Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
7.13.2 Rebase Overrun Units Digression

Rebasing Overrun Units digressions happen frequently in the sequence of play. They occur during overruns and also what I think of as pseudo-overruns. The latter occur when an air or naval unit is in a hex, without a land unit present, and control of the hex changes to the other side. All of a sudden, the units are in enemy territory and have to be rebased by the owning player.

Rebasing an air unit is easy, though it is possible that no friendly hex is within range and the air unit is destroyed. That is why a rebase digression is always followed by a Scrap Units digression, just in case.

Rebasing naval units can be a lot more complex. Naval units can be intercepted and then they will have to “fight through” the enemy units. That means an entire naval combat sequence has to be executed. And naval combats can have multiple rounds. Naval combats can also cause naval units to abort, so there might be a Naval Combat Abort digression to execute as well.

That can spread out naval combats in all the sea areas it goes through. But maybe the "Naval Combat Abort digression" already says that.

quote:

7.13.3 Return to Base Digression

Return to Base digressions primarily occur during air-to-air and anti-aircraft combat, when a player has to abort one of his air units as the result of an irritating die roll by his opponent. The only other place they are used is when forming Vichy France and the French air and naval units at sea return to base. Abort results from naval combats are not included in this group, but instead are processed as a Naval Combat Abort digression.

Usually returning an air unit to base is not difficult, though it is possible that there might not be a friendly hex to which it can return. Therefore a Scrap Units digression is always executed after a return to base digression, so players can decide whether to scrap any destroyed units or not.

7.13.4 Scrap Units Digression

Scrap Units digressions are the most prevalent digressions in the game. Basically, every time a unit is destroyed the owner has the option of immediately scrapping it, or not.

Only dated units can be scrapped after destruction, see 13.6.9, 5th para, 3rd sentence. MIL or TERR, or Reserve units can never be scrapped. Partisans also can't be scrapped.

quote:

Because this comes up so often, players are apt to become annoyed at having to make this decision. Despite that, MWIF follows RAW diligently in its implementation of this rule, since decisions about scrapping units can have such a major impact on success and failure in the game.

IMO this is important to say that scrapped unit never go back in the game. Scrapping is irrevocable.

quote:

7.13.5 Naval Interception Digression

Naval Interception digressions are the second most common digression, or perhaps the most common. Virtually every time a naval unit enters a sea area which contains enemy units, a naval interception digression is executed by the program. That provides the enemy of the moving units the opportunity to intercept, or not.

Frequently a naval interception digression will evolve into a naval combat. Naval combats can produce aborting naval units, which, because they are moving, can also be intercepted. Though each naval combat is run through to conclusion before any aborted naval units are moved, it is still common for a queue of aborting naval units to build up. Those units are moved in the order that they entered the queue (first in, first out), though units aborting from the most recent combat abort before units from combats that were completed earlier. The naval unit(s) in the list which is(are) first to move is(are) always the ‘oldest’ aborting unit(s) from the most recent naval combat.

Naval units aborting from naval combat are processed using a Naval Combat Abort digression (see the section that follows). A Scrap Units digression is executed after each naval combat, so that is often the last task performed in a naval interception digression.

7.13.6 Naval Combat Abort Digression

Naval Combat Abort digressions only occur when processing the Naval Abort Queue. That queue is maintained by the program and has naval units added to it when either an abort result is received during a naval combat round or a voluntary abort by an entire side at the end of a naval combat round.

The units in the Naval Abort Queue are sometimes moved as individual units or a as group of naval units. A player is able to combine two or more naval units in the Naval Abort Queue if those units aborted from the same naval combat during the same round. That happens most often when an entire side voluntarily aborts at the end of a combat round. However, it can also occur if there was more than 1 naval unit aborted during a single combat round as a result of die rolls.

Note that if a combat result precipitated an abort and then the player decides to voluntarily abort at the end of the same round, the combat abort(s) is( are) merged into the voluntarily abort and the naval units are all considered equivalent a s far as moving them is concerned.

If the player decides to move a group of aborted naval units, then they may start in different sea box sections. However, the calculation of the movement points they have, as a group, is the determined by the unit with the fewest movements points.

This is not possible.
Units that start in different boxes can't move as a group.
If they start in different boxes, their movement can't be the same "naval move". See 11.4.1, part (c). So they are forced to move separately, and to be intercepted separately, and to choose their port separately. They can head for the same port, but they will execute 2 naval moves to do it.

quote:

For example, a naval unit with 6 MPs in the 4 section box would have 2 movement points available, while a convoy with 3 MPS in the 0 section box would have 3 movement points available. If those two units moved as a group, they would have 2 movements points available. They would also be required to be returning to the same port.

A naval combat abort digressions continues executing until there are no longer any units in the Naval Abort Queue.

7.13.7 Correct Overstacking Digression

A Correct Overstacking digression does just that. At numerous points in the sequence of play the program checks to make sure no overstacking has occurred. For instance, this is done after the weather has changed, and after a successful carpet bombing attack. If any hex is overstacked, the program determines which major power gets to select the unit(s) to destroy and displays the Over-Stacked Hex form (see section 8.7.2.34 for details on using that form) so the decision maker can choose which unit(s) to destroy.

Isn't this disgression also checked after each step or phase ? For example, if an HQ moves, and that it had an extra air unit stacked with it, then at the end of the land movement step, there is an air unit to destroy ? (this was judged this way in the FAQ, see Q2.3-1.

quote:

This digression is over once no overstacked hexes remain.

7.13.8 Collapsing Vichy France

A Collapsing Vichy France digression only occurs once per game, if that. Basically the process for collapsing Vichy France is the same as for conquering a country. The reason it is a digression, instead of part of the Conquest phase, is that it occurs during an Axis Land Movement phase. As soon as an Axis unit moves into Vichy France, the Collapsing Vichy France digression is executed. Once Vichy France is ‘conquered’, the digression is over and the game returns to the Axis land movement phase.

