect the Axis have to retreat a bit, maybe even abandon Moscow..."

Have to abandon Moscow? Like hell I will!

(in reply to SMK-at-work)
Post #: 119
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 12/17/2007 2:27:46 AM   
Karri

 

Posts: 1137
Joined: 5/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fungwu

"I do suspect the Axis have to retreat a bit, maybe even abandon Moscow..."

Have to abandon Moscow? Like hell I will!



I can dream, can't I? :D


quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

go any of those original airborne brigades left with airdrop capacity??!! :)


I did but I wasted it in Rumania...because I just wanted to drop it somewhere :)

< Message edited by Karri -- 12/17/2007 2:28:17 AM >

(in reply to Fungwu)
Post #: 120
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