Digital Downloads and Selling?

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Digital Downloads and Selling? - 12/6/2007 7:58:45 PM

cdbeck

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From: Indiana
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Ok, so I got very curious about something and I wanted to know a bit more about it. I don't want anyone to think that I am planning anything nefarious, or that I am some sort of "pirate" (at least not of the software variety... yaaargh), so keep that in mind.

I have seen, here and on other sites, people trading and selling digital download versions of games that they have bought. First off, how does one do this? Lets say, for instance, I bought a game here from Matrix called "My Little Pony at War." I did not get the boxed version, and got the digital DL only. Say I either played it completely or just didn't get caught up in it. How does one sell, trade, or gift something that does not have a physical presence and whose serial number has been assigned to me? If I want to sell "MLP@W," is this strictly legal if I erase any copy and install file after I send the file to the buyer? Lets say I want to trade "MLP@W" to a buyer for another game "He-man in the Trenches" that he himself bought from DDL? Do we just swap install files and serial numbers and call it a day? How can I differentiate this from outright piracy, where a person buys or cracks a game then distributes it?

Now I realize that one could simply burn the install file to a CD, along with a word doc with the serial number, and send it to the buyer/receiver. However, is this valid and legal? Would the buyer have trouble using that serial number (I am only talking about Matrix's system ATM, as I know on Steam or other DDL sites this could be an issue)? Is this some strange middle zone about copyright and ownership?

I ask because I know that there are game trading sites out there that trade digitally downloaded games, and I do know that people gift and sell these things all the time. I just don't understand the process and the trust system needed, as well as the legality of the process. I myself have a copy of C:EaW that I would not mind giving a new home, but breaking the law, being ethically questionable, or borderline dishonest is not worth the coin I might gain in selling. So is there a "right" way to do this sort of thing, or with the laws about ownership of digital assets and copyright prevent any transfer of these types of "goods?"

Like I said, this is mostly curiosity here. Any thoughts?

SoM

< Message edited by Son_of_Montfort -- 12/6/2007 8:04:36 PM >

_____________________________

"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet!"
(Kill them all. God will know his own.)

-- Arnaud-Armaury, the Albigensian Crusade

Post #: 1

RE: Digital Downloads and Selling? - 12/7/2007 9:07:39 PM

wworld7

Posts: 1727
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From: The Nutmeg State
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I am currious about this too. As have a couple of titles that I may want to give to a friend.

So an answer would be nice.

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Flipper

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RE: Digital Downloads and Selling? - 12/7/2007 9:18:14 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
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Once you buy it from us, you own it. The disadvantage to the person who buys it from you is that they may not be able to register the game if you already registered it. We don't have the staff to manually de-register a game whenever someone wants to sell it, so that's just the way it has to be. We rely on our customers, should they decide to sell a download copy of a game, being honorable enough to just provide the installer on a CD with the serial number to the new owner and wipe all copies of it from their own system (and don't succumb to temptation and re-download it again). I would strongly advise AGAINST selling a download link - that's not legal by us and could lead to your own personal info being compromised. Really, we're putting our trust in you as far as that goes, since we do not want to use the DRM "online activation" systems.

If we find two people claiming to own the same serial number, then unless there's a really good explanation (which I can't think of), that serial number is banned and removed from future patches, updates, etc. So, don't do that.

Regards,

- Erik

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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RE: Digital Downloads and Selling? - 12/7/2007 9:42:22 PM

wworld7

Posts: 1727
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From: The Nutmeg State
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Erik,

Thanks, in my case I have UV, CAW, and one other that I want to give to a friend. With the hope he will break down and buy WITP.

Mine are all boxed copies (I tend to buy both) and OF COURSE I would remove the downloaded software from my computer prior to giving them away.

Would it help if I actualy do this to send support an email with the codes? Or is just telling my friend he can't try to register them enough?

I do not want to cause problems.

Be well,

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Flipper

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Post #: 4

RE: Digital Downloads and Selling? - 12/7/2007 9:48:14 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
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From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

Just telling him he won't be able to register them seems fine to me.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to wworld7)

Post #: 5

RE: Digital Downloads and Selling? - 12/8/2007 12:39:08 AM

NefariousKoel

Posts: 2930
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From: Murderous Missouri Scum
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort
.... I don't want anyone to think that I am planning anything nefarious, or that I am some sort of "pirate" (at least not of the software variety... yaaargh), so keep that in mind.