It can also occur during the rail movement phase, or during nearly any air mission (see FAQ Q17.4-4).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Paul already mentioned that rail movement can cause Vichy to collapse. But air missions? That is news to me.

quote:

My overstacking example is not meant to be an exhaustive list of where the checks are made.

I disagree about combining units that are aborting. I understand fully that when voluntarily moving naval units, those that start in different section boxes can not be combined. That is how the code is written. But for aborting units, I am rewriting all that (CWIF) code presently. It seems to me that if two naval units are engaged in the same combat and both receive abort results in the same round, they should be able to abort together, regardless of the sea box section from which they started - the restrictions on range would apply, as I described.

quote:

I am ambivalent (haven't given it much thought) as to how to handle a group of units that voluntarily abort. I guess my inclination would be to impose the constraint that they have to be in the same sea box section in order to travel as a group.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Today's installment of new text for the Player's Manual.
=======
7.12 Vichy Declaration Subphases

During this phase, if the an Axis major power has an in supply land unit in Paris and France is not conquered, and Vichy has not yet been declared, the Axis power that controls Paris may declare the formation of the Vichy Government. Should that decision be taken, then the program executes the following subphases in the order shown.

This is not the Axis powert hat controls Paris that may declare Vichy :
RAW 17.1 says :
***************************************
An Axis major power can choose to install a Vichy Government if one of its in-supply land units occupies Paris in a peace step and France is not conquered. If more than one Axis major power occupies Paris, then Germany has first choice as to whether it wishes to establish a Vichy government.
***************************************
So if 1 IT unit enters Paris before 1 German unit does, when Paris is defeated, then the Paris hex goes to Italian control, with 1 italian and 1 German unit in it. But RAW says that in that case Germany have 1st choice at Vichy declaration.

quote:

7.12.1 Determine Control of French Countries (RAC 17.2)

This subphase asks the Axis major power if he wants to declare Vichy France. If the answer is yes, then the program generates random numbers to decide which of the countries that France controls will go to Vichy France (the Axis side) and which will become Free French (the Allied side).

Not "countries", but "administrative groups". Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia are 3 minor countries, but they are a single Administrative Group by 17.2, so they change control as a whole and not separately.

quote:

The French player then gets to choose a new home country for France (i.e., for Free France).

The French player may not be able to choose a new home country, because there are no Minor Countries left in Free France control (the new home country can't be a Territory such as New Caledonia for instance). In that case, 17.2 has Free France completely conquered immediately. This mean that Vichy France continues to exist, but Free France is completely conquered. The FAQ also says "If and when Free France is created and then immediately conquered, it can be re-created only by Collapsing Vichy. You liberate France (which then replaces any existing Free France) by retaking Paris." (See "Vichy French Collapse" in 17.4, 3rd paragraph, last sentence.

quote:

Once all the house keeping tasks have been performed and the French player has chosen his new home country, the game advances to the next subphase.

7.12.2 Move Non-French Land & Air Units (RAC 17.3 paragraph 1)

As the name for this section indicates, during this subphase the program moves all non-French land and air units that are in Vichy controlled hexes to the Relocate Stack. Once all such units have been placed in the Relocate Stack, , the program executes a Relocate digression so the major powers that own those units can move them to the nearest friendly hex.

After the Relocate digression has been completed, the game advances to the next subphase.

7.12.3 Move Non-French Naval Units (RAC 17.3 paragraph 2)

During this subphase the program moves all non-French naval units that are in Vichy controlled ports to the Rebase Stack. Once all such units have been placed in the Rebase Stack, , the program executes a Rebase digression so the major powers that own those units can move them to a friendly port. As usual, rebasing naval units may be intercepted and a naval combat necessary. After the Rebase digression has been completed, the game advances to the next subphase..

Double range rebase.

quote:

7.12.4 Return French Units at Sea to Land (RAC 17.3 paragraph 3)

During this subphase, the program moves all French units at sea, both air and naval, into the Return To Base Stack. Once all such units have been placed in the Return To Base Stack, , the program executes a Return To Base digression so the Axis major power that declared Vichy France can move them to the nearest hex that is controlled by either Vichy France or Free France.

Note that the Axis player is making these decisions and though he is constrained to place these units in the nearest French hex (specifically a port for naval units), he might have two or more from which to choose. This means he might be able to move them to a Vichy France/Axis controlled hex instead of a Free France/Allied controlled hex. If the units at sea are not within range of a French hex, they are destroyed and a Scrap Units digression performed - after the Return To Base digression has been completed

This subphase is the one exception in the game where moving naval units can not be intercepted. Partly that is because at this time it is not clear to which side the moving naval units belong. Once the Return To Base digression has been completed, the game advances to the next subphase..

Aren't they simply French ? Before they arrive in Vichy or Free French ports, they are French, aren't they ?

quote:

7.12.5 Move French Land and Air Units from Axis Territory (RAC 17.3 paragraph 4)

During this subphase the program moves all French land and air units in Axis controlled hexes, that are not part of Vichy France, into the Relocate Stack. Once all such units have been placed in the Relocate Stack, , the program executes a Relocate digression so the Axis major power that declared Vichy France can move them to the nearest hex that is controlled by Vichy France. Also at this time, if there are any French partisans in Vichy France, they are destroyed (removed from the game).

By Vichy France or Free France (See 17.3 French Units, 4th paragraph, 1st sentence).

quote:

Once the Relocate digression has been completed, the game advances to the next subphase.

7.12.6 Move French Naval Units from Axis Territory (RAC 17.3 paragraph 4)

During this subphase the program moves all French naval units in Axis controlled hexes, that are not part of Vichy France, into the Rebase Stack. Once all such units have been placed in the Rebase Stack, , the program executes a Rebase digression so the Axis major power that declared Vichy France can move them to the nearest port that is controlled by Vichy France.

Double range rebase. I don't know if it is worth mentionning.

quote:

As usual, rebasing naval units may be intercepted and a naval combat necessary. Once the digression has been completed, the game advances to the next subphase.

