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OH BOY... - 12/6/2007 10:09:15 PM   
highpocrisy


Posts: 16
Joined: 10/20/2007
Status: offline 		Another good Matrix game with brain dead AI and ancient resolution.
...And I just blew another $50 on Commander Europe at War.
Don't any coders learn Microsoft Foundation Classes when they lean C++ these days?
It's not THAT hard to program a cple resoslution with the same art,
Now I know "ya'll" are small boutique teams but you sure have been charging big league prices for the games...
If I wuz you, and I know that I ain't, but if I wuz... I'd maybe cut down on dem limoz , bitches, gold chains and all that bling and hire extra coder help rather then making that "one" poor guy stay up on red bull and write ten thousand pages of code a month. ;)
anywho, just sayin'...

peace
Post #: 1
RE: OH BOY... - 12/6/2007 10:26:41 PM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
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From: King's Landing
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quote:

ORIGINAL: highpocrisy
Don't any coders learn Microsoft Foundation Classes when they lean C++ these days?


Its actually C# these days. If your gonna criticize try to get your facts straight...

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RE: OH BOY... - 12/6/2007 11:47:02 PM   
Mynok


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quote:

Don't any coders learn Microsoft Foundation Classes when they lean C++ these days?


Or maybe find some programmers who know OpenGL so these games aren't stuck to Micro$lut crap.

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Post #: 3
RE: OH BOY... - 12/6/2007 11:55:45 PM   
Johnus

 

Posts: 615
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline 		highpocrisy:

Thank you for the informative, helpful and well written post.

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RE: OH BOY... - 12/7/2007 12:02:58 AM   
Mynok


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RE: OH BOY... - 12/7/2007 12:07:06 AM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		Actually Veldor, whilst C# is the new kid on the block, C++ is still in massive circulation.

I don't know what this program is written in...but it's still commonplace to use C++ for fast, efficient code.


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RE: OH BOY... - 12/7/2007 12:19:22 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		As far as I know, EIA is written with Delphi.

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RE: OH BOY... - 12/7/2007 12:56:43 AM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Close Erik! Actually, C++ utilizing Borland C/C++ Builder.



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Post #: 8
RE: OH BOY... - 12/7/2007 1:46:45 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis
Close Erik! Actually, C++ utilizing Borland C/C++ Builder.


Whoops - I remembered "Borland" and assumed Delphi.


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Post #: 9
RE: OH BOY... - 12/7/2007 2:28:02 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
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From: King's Landing
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Actually Veldor, whilst C# is the new kid on the block, C++ is still in massive circulation.

I don't know what this program is written in...but it's still commonplace to use C++ for fast, efficient code.



The post was in regards to Microsoft Foundation Classes and what the devs didn't take or didnt learn in them. And actually C# is no longer the new kid on the block. That comment is dated by at least 3 years. I can personally guarantee you Microsoft focuses on C# and .NET in its classes not C++ and has for some time now. I happen to be a Microsoft Certified Trainer among other things. C++ is becoming the new Cobol. It'll never entirely go away but is quickly being reduced to niche uses like driver development and so forth. What few C# issues there are have either been addressed in newer versions or simply aren't issues for modern business platforms and home machines.

If I were going to make an argument for why this game has a brain dead AI (Assuming I actually believed that it did) I would blame the lack of C# usage. The time saved using C# could have been used towards improving the AI, however good or bad it may be. Whatever generally poor argument one may try to make regarding code execution speed its a fundamental fact that C# code is much much quicker to write and subsequentely to debug. Hence its extreme popularity and adoption rate.

Though obviously it was not really a choice when this game first underwent development.


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Post #: 10
RE: OH BOY... - 12/7/2007 2:50:10 AM   
FrankHunter

 

Posts: 2111
Joined: 3/26/2004
Status: offline 		Glad to see this game out, I used to love the boardgame and this is a must-have for me.

Thanks to everyone involved!