I'm truly hurt. I will be crying in the shower so nobody sees if you happen to need me.

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RE: Digital Downloads and Selling? - 12/8/2007 2:28:48 AM

Zap

Posts: 3639
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From: LAS VEGAS TAKE A CHANCE
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He was talking about your cousin nefarious not you, NefariousKoel.

< Message edited by Zap -- 12/8/2007 2:39:29 AM >

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RE: Digital Downloads and Selling? - 12/8/2007 5:28:36 AM

cdbeck

Posts: 1374
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From: Indiana
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Thanks Erik, good to know the policy on these things.

And NefariousKoel, I forgot the punctuation on that. It should have been "that I am planning anything, nefarious, or."

Mostly that statement was to reassure you!

SoM

_____________________________

"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet!"
(Kill them all. God will know his own.)

-- Arnaud-Armaury, the Albigensian Crusade

(in reply to Zap)

Post #: 8

RE: Digital Downloads and Selling? - 12/8/2007 9:28:48 AM

JudgeDredd

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From: Scotland
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As one who has done this (and recently by giving some games away for free) I can categorically inform everyone here that I most definitely delete the install file and remove the game when I move something on....the reason I am moving it on is because I am finished with it or could not get on with it.

As an example, recently I offered Cross of Iron and someone snapped it up. Well I had to re-download the game (I had removed it from my machine anyway). Once I had downloaded it, I installed it again to give it a run through to remind myself of the series ...mainly to see if I might want to buy Modern Tactics.

I then burned the installer to a disk and removed the game. I then sent it. Once the new owner receives the game, I will remove the installer.

Game companies nowadays think if they get laywers to put a fancy sounding document and call it an EULA, they can get away with calling it legally binding. In actual fact, from what I gather, some companies are actually breaking the law with these EULAs and copy protection programs because they prohibit your right to have one backup copy of the game for personal use.

Funny how what is good for the goose isn't good for the gander. I suppose how big you are in the corporate world and how much financial clout you have determines how much you can get away with.

As a little "kiss ass" note, I think it's great of Matrix, in these dark days of copyright grey area, that they allow such an accessible and non-prohibitive, least interfering way of copy protecting their work. And I take my hat off to any company that holds their customers in such high stead.

Also I comend Matrix for allowing me to spread my love of there games to other people who may not be able to buy them.

Matrix, I think your policy is spot on, and it's the very reason why I have no issues with removing a game and destroying the install once I have passed it on...trust works both ways.

In rl, people (most, decent people) have a problem with taking advantage of trust and abusing it...some don't...but I like to look on the bright side and think most do.

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Alba gu' brath

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Post #: 9

RE: Digital Downloads and Selling? - 12/8/2007 11:23:31 PM

cdbeck

Posts: 1374
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From: Indiana
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I firmly agree JD. It seems to me to be counter-productive to a decent person and a wargaming fan to "pirate" or keep the install of a game they sold or traded. If you believe in being compensated for your work, and most everyone does, then you have to obligation to pay for a game and remove it when you no longer own it.

I believe Matrix is spot on as well. Stardock uses a similar "lack of copy protection" scheme and, like Matrix, they realize that their fans will be mostly ethical and moral people who will not abuse this policy. Of course, using the "patch" or "new content" carrot (unlockable only with a valid serial number) is always a nice and non-intrusive way to keep people honest.

That being said, I have not ever sold or traded a Matrix game. I was thinking about doing so with Commander: Europe at War, but the thought of losing the game and not being able to play it (even though I haven't in a while) really bugs me!

I'm the type that shelves things, sees a new patch, and then feels compelled to test out the new patch. I'm just funny that way!

SoM

_____________________________

"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet!"
(Kill them all. God will know his own.)

-- Arnaud-Armaury, the Albigensian Crusade

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 10

RE: Digital Downloads and Selling? - 12/8/2007 11:24:21 PM

cdbeck

Posts: 1374
Joined: 8/16/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline

Also... I wish I had been the one to snatch up that CoI... I've had my eye on that, but can't bring myself to buy it quite yet...

SoM

_____________________________

"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet!"
(Kill them all. God will know his own.)

