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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/9/2009 3:50:42 AM

Blackhorse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
Then there's that whole confusing Regiment/Squadron/Troop mess.

It's all a matter of perspective. For me, Regiments, Squadrons and Troops are easy to understand . . . its the differences between the ADs, AVs, AVPs, AVDs, AMs, AKs, xAKs, &tc that I find confusing.

And I'm sure that has nothing to do with the fact that I'm a proud veteran of Fox Troop (also Hawg Company), 2nd Squadron, 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment or that the only ship I've ever boarded was a Caribbean Cruise ship.

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(in reply to Don Bowen)

Post #: 1081

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/9/2009 4:36:48 AM

2ndACR

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Yep, easy as pie.

Eagle troop, 2nd Squadron, 2nd Armored Cavalry. A Squadron has:

3 Cav Troops
1 HHC Troop
1 How Battery
1 Tank Company

See easy as pie. 3 Cav Sqdrns, 1 Air Cav Squadron, 1 Regimental Support Squadron in the Regiment........

Long live the true Armored Cavalry Regiments!!!! Do away with armored Div and go to ACR's.

oh yeah.......shame on the US Army for changing the 2nd to what it is today.

< Message edited by 2ndACR -- 1/9/2009 4:37:28 AM >

(in reply to Blackhorse)

Post #: 1082

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/9/2009 6:15:47 AM

Yamato hugger

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Never understood why the army got away from regimental combat teams and went with brigades in the first place.

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Post #: 1083

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/9/2009 12:57:09 PM

Don Bowen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
Then there's that whole confusing Regiment/Squadron/Troop mess.

It's all a matter of perspective. For me, Regiments, Squadrons and Troops are easy to understand . . . its the differences between the ADs, AVs, AVPs, AVDs, AMs, AKs, xAKs, &tc that I find confusing.

And I'm sure that has nothing to do with the fact that I'm a proud veteran of Fox Troop (also Hawg Company), 2nd Squadron, 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment or that the only ship I've ever boarded was a Caribbean Cruise ship.

Yeah, but.

What's the size of a US World War II Tank Troop, Squadron, Regiment?
What's the size of a British World War II Tank Troop, Squadron, Regiment?

(in reply to Blackhorse)

Post #: 1084

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/9/2009 1:13:17 PM

JeffroK

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Yeah, but.

What's the size of a US World War II Tank Troop, Squadron, Regiment?
If I'm not mistaken, the US Army used Tank platoons & Tank Companies. The Tank Rgts were in 1,2 & 3 Armoured Divs and each had approx 150 Light or Medium Tanks.

What's the size of a British World War II Tank Troop, Squadron, Regiment?
4-5 AFV in a Troop, 15-17 AFV in a Squadron & 50ish AFV in a Rgt. I think there were differences between Armoured Rgt & Tank Rgt TOE.

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Post #: 1085

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/9/2009 1:54:46 PM

Don Bowen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Yeah, but.

What's the size of a US World War II Tank Troop, Squadron, Regiment?
If I'm not mistaken, the US Army used Tank platoons & Tank Companies. The Tank Rgts were in 1,2 & 3 Armoured Divs and each had approx 150 Light or Medium Tanks.

What's the size of a British World War II Tank Troop, Squadron, Regiment?
4-5 AFV in a Troop, 15-17 AFV in a Squadron & 50ish AFV in a Rgt. I think there were differences between Armoured Rgt & Tank Rgt TOE.

That's the issue. The US and British terms were one off:
"Battalion" = US Squadron, British Regiment
"Company" = US Troop, British Squadron
"Platoon" = US Platoon, British Troop

(in reply to JeffroK)

Post #: 1086

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/9/2009 2:25:02 PM

kmussler

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Hi Don,
� I'm working with a copy of the official UK OOB for WWII.�� Looking at the breakdown of an Armoured Brigade (10/1940) says a troop is 3 crusier tanks, a squadron�(4 troops) equals 12 crusiers plus�2 crusiers and 2 close support tanks (HQ Sqdrn), and a regiment is 3 squadrons, plus 4 crusier-HQ sqdrn.� Total regimental strength is listed as 46 crusiers, 6 close support tanks.�
From 2/1942 to 8/1942, the regimental TO&E changed. Each squadron added a troop of crusiers and the HQ squadron added 8 AA tanks. Also during this time (starting in Europe and N Africa first) the regiments became armed with US equipment.
Then in 11/43, regimental TO&E changed for the HQ Sqdrn. It added 11 LT tanks for Recce and subracted 2 AA tanks.
I'll keep looking to see if there were any peculiarities for the India/Burma theater.

