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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/20/2008 9:25:09 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Yup I have printed out most of the Aus War Memorial stuff from when I did the Aus OOB its good its just a question of choosing which source to believe for this stuff

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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/20/2008 9:32:17 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Harald, we are having an "internal" debate regarding the existence/location of the "150mm CD" guns aboard Amboina. Most of our sources tie back to the Australian official history, a few seem to tie back to Hoogenband/Schotborgh (which by the way is available at http://www.antiqbook.nl/boox/boekv/000387.shtml wish I had a spare $57USD!!
So the question is, where were these guns located exactly?

The Australians http://www.awm.gov.au/cms_images/histories/20/chapters/19.pdf describe a permanant coastal gun position at "Paso" (see the map contained in the chaper in the link). However, there is zero mention of any 150MM guns. But I have to think this position is the most likely candidate for the position of any heavy coastal guns.

Your text above contains the character string "Nona-Battery" however the "Nona position" described in the Australian source was near a mountain over 1 mile from the Ocean, not a likely candidate for the position of heavy coastal guns!

Niehorster's site http://niehorster.orbat.com/016_netherlands/41-12-08/tc_moluccas.html contains mention of a battery of 150/L40 guns in the Molukken garrison with the associated character string "Goenoeng Nona" there are apparently, at least dozens of locations in Indonesia containing the character string "Goenoeng" but I can find no reverence to such on Amboina.

Without any information as to the location of these guns we struggle as to whether to include them or not (just one of many details we try to nail down). So I would like to ask you if in Hoogenband/Schotborgh there are any further hints regarding the exact location of these 4x150MMCD guns?

Thanks,

Joe

p.s. I'm trying to post the map in the Aussie source, but struggling with the size, I'll need to switch computers to be able to manipulate it down. Will post it in a sec.


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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/20/2008 9:33:33 PM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		In other areas, I have found the Bn or Bde Diaries, written on the spot to be more accurate than the Division/Corps Diaries. In one case the Amy Diaries had a Bn moving 7 Days before the Bn Diaries showed the relocation, I suppose it took longer to pack up than HQ knew or movement of the Advanced echelon was taken as the effective date.

Makes doing this stuff fun doesnt it!!!

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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/20/2008 9:41:30 PM   
jwilkerson


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Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Ok, here is the map from the above cited Aussie source. Note the proximity of part of the Japanese landings to the Paso position, yet no mention of the 150MM guns or any firing of same. Curious if Hoogenband/Schotborgh can shed any further light on the exact location of these guns.

Thanks!

Joe





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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/20/2008 9:51:50 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Continuing to read the Aussia history, it looks like a position at "Benteng" (southwest of Ambon town) is another candidate for the coastal artillery position. Still curious if Hoogenband/Schotborgh can confirm.



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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/20/2008 9:58:27 PM   
Reg


Posts: 2787
Joined: 5/26/2000
From: NSW, Australia
Status: offline 		My reading of the Aust Official history was that the CD battery was located at Bentang to cover the approaches to Binnen Bay and Laha airfield. The fortifications at Paso were for defence against ground assaults from the north and were outflanked by the Japanese landing behind them.

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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/20/2008 10:12:59 PM   
JeffroK


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Status: offline 		The 2/21 Bn Diaries show 4 x 6" Naval Guns-Fixed at Toehameten

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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/20/2008 10:19:48 PM   
Dutch_slith


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From: the Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Re Ambon.

If you go to the Aust War Memorial Diaries site (Reg posted the link)

2/21st Bn for Nov Dec 1941, on page 112ish it has a OOB for the Dutch & Australian forces at Ambon & Laha

Written at the time, these are often more accurate than theoretical OOB garnered from HQ sources.


Actually there almost no "HQ sources" regarding the KNIL forces. Most of them have been burned at the end of the Java campaign. Most KNIL information - and that is the reason why it is so difficult to gather any information at all - is made up of interviews and after action reports, written after VJ-day (or during the war in Australia). Hoogenband/Schotborgh wrote down an "official history" in the 50s using these sources. Nortier had examined these again and published the verified data in his standard work on the DEI campaign. Of course they give TO/Es on Sparrow and Gull Force too, but only from a dutch view. And I think the australian sources just give an australian one of the KNIL.