-- Arnaud-Armaury, the Albigensian Crusade

(in reply to cdbeck)

Post #: 11

RE: Digital Downloads and Selling? - 12/8/2007 11:35:59 PM

Terl

Posts: 609
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort

Also... I wish I had been the one to snatch up that CoI... I've had my eye on that, but can't bring myself to buy it quite yet...�

SoM

I have CoI....would be willing to trade...

(in reply to cdbeck)

Post #: 12

RE: Digital Downloads and Selling? - 12/9/2007 3:21:37 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline

Companies can legally alter any rules they want in the EULA. Including rules for backups and for reselling. You can verify this yourself, its even answered in the FAQ section of the governments copyright website. The only US government rule is to allow you backups when not otherwise restricted and to tell you you CANNOT backup any digitally downloaded music or movie (Well thats whats officially posted on their website anyway).

The only flaw with the EULA thing, from an American point of view, is that you can't return software if you decide you don't agree with the EULA. And since you can't read it before you buy it...

Its tacky to me to buy and sell used Matrix Games on their own website though.

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RE: Digital Downloads and Selling? - 12/9/2007 3:54:40 AM

wworld7

Posts: 1727
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From: The Nutmeg State
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor

Its tacky to me to buy and sell used Matrix Games on their own website though.

I agree with your statement above.

For myself, I have been talking about giving my software away. With the hope that other people will enjoy the products I do not have time to enjoy anymore.

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Flipper

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RE: Digital Downloads and Selling? - 12/9/2007 4:08:07 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
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From: King's Landing
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quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor

Its tacky to me to buy and sell used Matrix Games on their own website though.

I agree with your statement above.

For myself, I have been talking about giving my software away. With the hope that other people will enjoy the products I do not have time to enjoy anymore.

Glad you agree but while its true giving away used Matrix software on their own website may not be tacky like trying to buy or sell it might be... From another standpoint a lost sale is a lost sale.

To use an argument for that such as "It's likely to go to someone who wouldn't or couldn't have purchased it anyway" would be to state something not unlike what a pirate actually states ("There is no lost revenue here thus no "theft" because I never would have bought the game anyway").

The truth is for someone to take a piece of software means they have an interest in playing it. That means they could still have bought it someplace sometime otherwise in which Matrix and the Devs would see at least some $$$ for it.

I won't bug anyone further about it because I'm sure Matrix will make a rule against it were it to get out of hand (Say especially at the point where a seperate forum section is needed just to deal with all the buys/sells/trades going on). Personally, if I were going to do it, I'd just do it elsewhere... That's all.

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RE: Digital Downloads and Selling? - 12/9/2007 4:52:06 AM

wworld7

Posts: 1727
Joined: 2/25/2003
From: The Nutmeg State
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Sir,

I am only using Matrix's forum on this issue to find out if it is ok to pass software on to a friend who may have interest in games that I can not find time for anymore.

While I hope that said friend likes the products enough to invest in WITP, it is not a requirement.

There is absolutely no lost income to Matrix or the developer.

Be well and Happy Holidays!

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Flipper

(in reply to Veldor)

Post #: 16

RE: Digital Downloads and Selling? - 12/9/2007 5:41:24 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
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quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

Sir,

I am only using Matrix's forum on this issue to find out if it is ok to pass software on to a friend who may have interest in games that I can not find time for anymore.

While I hope that said friend likes the products enough to invest in WITP, it is not a requirement.

There is absolutely no lost income to Matrix or the developer.

Be well and Happy Holidays!

Right. Right. Thus there won't be a thread here offering your Matrix Games for free.

Anyways even if you did, or others do, I don't care. Nor should you really care if I did.

I'm not here to pass judgement, and I certainly don't make the rules, I'm just stating my opinion and that I wouldn't do it HERE...Which your not apparantly planning on doing either.

Hope your friend likes the game.

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Post #: 17

RE: Digital Downloads and Selling? - 12/9/2007 6:58:58 AM

cdbeck

Posts: 1374
Joined: 8/16/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline

It wasn't my intention to make this thread a short of "Trade here" or "lets all undercut Matrix" thread. I was really curious because I saw a guy at the Octopus Overlord's forum mention something about getting WitP at some Half.com like store. I assumed he meant the DDL version as well, so it brought up the whole idea of DDL and who actually owns the data and who has the right to transfer the data.

SoM

_____________________________

"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet!"
(Kill them all. God will know his own.)

-- Arnaud-Armaury, the Albigensian Crusade

(in reply to Veldor)

Post #: 18

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Digital Downloads and Selling?