Kurt

edited:

< Message edited by kmussler -- 1/9/2009 7:36:15 PM >

(in reply to Don Bowen)

Post #: 1087

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/9/2009 2:38:27 PM

Don Bowen

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Based on HistoryGuy's excellent and very interesting post, I've gone back and done some review of Philippine Army Artillery.

Trota (The Philippine Army, 1935-1942) lists total Philippine Army artillery assets as of 12 November, 1941 as 96 75mm and 52 2.95inch guns. However, subsequent issues to Philippine Army FA Regiments apparently exceed this total by 16 75mm and 4(+) 2.95in. It is well documented that four 2.95 in guns had been sent to Mindanao for training, and I've always assumed that this accounted for the 4-gun discrepancy of 2.95inchers. As for the 75mm guns, I can only guess. Corregidor did not leave until after war began, so her cargo could not account for the discrepancy.

It had been planned to transfer additional artillery from US FA units to Philippine Regiments when new equipment was received. There were 20 spare 75mm guns on the Pensacola convoy (which never arrived) and may have been others in US depots. There were considerable numbers of 3inch AA guns in storage.

I have gone back to Trota, and note the following paragraph:
The available guns were juggled around according to priorities. The 11th and 21st Divisions, assigned to guard the strategic Lingayen Gulf area, were allotted sixteen 75s and 8 2.95s each. The 31st, 41st, and 51st, defending the Central and Southern Luzon area, were each allotted sixteen 75s and four 2.95s. The 71st Division and the 91st Division, moved to Luzon as strategic reserves, were assigned eight 75s each plus twelve 2.95 for the 71st and eight for the 91st. The Visayas were to be guarded by sixteen 75s and twelve old 3-inch Naval guns. The only guns allocated to the Mindanao area � the 101st Division � were four 2.95s. (note: this data was submitted for use in the AE OOB).

Combined with HistoryGuy's indication that the 81st FA had one section of 2.95in guns, I now wonder if some additional 2.95in guns had been sent to the Visayas for training (as with the four to Mindanao) and not counted in the "Luzon" totals. The allocation of 16 75mm guns for the Visayas ties in with the planned allocation of the 61st and 81st FA Regiments from other sources. It is difficult to believe that 16 75mm guns would have been sent to the Visayas pre-war, especially since the FA units on Luzon had not recieved all of theirs.

I can find no additional data on the 12 Naval 3-inch guns mentioned. I do have data (somewhere) on the railroad guns (8inch if I recall) sent to the Philippines for use as CD batteries in the Visayas but never used - save one that was installed on Bataan post war and test fired but never used in combat. There was considerable preparation for extensive CD defenses on major sea passages south of Manila but very little actual work (funding issues frequently mentioned).

Note: At least one source indicates that the 101st FA on Mindanao may have received five 2.95 guns instead of four. This may be confusion with surrounding the loss of one gun at Davao just after war began.

< Message edited by Don Bowen -- 1/9/2009 2:56:09 PM >

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Post #: 1088

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/9/2009 2:54:18 PM

Don Bowen

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Here is some old data I have on Dutch equipment (put together from multiple sources):

Multiple shipments of aircraft, tanks, and other military equipment enroute to the Netherlands East Indies were diverted to Australia when the
Japanese overran Java. Here is the list that I have so far (and I'd appreciate any additional information that anyone else might have).

SS Bantam - 18 P-40E, 29 Marmon-Herrington Tanks, 4 37mm A/T guns, 1595 M1928 (Thompson) sub-machine guns, 20 M501 Searchlights
USAT Mapia - 6 DB-7B, 4 Brewster-439, 10 OS2U Kingfisher, 3 Marmon-Herrington Tanks, 25 M3 Light Tanks, 2 37mm A/T Guns
SS Sloterdijk - 10 Brewster-439, 7 CW-22B Falcon
SS Tabian - 3 Brewster-439, 7 OS2U Kingfisher, 12 Marmon-Herrington Tanks, 4 37mm A/T Guns, 375 Johnson semi-automatic rifles, 10,000 Enfield
rifles
SS Tabinta - 3 DB-7B
SS Tarakan - 5 DB-7B, 5 Lockheed L-12
SS Tjibesar - 4 Brewster-439, 14 CW-22B Falcon
SS Tosari (or Tossari??) - 3 DB-7B, 25 M3 Light Tanks, 9580 Enfield rifles
SS Weltevreden - 5 DB-7B, 7 OS2U Kingfisher, 10 Marmon-Herrington Tanks, 6 M3 155mm Guns, 8 7.62mm Hotchkiss Machine Guns, 700 Ivor Johnson .38
revolvers, 10 TFQ 108" range finders.
SS Zaandam - 5 Brewster-439 (reached Tjilatjap but did not unload - took on 892 refugees and withdrew to Australia)
In addition, 36 Ryan STM and 6 De Havilland Tiger Moth Trainers were evacuated from the NEI aboard SS Tjinegara (with the intention of setting
up a primary flight school for Dutch pilots in Australia).
All of these cargos were unloaded in Australian Ports and allocated to the US, Australian and surviving NEI forces. Note that 21 Brewster-439
are listed but one of the was a previous model 339. There were only 20 of the model 439.