< Message edited by Harald Velemans -- 12/20/2008 10:58:09 PM >

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Post #: 908
RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/20/2008 10:26:47 PM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		Gun locations on 27/12/41 were:

2 x 40mm Bofors      Laha
2 x 40mm Bofors      Halong
4 Stokes mortars      Hitoelama
8 Stokes Mortars      Victoria
4 x 75mm Field Guns-Mobile     Halong
4 x 75mm Field Guns-Mobile     Paso
4 x 7cm Field Guns-Mobile     Benteng (Arty Barracks)
2 x 3.7cm Guns-Mobile       Boom (Halong)
1 x 75mm Naval Guns-Fixed    Halong
1 x 75mm Naval Gun - Fixed    Coal Wharf
4 x 6" Naval Guns-Fixed      Toehameten

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Post #: 909
RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/20/2008 10:36:39 PM   
JeffroK


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Status: offline 		The difference with the Diaries are that they were written on the spot. And while they still include error and misaprehensions are often a better source than those written 10+ years later

< Message edited by JeffK -- 12/20/2008 10:38:21 PM >

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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/20/2008 10:43:24 PM   
Dutch_slith


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Ok, here is the map from the above cited Aussie source. Note the proximity of part of the Japanese landings to the Paso position, yet no mention of the 150MM guns or any firing of same. Curious if Hoogenband/Schotborgh can shed any further light on the exact location of these guns.

Thanks!

Joe






OK, I'll position all artillery using a KNIL map of Laitimor.

4 guns 150mm Lang 40 at the foothills of Goenoeng Nona. Range of this battery was 13km. Target area was the outer bay (in your map: Bay of Ambon). Goenoeng is dutch for gunung which is the malay word for mountain.

1 gun 75mm L 55 at the kolensteiger (west of Ambon). Kolensteiger is a part of Ambon roads (coal burning ships get their coal there). This gun targeted the Bay of Ambon, too.

1 gun 75mm L 55 at NAS Halong, this is on the Binnen-Bay.

2 guns 37mm at Galala protecting a barrage made up from bars.

The two mobile batteries of each four 75mm Lang 30 protected Paso from positions at Halong and Lateri. The battery at Halong could fire into the Binnen-Bay too.

the four 70mm Lang 14 Veerspoor (totaly obsolete guns) were used in the Paso-emplacement. Range was about 2000m, they could deliver only frontal/direct fire.

-----

Hoogenband/Schotburgh marked them on their map, Nortier described the positions in detail.

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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/20/2008 10:49:01 PM   
Dutch_slith


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From: the Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Gun locations on 27/12/41 were:

2 x 40mm Bofors      Laha VERIFIED
2 x 40mm Bofors      Halong VERIFIED
4 Stokes mortars      Hitoelama
8 Stokes Mortars      Victoria
4 x 75mm Field Guns-Mobile     Halong VERIFIED
4 x 75mm Field Guns-Mobile     Paso LATERI VERIFIED
4 x 7cm Field Guns-Mobile     Benteng (Arty Barracks) PASO
2 x 3.7cm Guns-Mobile       Boom (Halong) GALALA
1 x 75mm Naval Guns-Fixed    Halong VERIFIED
1 x 75mm Naval Gun - Fixed    Coal Wharf VERIFIED
4 x 6" Naval Guns-Fixed      Toehameten NEVER MENTIONED


Regarding the 6" guns. It was planned to create a large naval base at Ambon. So 6" guns are possible but in januari 1942 there were no 6" guns, at least no KNIL ones....

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Post #: 912
RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/20/2008 10:52:02 PM   
Dutch_slith


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From: the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Harald, we are having an "internal" debate regarding the existence/location of the "150mm CD" guns aboard Amboina. Most of our sources tie back to the Australian official history, a few seem to tie back to Hoogenband/Schotborgh (which by the way is available at http://www.antiqbook.nl/boox/boekv/000387.shtml wish I had a spare $57USD!!
So the question is, where were these guns located exactly?