7.12.7 Destroy French Units (RAC 17.3 paragraph 5)

During this subphase the program identifies all the French units that are in hexes controlled by major powers on the Allied side (other than Free France). Those major powers are given the opportunity of destroying none, any, or all of the French units in hexes they control. If an Allied major power destroys any French units, Vichy France becomes hostile to that major power.

Note that this subphase occurs before French units in Allied territory are moved to French territory (i.e., in the next two subphases).

If any units are destroyed, a Scrap Units digression is executed and after it is completed, the game advances to the next subphase.

7.12.8 Move French Land and Air Units from Allied Territory (RAC 17.3 paragraph 5)

During this subphase the program moves all French land and air units in Allied controlled hexes, that are not part of Free France, into the Relocate Stack. Once all such units have been placed in the Relocate Stack, , the program executes a Relocate digression so the Axis major power that declared Vichy France can move them to the nearest hex that is controlled by either Free France or Vichy France.

Once the Relocate digression has been completed, the game advances to the next subphase.

7.12.9 Move French Naval Units from Allied Territory (RAC 17.3 paragraph 5)

During this subphase the program moves all French naval units in Allied controlled hexes, that are not part of Free France, into the Rebase Stack. Once all such units have been placed in the Rebase Stack, , the program executes a Rebase digression so the Axis major power that declared Vichy France can move them to the nearest port that is controlled by either Free France or Vichy France.

As usual, rebasing naval units may be intercepted and a naval combat necessary. Once the digression has been completed, the game advances to the next subphase.

7.12.10 Move French Land & Air Units from Off-map Pools (RAC 17.3 paragraph 6)

Provided that the optional rule Pilots is being used, this phase starts with the program checking how many pilots Vichy France has available, either in production or previously owned by France. Against that number is compared the number of air units in the Vichy France Air Reserve (previously the French Air Reserve) plus those in production. If there are fewer pilots than air units, the Vichy France player gets to choose to which air units to assign pilots. Piloted air units go into the Setup pool to be setup in the next subphase. Excess air units are placed in the Free French force pool. Excess pilots are simply destroyed.

Next, the program goes through all the French non-naval units that are in the production pool and decides what should happen to them. Most go into the Setup pool to be setup in the next subphase. Oil resources and factories that are being repaired stay in the production pool but become controlled by Vichy France.

French militia and reserve units, both those on the map or those off the map, go into the Free France force pool, unless they are suppose to arrive in a specific city and that city is held by the enemy. In which case, they are placed in the Reserve pool.

After these housekeeping tasks are finished, the game advances to the next subphase.

These were RAC 17.3 paragraph 6 thru 7 IMO here, not only RAC 17.3 paragraph 6.

quote:


7.12.11 Place French Units onto Map (RAC 17.3 paragraph 6)

During this subphase, the Vichy France player gets to place any units from the Setup pool onto the map in Vichy Metropolitan France. The standard setup tray is used. Once the Vichy France player clicks on the End of Phase button on the main form, the game advances to the next subphase.

7.12.12 Remove French Units from Map (RAC 17.3 paragraph 7)

During this subphase the program goes through each of the countries controlled by Vichy France, other than Vichy Metropolitan France, and lets the Axis major power that declared Vichy France decide which of the land and air units in those countries should stay on the map. Half, rounding down, have to be removed. Those go into the Free French force pool. After every Vichy controlled country has been processed, the game advances to the next subphase.

Once again, this is not "Countries", but "Administrative Groups" that are processed by this rule.

quote:

7.12.13 Determine Vichy French and Free French Units (RAC 17.3 paragraphs 8 thru 11)

During this subphase all French units on the map in Vichy territory, in the production pool, repair pool, and construction pool, become Vichy French units.

Then the program removes half of the Free French units from the force pool (territorial units are not affected). Once the Free French force pool has been cut in half, the program displays the remaining force pool to the Free France player. Unless DeGaulle is already on the map and in an Allied controlled hex, that HQ unit is placed in the Free France force pool.

Once these housekeeping tasks are completed, the formation of Vichy France is complete and the game advances to the next phase (Liberation).

The program should keep the units removed from the force pool aside, to be ready to put half of them back in the Force pool when France is liberated.

Also, there lots are double commas ", ," in those texts.

Once again, huge effort from you to break down RAW 17 into small pieces.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Paul already mentioned that rail movement can cause Vichy to collapse. But air missions? That is news to me.

New to me too. I learned that during the FAQ creation.
This is
Q17.4-4>
Q1: Do you apply the effects of Vichy collapse the instant an axis unit crosses the border into Vichy, or at some other time?
Q2: May an axis unit collapse Vichy by moving into it in the Rail Movement step?
Q3: May an axis Air Unit unit collapse Vichy by moving into it?

Asnwer>
Q1: Instantly. Date 29/12/2007
Q2: Yes.
Q3: Yes. Date 07/03/2008

quote:

My overstacking example is not meant to be an exhaustive list of where the checks are made.

I disagree about combining units that are aborting. I understand fully that when voluntarily moving naval units, those that start in different section boxes can not be combined. That is how the code is written. But for aborting units, I am rewriting all that (CWIF) code presently. It seems to me that if two naval units are engaged in the same combat and both receive abort results in the same round, they should be able to abort together, regardless of the sea box section from which they started - the restrictions on range would apply, as I described.

I think that all normal rules about being in different sections still apply, even during the naval combat. That is, aborting units can't abort together if they were from separate sea box sections.
Otherwise, what would also prevent you from shifting units from a sea boxes section to another to sea boxes section at the end of the combat ? If ships from different sea box sections can meet & mix for abort, why can't they meet & mix after the combat and go from 1 sea box section to another ?

The WiFZen for me is that the naval combat represents all the engagements that took place during that lapse of time of the turn -- 2 months -- in that sea area, but I don't think that it means that all ships from the same side actualy joined up at any time. They don't join up, they fight the enemy at different moments. It is kind of the Coral Sea for example. The Shoho is in a Fleet in a sea box, and the Shokaku & Zuikaku are in another. If the Shoho must abort, she aborts independently from any ships that is in the Shokaku & Zuikaku fleet. But both engagnements are during the same naval combat.