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Post #: 11
RE: OH BOY... - 12/7/2007 3:33:41 AM   
Irish Guards


Posts: 143
Joined: 8/13/2004
Status: offline 		Nay tis the Oracle at Delphi ....
Higher learned ...
IDG

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Post #: 12
RE: OH BOY... - 12/7/2007 4:05:46 AM   
dumasclub

 

Posts: 17
Joined: 8/26/2004
Status: offline 		I'm tired of the computer geeks who have no idea what there talking about when it comes to having an effective AI in desktop computer games. I have played this game for a bit and find the AI to be very reasonable and better than most when it comes to these games. For a developer to code in every response possible that a AI might be able to process in any situation extrapolated outwards to infinity and put all of that in a computer script is basically not possible. And if that's what your looking for play against a human being. To make the game challenging increase the intensity of the AI. It might not be smarter but their troops will be harder to kill I'm sure.

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Post #: 13
RE: OH BOY... - 12/7/2007 4:52:28 AM   
Mynok


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I just want an AI that learns.

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Post #: 14
RE: OH BOY... - 12/7/2007 5:00:29 AM   
morvwilson


Posts: 510
Joined: 11/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline 		So far, I love this game!
It may be a reflection on me, but on easy ai a combined AU/PR trounced me as FR!

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Post #: 15
RE: OH BOY... - 12/7/2007 6:50:58 AM   
wworld7


Posts: 1727
Joined: 2/25/2003
From: The Nutmeg State
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


I just want an AI that learns.



I wish you luck in getting that.

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Flipper

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Post #: 16
RE: OH BOY... - 12/7/2007 8:01:35 AM   
Odysseus

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 11/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


I just want an AI that learns.



Shouldn't it be possible to make the AI more hostile to whatever power is closest to achieving it's PP goal? Of course, that could make for some interesting political chaos when it's a close race...but then again, wouldn't that also be the case with all human players in some respect?

Or maybe that's already coded into the game?

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Post #: 17
RE: OH BOY... - 12/7/2007 10:14:08 AM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor


quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Actually Veldor, whilst C# is the new kid on the block, C++ is still in massive circulation.

I don't know what this program is written in...but it's still commonplace to use C++ for fast, efficient code.



The post was in regards to Microsoft Foundation Classes and what the devs didn't take or didnt learn in them. And actually C# is no longer the new kid on the block. That comment is dated by at least 3 years. I can personally guarantee you Microsoft focuses on C# and .NET in its classes not C++ and has for some time now. I happen to be a Microsoft Certified Trainer among other things. C++ is becoming the new Cobol. It'll never entirely go away but is quickly being reduced to niche uses like driver development and so forth. What few C# issues there are have either been addressed in newer versions or simply aren't issues for modern business platforms and home machines.

If I were going to make an argument for why this game has a brain dead AI (Assuming I actually believed that it did) I would blame the lack of C# usage. The time saved using C# could have been used towards improving the AI, however good or bad it may be. Whatever generally poor argument one may try to make regarding code execution speed its a fundamental fact that C# code is much much quicker to write and subsequentely to debug. Hence its extreme popularity and adoption rate.

Though obviously it was not really a choice when this game first underwent development.


ok...with the ref to the Microsoft Foundation Classes, it was a fair reposte...I bow to your superior attention to detail.

And by "new kid on the block", I didn't mean it was just out. In fact your "...is dated by at least 3 years" I would have extended. I meant that it is the new big thing...in fact it's extremely popular in Britain and very sought after...I just wish I had the time to learn it at the moment (I know...I'm a bit late for the bus, but my drive in the computing world has been very much dampened by shortcutting and over tight budgets and extremely optimistic deadlines imposed by people in charge of purse strings).

Yes, C++ is on it's way out...but, of late, I have yet to here of a game that uses C#. That is to say (before I'm murdered) that I have yet to find out that a game that I OWN was created using C#.

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Alba gu' brath

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Post #: 18
RE: OH BOY... - 12/7/2007 7:04:04 PM   
SamuraiProgrmmr

 

Posts: 353
Joined: 10/17/2004
From: Paducah, Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Odysseus

Shouldn't it be possible to make the AI more hostile to whatever power is closest to achieving it's PP goal? Of course, that could make for some interesting political chaos when it's a close race...but then again, wouldn't that also be the case with all human players in some respect?