It isn't available any more, I purchased it!

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Post #: 913
RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/20/2008 10:57:06 PM   
Dutch_slith


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From: the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Continuing to read the Aussia history, it looks like a position at "Benteng" (southwest of Ambon town) is another candidate for the coastal artillery position. Still curious if Hoogenband/Schotborgh can confirm.





NOT CONFIRMED

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Post #: 914
RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/20/2008 11:02:43 PM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		tomorrow I'll post Makassar Garrison, Manokwari Garrison, Timor Garrison (with all its small detachments on the various islands) and last but not least the Dilly-expeditie (Dili Expeditionary Force)....


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Post #: 915
RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/20/2008 11:09:25 PM   
JeffroK


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Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		Harald, I think the Aussie 6" guns are the Dutch 150mm, we hadnt turned metric at that point.

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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/21/2008 12:04:33 AM   
jwilkerson


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From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

My reading of the Aust Official history was that the CD battery was located at Bentang to cover the approaches to Binnen Bay and Laha airfield. The fortifications at Paso were for defence against ground assaults from the north and were outflanked by the Japanese landing behind them.


After re-reading 4 times (so far) I agree. Also the description says that the Japanese ships came in closer AFTER this "important" position (Bentang) was eliminated. So is "Bentang" the same as "Nona", "Goenoeng", "Toehameten"??? In a phrase often repeated by one of my more hiralious co-workers, "Could Be" !!!

Well after Harald settles down with the full tome and digests, hopefully he can shed more light on the questions!

But apparently these guns could not fire to the East, hence the Japanese came in from that way outflanking the coastal guns.



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Post #: 917
RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/21/2008 12:06:33 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Harald Velemans


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Harald, we are having an "internal" debate regarding the existence/location of the "150mm CD" guns aboard Amboina. Most of our sources tie back to the Australian official history, a few seem to tie back to Hoogenband/Schotborgh (which by the way is available at http://www.antiqbook.nl/boox/boekv/000387.shtml wish I had a spare $57USD!!
So the question is, where were these guns located exactly?



It isn't available any more, I purchased it!


Well at least it's "in the family" now!



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Post #: 918
RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/21/2008 1:04:41 AM   
Reg


Posts: 2787
Joined: 5/26/2000
From: NSW, Australia
Status: offline
Never fear, there's another copy available in the UK.

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=426572686&searchurl=tn%3Dnederlands%2Bindie%2Bcontra%2Bjapan%26x%3D54%26y%3D9

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Cheers,
Reg.

(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/21/2008 9:44:29 AM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

My reading of the Aust Official history was that the CD battery was located at Bentang to cover the approaches to Binnen Bay and Laha airfield. The fortifications at Paso were for defence against ground assaults from the north and were outflanked by the Japanese landing behind them.


After re-reading 4 times (so far) I agree. Also the description says that the Japanese ships came in closer AFTER this "important" position (Bentang) was eliminated. So is "Bentang" the same as "Nona", "Goenoeng", "Toehameten"??? In a phrase often repeated by one of my more hiralious co-workers, "Could Be" !!!

Well after Harald settles down with the full tome and digests, hopefully he can shed more light on the questions!

But apparently these guns could not fire to the East, hence the Japanese came in from that way outflanking the coastal guns.




I have re-read the Ambon-chapter. Benteng/Bentang is nowhere mentioned. It isn't on the map, either. I guess Bentang is 'Goenoeng Nona'. Around the battery there was a bunker-system carved into the hills, lots of trenches and such. Two artillery positions are marked on the KNIL Map, the first exactly west from Ambon (this must be the 75mm L 55 at the kolensteiger) and the second more inland to the south of the first, this must be the Nona battery. This position is between Amahoesoe and Koedamati, both are on your map.