The only rule that I think is not 100% clear from RAW is for CVP rebasing. CVP from a sea box section CV should not be able to rebase to a CV in another sea box section after Port Attack or Naval air combat IMO, but I don't think that you can find it into RAW.

For the abort, this is the only way it can work, because a naval movement can't be with units from different sea box sections, so the ships originating from different sea box sections that have to abort have to move with separate naval moves.

quote:

I am ambivalent (haven't given it much thought) as to how to handle a group of units that voluntarily abort. I guess my inclination would be to impose the constraint that they have to be in the same sea box section in order to travel as a group.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I changed to Administrative Groups for the first parargraph, but not elsewhere. That is still somewhat ambiguous because it doesn't mention countries that France has conquered prior to Vichy being declared. But there is an excess of detail in this section already. Partially I have written so much because it is very hard to figure out when reading RAW.

quote:


Double commas?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
When, exactly, do you see an air unit causing Vichy France to collapse?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
When, exactly, do you see an air unit causing Vichy France to collapse?

Well, a He111 rebasing from Paris to Turin, flying over Vichy for example.
Or a Ju88 ground striking Spaniards in the Pyreneans, taking off from Bayonne and crossing Metropolitan vichy France on its path.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I changed to Administrative Groups for the first parargraph, but not elsewhere. That is still somewhat ambiguous because it doesn't mention countries that France has conquered prior to Vichy being declared. But there is an excess of detail in this section already. Partially I have written so much because it is very hard to figure out when reading RAW.

I don't know for the player manual, but the game has to deal with administrative groups when RAW requires dealing with administrative groups. This is important, as a lot of countries can be contained in a single administrative group.

quote:


Double commas?

Yes.
Comma : ,
Double comma : , ,

There are lots of places in the Vichy paragraphs where you wrote ", , ", instead of ", " I believe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
7.11 Land Combat Resolution Subphases

Oh, I forgot.
Somewhere in there, preferably between 7.11.4 and 7.11.5 (see RAW 17.5), there should be the "Defect Check", where the game looks if any defending unit defects. Defects can happen with Vichy French land units. (RAW should also have this rule apply to italians ).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I changed to Administrative Groups for the first parargraph, but not elsewhere. That is still somewhat ambiguous because it doesn't mention countries that France has conquered prior to Vichy being declared. But there is an excess of detail in this section already. Partially I have written so much because it is very hard to figure out when reading RAW.

I don't know for the player manual, but the game has to deal with administrative groups when RAW requires dealing with administrative groups. This is important, as a lot of countries can be contained in a single administrative group.

quote:


Double commas?

Yes.
Comma : ,
Double comma : , ,

There are lots of places in the Vichy paragraphs where you wrote ", , ", instead of ", " I believe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
When, exactly, do you see an air unit causing Vichy France to collapse?

Well, a He111 rebasing from Paris to Turin, flying over Vichy for example.
Or a Ju88 ground striking Spaniards in the Pyreneans, taking off from Bayonne and crossing Metropolitan vichy France on its path.

The FAQ has this Q & A that helps :

Q17.4-2>
Collapsing Vichy - You may not enter a neutral Major Power on your side. How could Axis units enter Metropolitan Vichy France to collapse it?

Answer>
Vichy rules override standard neutral entry rules. Date 29/12/2007

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Patrice,

Your comment on section 7.12.5 about French air & land units in Axis hexes can go to Vichy or Free France territory let me fix a bug from CWIF. The code had restricted those units to relocating to Vichy France only. Thanks.

I wrote most of the sections of 7.12 by reading the code and translating it into English. I hadn't gone through RAC to double check.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I changed to Administrative Groups for the first parargraph, but not elsewhere. That is still somewhat ambiguous because it doesn't mention countries that France has conquered prior to Vichy being declared. But there is an excess of detail in this section already. Partially I have written so much because it is very hard to figure out when reading RAW.

I don't know for the player manual, but the game has to deal with administrative groups when RAW requires dealing with administrative groups. This is important, as a lot of countries can be contained in a single administrative group.

quote:


Double commas?

Yes.
Comma : ,
Double comma : , ,

There are lots of places in the Vichy paragraphs where you wrote ", , ", instead of ", " I believe.

The program handles the administrative groups in the firs subphase. After that it only has to deal with countries.

I found the double commas - thanks.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I changed to Administrative Groups for the first parargraph, but not elsewhere. That is still somewhat ambiguous because it doesn't mention countries that France has conquered prior to Vichy being declared. But there is an excess of detail in this section already. Partially I have written so much because it is very hard to figure out when reading RAW.

I don't know for the player manual, but the game has to deal with administrative groups when RAW requires dealing with administrative groups. This is important, as a lot of countries can be contained in a single administrative group.

quote:


Double commas?

Yes.
Comma : ,
Double comma : , ,

There are lots of places in the Vichy paragraphs where you wrote ", , ", instead of ", " I believe.

The program handles the administrative groups in the firs subphase. After that it only has to deal with countries.

I found the double commas - thanks.

In 7.12.12 it should also deal with Administrative Groups. This is RAC 17.3 paragraph 7, where Administrative Groups are mentionned, and not countries.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
It makes no difference.

I have rewritten that paragraph to correct and clarify things:

During this subphase the program goes through each of the countries controlled by Vichy France and lets the Axis major power that declared Vichy France decide which of the land and air units in those countries should stay on the map. All the French reserve units, all the militia, and half of the other land and air units, rounding down, have to be removed. The reserve units go into the Reserve pool and the other removed units go into the Free French force pool. After every Vichy controlled country has been processed, the game advances to the next subphase.