Or maybe that's already coded into the game?



I played a game (Space Empires IV) in which the AI ganged up on a player when he passed a certain victory point goal. I always felt it was urealistic. In such a case where one entity was becoming too strong, surely some other entity would adopt a 'lets you and him fight' and reap the benefits of still being strong whilst others were weakening themselves.



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Post #: 19
RE: OH BOY... - 12/7/2007 9:01:24 PM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
ok...with the ref to the Microsoft Foundation Classes, it was a fair reposte...I bow to your superior attention to detail.

And by "new kid on the block", I didn't mean it was just out. In fact your "...is dated by at least 3 years" I would have extended. I meant that it is the new big thing...in fact it's extremely popular in Britain and very sought after...I just wish I had the time to learn it at the moment (I know...I'm a bit late for the bus, but my drive in the computing world has been very much dampened by shortcutting and over tight budgets and extremely optimistic deadlines imposed by people in charge of purse strings).

Yes, C++ is on it's way out...but, of late, I have yet to here of a game that uses C#. That is to say (before I'm murdered) that I have yet to find out that a game that I OWN was created using C#.


Fair enough.

Though in fact it was one of Matrix's own games "Tin Soldiers" I believe that was featured by Microsoft for being one of the first entirely C# games. A bit ironic given the first post in the thread I'd say..

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Post #: 20
RE: OH BOY... - 12/7/2007 9:26:06 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
Yes, C++ is on it's way out...but, of late, I have yet to here of a game that uses C#. That is to say (before I'm murdered) that I have yet to find out that a game that I OWN was created using C#.


Have you played or do you own Panzer Command: Operation Winter Storm?


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Post #: 21
RE: OH BOY... - 12/7/2007 9:26:49 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor
Though in fact it was one of Matrix's own games "Tin Soldiers" I believe that was featured by Microsoft for being one of the first entirely C# games. A bit ironic given the first post in the thread I'd say..


Yep... all the Koios Works games were done with C# and Managed DirectX.


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Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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Post #: 22
RE: OH BOY... - 12/7/2007 9:34:32 PM   
Odysseus

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 11/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Odysseus

Shouldn't it be possible to make the AI more hostile to whatever power is closest to achieving it's PP goal? Of course, that could make for some interesting political chaos when it's a close race...but then again, wouldn't that also be the case with all human players in some respect?

Or maybe that's already coded into the game?



I played a game (Space Empires IV) in which the AI ganged up on a player when he passed a certain victory point goal. I always felt it was urealistic. In such a case where one entity was becoming too strong, surely some other entity would adopt a 'lets you and him fight' and reap the benefits of still being strong whilst others were weakening themselves.




Oh, for sure. It's that tricky thing to get a computer to make the judgement call on when it's in the faction's best interest (for winning) to co-operate with other factions to take a leader down vs. when it's better to have someone else duke it out against the leader (say the second most powerful) while sitting out of the battle and picking out the pieces when the dust settles. IIRC I've actually seem some of that behaviour in CivIV, but I could be mistaken, was a long time ago. As I recall it, though, the CivIV AI was awesome regarding such types of challenges...if this AI is even close to that, I'll be quite pleased, and if it's better, I'll play this game for many years to come, that's for sure...

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Post #: 23
RE: OH BOY... - 12/8/2007 9:47:18 AM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor
Though in fact it was one of Matrix's own games "Tin Soldiers" I believe that was featured by Microsoft for being one of the first entirely C# games. A bit ironic given the first post in the thread I'd say..


Yep... all the Koios Works games were done with C# and Managed DirectX.


Well...my point still stands then...I don't own a game written in C#

However, that will be fixed shortly. I am looking at buying PC:OWS when Christmas is over...December is a crap month for me...I live miles away from my immediate family (450), so it costs somewhere in the region of £180 to get there and back for the holidays. On top of that, there is the "required" breakdown cover for £100 (to cover the what-if scenarios). Then there's Christmas presents for all.....and to put the cherry on top, both my kids birthdays are in December!!!

So I absolutely look forward to December with intrepidation.

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