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Post #: 920
RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/21/2008 10:04:17 AM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Territorial Command Celebes and Menado LTC C.H. Statius Muller, end of dec '41 COL M. Vooren

Troepencommando Makassar MAJ J.H.B. Jaspers

Makassar:
Mobile Column Coy (regulars, natives) CPT J.A.A. de Vries
Inf Coy (regulars, natives) CPT W. Bouma
Kort Verband Coy CPT W.E.F. Wasch
5 squads from Parepare/Madjene/Enrekang 1LT G.A. Blume
3 squads Reservekorps 1LT J.E.G. Voll
Militie/Landstorm Coy CPT F. Abbink
Stadswacht CPT F.C. Mabesonne
Detachment MG/mortars 1LT J.D. de Bats 2 Vickers MMG, 4 80mm mortars
2x 7,5cm Lang 35 (CD) 1LT T.H. Smits Sibinga

Parepare:
6 squads (regulars)

Enrekang:
2 squads (regulars)
Depot Guerilla forces LTC A.L. Gortmans (untrained, all deserted after the Japanese landed)

Palopo:
5 squads (regulars) CPT B.H. de Vries
came over from Paloe in Jan '42




as always the Stadswacht is left out....

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< Message edited by Harald Velemans -- 12/21/2008 10:26:31 AM >

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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/21/2008 10:07:15 AM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Garnizoen Manokwari CPT J.B.H. Willemsz Geeroms

73 regulars, 56 european militia




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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/21/2008 10:17:11 AM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
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From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Timor Garrison LTC W.E.C. Detiger

a total of 27 squads (regulars), broken down as follows:

5 squads, 4 Vickers MMG at Atamboea
8 squads, 4 Vickers MMG, 2 Overvalwagen at Koepang
3 squads at Kalabahi (Alor)
4 squads at Larantoeka (Flores)
4 squads at Ende (Flores)
2 squads at Waingapoe (Soemba)
1 squad at Bima (Soembawa)

8 Jan 1942:
5 squads, 4 Vickers MMG at Atamboea
15 squads, 4 Vickers MMG, 2 Overvalwagen at Koepang, of these 6 were detached to the Dilly-expeditie!
3 squads at Kalabahi (Alor)
3 squads at Waingapoe (Soemba)
1 squad at Bima (Soembawa)

There were 40 to 100 men Reservekorps, but these men didn't fight.




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Post #: 923
RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/21/2008 10:24:55 AM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
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From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Dilly-expeditie LTC N.L.W. van Straten

this force occupied Dili on Dec 17, 1941 (so delay is set to 411217)

3rd Coy (menadoneze), VIII Inf Batallion CPT J.E. van Buuren
3 MG sections and two mortar sections from the MG Coy XIII Inf Battalion
6 squads (regulars) from Timor 1LT J.C.L. Stoll
battery of four 7,5cm Lang 30 from 1st Field Arty Bn 1LT T. de Winter
2 squads combat engineers 1LT W. Muusze (1 squad returned to Java before the Japs attacked)
40 Korps Barisan





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< Message edited by Harald Velemans -- 12/22/2008 6:30:43 PM >

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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/21/2008 10:27:37 AM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		later on I'll post the Borneo garrisons...

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Post #: 925
RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/21/2008 11:20:43 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Interesting again good stuff at Makasser I have quite similar data in AE

There is one overarching base force for Sulawesi with 3 detachements at Kendari, Makasser and Menado

The one at Makasser is called Sulawesi/III

It has
2 x 75mm CD
15 Av Support
20 x Support
5 x Engineers
3 x KNIL Militia Squad


The Makasser Bn has

36 x KNIL Rifle Sections
24 x KNIL militia Sections
3 x KNIL Vickers Sections
4 x 80mm Mortars
39 x Support

Comparing what I have in AE now to Haralds data it looks like I need to remove about 6 of my Militia Sections and 2 of the Vickers sections

p.s. Harald the reason I have given all these Bns a standard TOE is to allow players the choice of where they deploy the very limited KNIL replacements without having to move whole units and because as a matter of policy I prefer not to have units without TOE's defined.