---
I do see one 'hole' in the rules though. Nothing is explicitly said about countries that France has conquered. For instance, if France had conquered Libya. What the program does currently is have countries conquered by France 'remain' controlled by Free French (more or less by ignoring them).
======================
EDIT:

I rewrote the paragraph again:

During this subphase the program goes through each of the countries controlled by Vichy France and lets the Axis major power that declared Vichy France decide which of the land and air units in those countries should stay on the map. Note that all the on-map French reserve and militia units were removed earlier(see section 7.12.10). Half of the remaining land and air units, rounding down, have to be removed. The removed units go into the Free French force pool. After every Vichy controlled country has been processed, the game advances to the next subphase.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I do see one 'hole' in the rules though. Nothing is explicitly said about countries that France has conquered. For instance, if France had conquered Libya. What the program does currently is have countries conquered by France 'remain' controlled by Free French (more or less by ignoring them).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
It makes no difference.

I have rewritten that paragraph to correct and clarify things:

During this subphase the program goes through each of the countries controlled by Vichy France and lets the Axis major power that declared Vichy France decide which of the land and air units in those countries should stay on the map. All the French reserve units, all the militia, and half of the other land and air units, rounding down, have to be removed. The reserve units go into the Reserve pool and the other removed units go into the Free French force pool. After every Vichy controlled country has been processed, the game advances to the next subphase.

---
I do see one 'hole' in the rules though. Nothing is explicitly said about countries that France has conquered. For instance, if France had conquered Libya. What the program does currently is have countries conquered by France 'remain' controlled by Free French (more or less by ignoring them).
======================
EDIT:

I rewrote the paragraph again:

During this subphase the program goes through each of the countries controlled by Vichy France and lets the Axis major power that declared Vichy France decide which of the land and air units in those countries should stay on the map. Note that all the on-map French reserve and militia units were removed earlier(see section 7.12.10). Half of the remaining land and air units, rounding down, have to be removed. The removed units go into the Free French force pool. After every Vichy controlled country has been processed, the game advances to the next subphase.

Well, I'm quite confused.

Initialy my remark was about this part of RAW :
******************************************
Now, place in the force pools all French controlled ‘Res’ and ‘Mil’ units and half their other land and aircraft units (taken together) from Metropolitan Vichy France and each administration group controlled by Vichy France. The player running Vichy France can choose which to remove.
******************************************

That you translated to :
******************************************
7.12.12 Remove French Units from Map (RAC 17.3 paragraph 7)

During this subphase the program goes through each of the countries controlled by Vichy France, other than Vichy Metropolitan France, and lets the Axis major power that declared Vichy France decide which of the land and air units in those countries should stay on the map. Half, rounding down, have to be removed. Those go into the Free French force pool. After every Vichy controlled country has been processed, the game advances to the next subphase.
******************************************

For example, if there are 1 unit in each of Tunisia, Morocco & Algeria, under your wording the Vichy establishing power will remove the 3 units, as half of 1 is 1 under WiF FE roundings (by the way you wrote "Half, rounding down", it is wrong, it is "Half, rounding up").

Under RAW, as Tunisia, Morocco & Algeria are a single Administrative group, you total the 3 units, and remove half of them that is 2. So 1 is left.

This is the point I argued.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

Shannon,

In regards to #1, a minor country can be conquered and still be 'at war' ala the Netherlands, Belgium, etc... 

You're right. Thanks.

I have to read through the (CWIF) code on this again. As I recall (having read this a couple of days ago), in the code the potential need to rebase overrun units is a function of the country becoming neutral. If it doesn't, then the overrun units aren't overrun. The might cause a bug to occur under some circumstances.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Perhaps consider taking out the wording about the scrap digession in 7.13.2 and 7.13.3 and just keep the wording that units may be destroyed in certain cases. Then 7.13.4 covers the Scrap digression.

Perhaps in 7.13.5 it is worth mentioning this is RAC, not RAW, so the WiF guru new reader doesn't overreact.

Last line of 7.13.6 should read: "Naval combat abort digressions continue executing until there are no longer any units in the Naval Abort Queue."

Just curious - when I read 7.13.6 I'm getting the impression I cannot move my aborting units (same combat round voluntary plus involuntary) as separate naval moves if I want? I can do so by RAW.

In 7.13.8, Vichy can collapse in either an Axis Rail or an Axis Land Movement phase.

Ok, thanks.

I'll change "is able" to "has the option of" which should make it more obvious that combining units into a group is up to the player.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

OK, I was not shred to pieces by posting my take at 3.4.3, so here is my take at 3.4.2.

3.4.2 Action Choice
Patrice Forno – Version 1.0

Action Types
Action choices are the heart of the game system of MWiF. I think that your overall action choice during the game will give you victory or defeat. You will have about 125-126 impulse per side for the whole 39-45 game (which make it a global average of 3,5 impulses per side per turn over the course of the 36 turns of the whole 39-45 game), so that’s about 120-130 action choices you will have to do.

There are 5 types of actions that you can choose during each impulse.

• Land action gives you some air missions (from 1 to 4), unlimited land moves and land attacks and no naval move.
• Naval action gives you some air missions (from 1 to 3), no land move and land attacks and unlimited naval moves.
• Combined action gives you a large number of air missions (from 3 to 7, China excepted), some land moves (2-6), few land attacks (1-3) and few naval move (1-3). It is a bit of everything.
• Air action gives you unlimited number of air missions, no land move and land attacks, no naval move.
• Pass action gives you no air missions, no land move and land attacks and no naval moves.

Action choice also has an important impact on reorganization. Reorganization is cheaper for units that match the action type. For example, it costs the normal amount for air units if you choose an air action, otherwise it is twice the normal cost.

The action types the most chosen usually in the game are the land, naval and combined actions. The air action is very infrequently used, and the pass action is only used when you would like the turn to end (by the allies in the first half of the war, and by the axis in the late part of the war). Basically you do nothing military, and the turn has more chances to finish. My WiFZen for this action is that your country is conducting actions that are not represented and have no effect on the game. Maybe they are secret (or not) meetings, secret (or not) negotiations, whatever. Generally the land powers (Germany, USSR) use a lot of land actions, some combined actions, a few naval actions and a few air actions. IMO they only use air action as an opening for a large scale offensive, or when they have nothing to do and want to rebase a lot of planes. The naval powers (USA, CW, and Japan) generally use 1 naval impulse per turn, and a lot of combined actions in the game. Land actions and air actions are fewer.

Scheduling
You need to think about your action choices wisely and have a vague idea of the types of actions that you will need during the whole turn (they depend on your grand strategy), and schedule them for the better result, taking into account the expected number of impulses for that turn, the present weather and also the weather forecast. The weather forecast is indicated by the modifier to the weather dice, and can also be known in advance using intelligence. The expected number of impulses per turn is given in following chapters.

Example : If you want to conduct a large scale summer offensive, it might be a good idea to start the game turn by an air action, so that you can use your air force widely and without restrictions, so that the enemy is softened for future impulses. It might look like a wasted impulse because there will be no land action or land attack, but it may pay off during next impulse, providing you’ve restricted the enemy’s reorganization capacity so that he does not nullify your results. On the plus side, an air action let you reorganize using your full reorganization capacity.

Example : If you are playing a naval power (USA, CW or Japan), you will be obliged to choose one naval action almost every turn. This will be either to cover your convoys routes (CW & USA), or to carry on your offensives across the oceans, or to defend against the probes and offensives of your enemies. For the CW it is generally chosen as the first impulse to ensure the best convoy protection for all the turn, but it may be delayed depending on the weather, or never be done under exceptional circumstances. So as you know you must do it, schedule your other naval needs so they happen during that impulse.
Dispersion
One thing that is easy to have wrong with action choices is to choose a combined action too often. You need to realize that you will do fewer things by choosing 3 combined actions in a row, versus choosing one of the main arms’ actions in each of the 3 impulses. For me, combined actions are dispersion of military power for mediocre results. Specialized action choices (air, naval and land) are concentration of military power for the best results.

For example, with the CW, 3 combined actions give you 6 naval moves, 15 air missions, 9 land moves, 3 land attacks and 3 rail moves. If you had done 1 naval, 1 air and 1 land actions, you’ll have had an unlimited number of naval moves, an unlimited number of air missions, an unlimited number of land moves, an unlimited number of land attacks and 6 rail moves (rail moves are limited whatever your action choice).

The difference is timing and scheduling. You will choose a combined action if you think that you can’t wait for a future land action to move land units, that you need to move them now, or that you can’t wait for a future air action to move air units, etc…

But when choosing a combined action you should always ask yourself : “Do I really need to move all these different arms’ units at the same time ?, Can’t some of them wait for next impulse ?”. Unavoidably, you’ll choose combined actions a lot, the main good reason for that choice is for having a lot of Air Missions in the first place, because except for the air action, the combined action is the one with the most air missions, and you do a lot of air missions in MWiF.

Offensive Chits
You can have super versions of the regular action choices by having an offensive chit expended.

A Land offensive chit allows you to fight 1-3 land battles at much higher odds than you would normally have had.
An Air offensive chit allows you to bomb a whole area of the frontline (4-8 hexes across) with a much higher efficiency than you would have had. Obviously, you need to have a fighter force that make your bombers clear through, because air-to-air combats are not affected by air offensive chits.
A combined offensive chit allows you to have unlimited air, land and naval actions. You can do everything at the same time.
A naval offensive chit, depending on the option you choose, allows for better efficiency at sea. The old version allows you to reorg a lot of ships to use them again. The newer version allows you better search rolls in a few sea areas.

Also, and maybe most importantly, offensive chits allows for cheaper (halved) reorganisation costs for units reorganized by the offensive chit HQ. So the offensive chit allows for a big blow, and then allows you to use most of the disrupted units later again.

Offensive chits are few in the game. Germany begins the game with 2 of them, Japan with one. Germany is likely to build a couple (1-3) more during the course of the war, while Japan usually only builds 1 more but not much due to smaller production. The USSR begins the game with 1 too, and is the only country on the allied side to have one. The USSR can generally have about 1-2 offensive chits per turn during 1-2 turns per year from 1942 to the end. The CW generally manage at having 2 offensive chits per year from 1942 to the end of the war, maybe less in 1942 (only 1 for the year) and slightly more in 1944-1945. The USA usually will have a huge lot of them in 1943-1945, increasing year after year. It is not uncommon to have the USA use 1 offensive chit per impulse for each impulse of the M/J and J/A 1945 turns. It is not uncommon to have them have 2 offensive chits per turn in M/J and J/A of 1944, and maybe 1-2 spare for S/O and N/D 1944. The power of the USA comes a lot from the Offensive Chits that they are able to field, contrarily to the other countries. The USA army is not very strong, nor very numerous, it is numerous and armoured enough to stand the enemy, but the offensive chits gives them what they lack to crack the Axis lines.

Teaming
When choosing action types, you need to know how to work as a team with other major powers on your side. The major powers known to be able to do that are : The Western Allies (the CW, the USA and Free France for a little part) famous for their Super Air / Super Land sledgehammer, but also for normal action choice combinations, and the Euro Axis (Italy & Germany). This teaming works better if both Major powers cooperate.

Euro Axis. Germany is a strong land power, and a moderate sea power. Italy is quite a good sea power, and a mediocre land power. One good scheme for running a good Battle of the Atlantic with the Euro Axis, is to have Germany sails its SUBs early in the turn (either with a naval action, or with a combined action as all SUBs leaving the same port count as only 1 naval move even if they sail into dozens of different sea areas) while Italy does something else, initiate its own searches and fight any naval battle. And then during the following impulse Italy chooses either a combined or a naval action to move its SUBs so that they join with the German ones, and do their searches. The German SUBs will participate in each naval battle thus started along with the Italian SUBs. Italy will do that each subsequent impulse and initiate new searches and fight new combats alongside with the Germans. Germany will be able focus on land wars in distant lands while Italy initiates the searches in the Atlantic and helps the U-boots wrecking havoc.

CW & USA (Western Allies) : The USA are a sub-strong land power, a very very strong naval and air power. The CW are a moderate land power, a very very strong naval and air power. One good teaming that they can setup is for example to have one of them choose a naval action while the other chooses a land action. This allow for all the fleets of the former to move, load the land units of the later, and then have all the land units of the later able to unload, invade, move, attack, without limit. This team can (and must) be backed up from the mid game to the end by the Free French that will be able either to choose a naval, or a land or an air action, what will be the most convenient for the other members of the team.