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Post #: 926
RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/21/2008 11:50:35 AM   
Dutch_slith


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From: the Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

There is one overarching base force for Sulawesi with 3 detachements at Kendari, Makasser and Menado

The one at Makasser is called Sulawesi/III

It has
2 x 75mm CD
15 Av Support
20 x Support
5 x Engineers
3 x KNIL Militia Squad



Sulawesi's former name was Celebes. Did you ever considered to strip the base forces and to give them only Support/Engineer squads?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

p.s. Harald the reason I have given all these Bns a standard TOE is to allow players the choice of where they deploy the very limited KNIL replacements without having to move whole units and because as a matter of policy I prefer not to have units without TOE's defined.




I see.

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Post #: 927
RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/21/2008 12:08:08 PM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Western Department Garrison LTC D.P.F. Mars

Pontianak
4 squads at Naval Base
3 squads (regulars) in training (to man the 8 Vickers MMGs and the 5 80mm mortars)
Stadswacht 125 men 1LT W.P.J. Andersen

Mampawah
2 squads (regulars)

Soengei Pinjoe / Mendjalin
1 squad (regulars)

Mandor / Ngabang
1 squad (regulars)

Bengkajang / Ledo
1 squad (regulars)

Sambas
3 squads (regulars) at the Naval Base
2 squads (regulars)

Sanggau / Ledo
14 squads (regulars)

Singkawang II
13 squads, 3 Vickers Carden Lloyd light tanks, 2 Overvalwagen, 2 40mm Bofors, 3 12.7mm AAMGs CPT A.J.E. van der Meij
One of the tanks - the amphibian - was decommissioned immedeately after arrival.

Sintang
3 squads (regulars)
Stadswacht

Kustwachten (coast guards)
1,5 squads (regulars)






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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/21/2008 12:27:56 PM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Tarakan Garrison LTC S. de Waal

VII Inf Bn
3 Inf Companies with 18 instead of 9 LMGs each CPT F. Treffers, CPT A.C. Saraber, CPT L. Bendeler
1 MG Coy with 18-24 Vickers MMGs, 6 80mm Mortars CPT W. Everaars
7 Overvalwagen with 80 men 1LT D.P. de Vos tot Nederveen Cappel

3rd Kust- en Luchtdoelartillerie CPT M.J. Bakker
coastal battery of 4 7,5cm Lang 55 1LT Van der Zijde
2 coastal batteries (between Penengki and Karoengan) of each 3 7,5cm Lang 40 1LT J.W. Storm van Leeuwen
coastal battery of 4 12cm Lang 40 (Karoengan) 1LT J.P.A. van Adrichem
battery of 3 7,5cm Lang 30 at Lingkas 1LT J. Verdam
battery of 2 7cm Lang 14 at Lingkas, manned by militia, obsolete guns
AA guns under command of 2LT T. Nijenhuis
2 40mm Bofors at Karoengan
2 40mm Bofors at Peningki
2 sections of each 2 20mm and 10 to 12 12.7mm AAMGs

30 pioneers and 40 militarized BPM personnel 1LT J.W. van den Belt






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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/21/2008 12:37:38 PM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Balikpapan Garrison LTC C. van den Hoogenband

VI Inf Bn
MG Coy CPT J.H.C. Biekart with 24 Vickers MMG, 8 80mm mortars, 2 20mm ATR, 3 Overvalwagen with 30 men
2nd Coy (menadoneze) CPT H.W. Hartwig with 18 instead of 9 LMGs
3rd Coy (javaneze) with 18 instead of 9 LMGs

Stadswacht/Landwacht
mostly chinese and menadoneze, about 80 men

2nd Kust- en Luchtdoelartillerie CPT G.T. Ferguson
Kampong Baroe battery
3 12cm Lang 40, the fourth gun was on Java for repairs
Klandasan battery
2 7,5cm Lang 40
2 7,5cm Lang 55
beach battery
2 7cm Lang 25
2 mobile batteries each with 3 7,5cm Lang 30
2 40mm Bofors at Goenoeng Sepoeloeh
3 sections each with 3 12.7mm AAMGs at Klandasan

Genie
4 searchlights 110cm
12 infantry searchlights
20 Pioneers 130 militarized BPM personnel







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