Another teaming action that both the Euro Axis and the Western Allies can use is for one member of the team to choose an air action while the other chooses a land action. This allows for unlimited air strikes on the enemy (plus lots of reorganisation for future air use), plus unlimited land moves and land combats (and lots of reorg of land units too). It looks like a big combined action from the team. This is generally most often seen with the Western Allies, who can also use it in its Super version, which is an offensive chit on an air action for one member of the team and an offensive chit for a land action for the other member. This later combination is ultimately powerful and can crack the most powerful German defence, especially if the Western Allies dominate the skies.

Disturb the enemy’s plans
You must try to force the enemy to choose an action choice that he would not have wanted to choose at this moment. As I already said somewhere, MWiF is a game against the clock, more than against the other side, so making the enemy waste precious impulses doing something else than what really bother you is good.

For example, try force the German to choose a combined or naval or air action when he is trying to conduct a land war in Russia. This will give Russia a delay, which can help save her. This is not easy to achieve.

Another example is as the Axis to force the Western Allies to choose a naval action when they would have been able to choose a combined action. Choosing a naval instead may make them late in their planned land action. It is easy to achieve, just sink a few more convoys than what they were ready to loose for example.

Initiative and flip-flops
In MWiF, a side is not required / guarantied to play the same number of impulses as the other side per turn. At least half of the time (more or less a few percents), one side will have one more impulse than the enemy. It will play the first impulse, and the last. If that happens on two subsequent turns, this is called (in French) a flip-flop, and this is a very powerful effect as you can act twice in a row without your opponent reacting. This is especially powerful, as reinforcements will have arrived in between the 2 turns maybe giving you (or the enemy) an extra power. Flip-flops have small chances of happening, as the game has a mechanic that helps the side that did not move first in a turn, to move first in the subsequent turn (this mechanic is the initiative track).

So, beside action choices, choosing who plays first is important. As I have already said, playing first also gives chances for an extra impulse (about 50% chances). But also, the more you play second in a series of turn, the more chances you’ll have to play first in a given turn you chose in advance. For example, the Germans that chose a Barbarossa 41 strategy like to play first in M/J and J/A 41. To have the best chances of this happening, they would better let the Allies play first for the 1-3 previous turns. Playing first have a tendency to push the initiative toward the other side – initiative track – so when and when the initiative is pushed in one camp, this camp have more chances to win the initiative roll, and the side that wins the initiative roll decide who plays first. So, it is usual to have a side winning the initiative roll, and have the other side play first, as a mean to play first later, when the turn will be best for their war plans to be executed.

Gambles
The more impulses you play during a turn, the more chances this turn have to end. See the statistics at the end of this chapter for information about the expected number of impulses per turn.

When it is late in the turn, you can try a gamble. A gamble here is betting that the turn will end to try actions that you would not have tried at another moment, or actions that would be less damaging at another moment.

It can happen in Russia for example that a city is besieged by 2-3 hexsides by the enemy. A dangerous gamble for the defender is to have one of the city’s defending units to move out of the city, hoping for the turn to end and a reinforcing unit to take its place. The risk is that if the turn does not end, the city may be easier for the enemy to conquer. The less this city is threatened, the less dangerous this gamble is. The interest is to have a quick reinforcement, which may be the difference between life & death for that city.

Another gamble, that has no risks in itself but is not doable all the time because often the units able to do it are already disrupted, is to attack the enemy convoy lines late in the turn, hoping for the turn to end so that the enemy has no opportunity to send reinforcing convoys to re-establish his supply and production lines. One more dangerous version of this gamble is to not attack the convoys in some sea area for the whole turn, hopping that the enemy will not go reinforcing them, and attack them late in the turn.

Another gamble would be for units to advance to areas where they are out of supply during this bad weather turn, hoping that the turn ends so that the enemy does not counter attack them, and be in supply next turn to advance even deeper.

Also, you’ll often see German (or Russian) units advance in the difficult terrain of the Pripet Marshes (that makes them disrupt and be immobilized for the rest of the turn) when the end of the turn is nearing, because they hope for the turn to end and so they think that their units would not have advanced anymore anyway.

Obviously, the end of the turn is also the moment for “desperate attacks” (ones that have high risks of disruption), that you would not have done earlier because you would not have liked to have your units disrupted for whatever reason.

Statistics about numbers of impulses
Here are my own statistics, accumulated over 8 completed 39-45 games. This is 48 J/F game turns, 48 M/A game turns, and so on.

Average number of impulse per side, per game turn :
J/F : 2,5 impulses per side per turn
M/A : 2,9 impulses per side per turn
M/J : 4,2 impulses per side per turn
J/A : 4,7 impulses per side per turn
S/O : 3,5 impulses per side per turn
N/D : 2,9 impulses per side per turn

For an average of 125-126 impulse per side per whole 39-45 game (which make it a global average of 3,5 impulses per side per turn over the course of the 36 turns of the whole 39-45 game).

Maximum observed number of impulse for a side during a game turn :
J/F : 4 impulses for a side
M/A : 4-5 impulses for a side
M/J : 6-7 impulses for a side
J/A : 7-8 impulses for a side
S/O : 5 impulses for a side
N/D : 2 impulses for a side

Minimum observed number of impulse for a side during a game turn :
J/F : 1 impulse for a side
M/A : 1 impulse for a side
M/J : 1-2 impulses for a side
J/A : 2-3 impulses for a side
S/O : 1-2 impulses for a side
N/D : 1 impulse for a side

To sum up, a J/A game turn will have an average of 4,7 impulses (say 5 for the side that plays first, and 4 for the other side), and have a maximum of 8 impulses, and a minimum of 2 impulses.

Let’s be clear that :
• The minimum and maximum are sometimes one time occurrences over the whole 8 games.
• The minimum observed number of impulse is for the side that moved last. The other side will have experienced an extra impulse generally.
• The maximum observed number of impulse is for the side that moved first. The other side will have experienced an impulse less generally.

Statistic about the expected number of impulse per game turn
Some other statistic that I had from another source, obtained after simulating 100,000 years of WiF game turns :

Probability of turn ending after impulse J/F M/A M/J J/A S/O N/D
3 5,60% 2,50% 0,10% 2,60%
4 23,40% 11,80% <0,1% <0,1% 3,70% 12,70%
5 32,80% 24,90% 3,50% 0,50% 13,40% 24,50%
6 24,30% 27,10% 7,80% 0,80% 20,60% 25,10%
7 9,90% 18,80% 16,50% 10,80% 22,60% 18,10%
8 3,00% 9,90% 20,90% 18,30% 18,50% 10,30%
9 0,70% 3,50% 20,00% 21,10% 11,70% 4,50%
10 0,20% 1,20% 15,10% 19,70% 5,80% 1,60%
11 <0,1% 0,30% 9,30% 14,60% 2,50% 0,50%
12 <0,1% <0,1% 4,70% 8,50% 0,90% 0,10%
13 1,50% 3,90% 0,20% <0,1%
14 0,50% 1,40% <0,1%
15 <0,1% 0,30%
16+ <0,1%

Expected # of impulses: 5,2 6,0 8,7 9,5 7,2 6,0

Probability of odd number of impulses 49,10% 50,10% 50,90% 51,20% 50,50% 50,20%

Probability of even number of impulses 50,90% 49,90% 49,10% 48,80% 49,50% 49,80%

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Initialy my remark was about this part of RAW :
******************************************
Now, place in the force pools all French controlled ‘Res’ and ‘Mil’ units and half their other land and aircraft units (taken together) from Metropolitan Vichy France and each administration group controlled by Vichy France. The player running Vichy France can choose which to remove.
******************************************

That you translated to :
******************************************
7.12.12 Remove French Units from Map (RAC 17.3 paragraph 7)

During this subphase the program goes through each of the countries controlled by Vichy France, other than Vichy Metropolitan France, and lets the Axis major power that declared Vichy France decide which of the land and air units in those countries should stay on the map. Half, rounding down, have to be removed. Those go into the Free French force pool. After every Vichy controlled country has been processed, the game advances to the next subphase.
******************************************

For example, if there are 1 unit in each of Tunisia, Morocco & Algeria, under your wording the Vichy establishing power will remove the 3 units, as half of 1 is 1 under WiF FE roundings (by the way you wrote "Half, rounding down", it is wrong, it is "Half, rounding up").

Under RAW, as Tunisia, Morocco & Algeria are a single Administrative group, you total the 3 units, and remove half of them that is 2. So 1 is left.

This is the point I argued.

Rounding up is correct. That is how the code is written (my text was wrong).

The militia and reserve units are removed earlier in 7.12.10 (to get them out of the way).

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I do see one 'hole' in the rules though. Nothing is explicitly said about countries that France has conquered. For instance, if France had conquered Libya. What the program does currently is have countries conquered by France 'remain' controlled by Free French (more or less by ignoring them).

Good point. Might be worth taking to the Rules Clarification group. For a minor country, some would say: "FF must exist, they automatically get the conquered country at least."

Others would say: "Roll for it under 'All other territories & minors' ".

For a territory, it only matters if FF exists, but also I think still ambiguous.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Oh well, try and try again.

RAW is somewhat ambiguous as to whether (1) the totality of the land and air units is to be counted and then half of them removed, or (2) each administrative group is to have its total land and air units counted, halved, and then removed, before going onto the next administrative group.

The code (from CWIF) executes the latter. Since it is already written that way, I'll leave it as is.

This means the text for section 7.12.12 should be:

During this subphase the program goes through each of the administrative groups controlled by Vichy France and lets the Axis major power that declared Vichy France decide which of the land and air units in those administrative groups should stay on the map. Note that all the on-map French reserve and militia units were removed earlier (see section 7.12.10). Half of the remaining land and air units, in each administrative group, rounding down, have to be removed. The removed units go into the Free French force pool. The administrative groups are processed individually, without regard for removals in other administrative groups. After every Vichy controlled country has been processed, the game advances to the next subphase.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

Shannon,

In regards to #1, a minor country can be conquered and still be 'at war' ala the Netherlands, Belgium, etc... 

You're right. Thanks.

I have to read through the (CWIF) code on this again. As I recall (having read this a couple of days ago), in the code the potential need to rebase overrun units is a function of the country becoming neutral. If it doesn't, then the overrun units aren't overrun. The might cause a bug to occur under some circumstances.

The code had a hole in what to do with enemy naval units when control of a hex changes "underneath the units" due to incomplete conquest. For example, what to do with CW naval and air units (no land unit present) in Rotterdam if Germany conquers The Netherlands. If a CW land unit is present, then the hex stays controlled by the CW. Without the land unit, the hex becomes German, and the CW units have to rebase. This is processed in a slightly different place in the code for incomplete conquest versus complete conquest. The code was already correct for complete conquest.

I made the changes to the code today to fill this hole.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I do see one 'hole' in the rules though. Nothing is explicitly said about countries that France has conquered. For instance, if France had conquered Libya. What the program does currently is have countries conquered by France 'remain' controlled by Free French (more or less by ignoring them).

Good point. Might be worth taking to the Rules Clarification group. For a minor country, some would say: "FF must exist, they automatically get the conquered country at least."

Others would say: "Roll for it under 'All other territories & minors' ".

For a territory, it only matters if FF exists, but also I think still ambiguous.

I think that the answer lies in the RAW.

17.1 says that "French territories and minor countries already conquered by the Axis remain conquered by them.
All other French territories and minor countries may be aligned with either Vichy France or Free France."

All Territories & Minor Countries conquered by France before Vichyfication, are "French territories and minor countries". "French territories and minor countries" are all Territories & Minor Countries conquered or aligned by France.

So they are dealt with by 17.2, and they are rolled as one administrative group "All other territories & minors".