The Dutch had ordered 628 Marmon-Herrington light tanks in 3 models:
CTLS 4TA (Dutch 2-man) with 3 MG - 234 ordered
CTMS-ITBI (Dutch 3-man) with a 37mm (some sources say 20mm) gun and 2 MG - 194 ordered
MTLS-IGI4 (Dutch 4-man Tank) with two 37mm in a turret - 200 ordered
The first 80 of the CTLS model were aboard the Straat Soenda which sank in shallow water off Java prior to unloading - partially flooding her
cargo hold. Most of these were salvaged but had been in salt water for several days and only a few (7?) were repaired by the time of the
Japanese Invasion.
A further 54 CTLS were enroute aboard 4 merchant ships and were diverted to Australia. Eventually a total of 149 2-man tanks were received in
Australia. Many of these were temporarily issued to US and Australian forces for training and patrol work and three were briefly used by the
combined Dutch/Australian defense force at Merauke, New Guinea. Most were eventually broken up by the Ford Motor Company at Geelong, Victoria to
salvage their engines and armor.
Initial allocations to Australian Forces:
10 each to:
1st Australian Army Tank Battalion (July, 1942)
2nd Australian Army Tank Battalion (July, 1942)
8 each to:
2/8th Australian Armoured Regiment (April 1942)
2/10th Australian Armoured Regiment (April 1942)
1 Australian Armoured Corps Training Regiment (June 1942)
Army Tank Training Battalion (August 1942)
13 Motorised Regiment (June 1942)
104 Motorised Regiment (June 1942)
18 Motorised regiment (June 1942)
A July 24, 1942 inventory listed 141 units:
12 Australian Armoured Regiment (previously 13 Motorised Regiment) - 8
13 Australian Armoured Regiment (previously 104 Motorised Regiment - 8
14 Australian Armoured Regiment (previously 18 Motorised Regiment) - 8
3rd Australian Army Tank Brigade (comprising 1, 2 & 3 Aust Army Tank Bn) - 20
Australian AFV School - 10
Royal Military College, Duntroon - 3
1st Australian Armd Corps Training Regiment - 8
2nd Australian Armd Corps Training Regiment - 8
3rd Australian Armd Corps Training Regiment - 8
4th Australian Armd Corps Training Regiment - 8
Ordnance Depots � Victoria - 4
Ordnance Depots � New South Wales - 48
A list from December, 1942 gives 138 units but no breakdown of disposition.

The remainder of the Dutch order was taken over by the US and some went to US units in North America as the T-14 (CTLS-4TAC - left hand drive
variant) and T-16 (CTLS-4TAY - right hand drive variant). Primarily used for training but a few were sent to Alaska for local defense. One unit
was used to test the ability of tanks to operate on Alaskan Tunda at Cold Bay - it immediately sank and was never recovered.
Approximately 82 of these were sent to China.
8 CTMS-ITBI went to Cuba in 1942 and at least 5 were still in service in 1959 and were used against Castro.
76 Units were delivered to Dutch forces in Suriname and the Antilles (26 CTLS-4TA, 28 CTMS-1TBI, 20 MTLS-1GI4). Some of these were apparently
used by U.S. garrison units in the Antilles.
Twelve CTMS-ITBI went to Equador and six to Guatemala in 1942. Mexico received four CTMS-ITBI and also operated the earlier CTVL (built in
1936).

The Dutch also received 49 ex-South African Marmon-Herrington armored cars in 1941. These were worn-out veterans of the North African desert
campaign and were in very-poor shape. Only 27 had been made operational by the Japanese Invasion. Fourteen of these (and 7 of the
Marmon-Herrington Tanks) went to the Mobiele Eenheid (Mobile Column).

(in reply to Don Bowen)

Post #: 1089

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/9/2009 7:10:03 PM

Ol_Dog

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My Uncle was in the 2nd Armored Cavalry - but that was back when it was scouting for Gen Patton.

He did mention he spent D-Day in jail. He and a buddy were picked up walking away from the docks as the soldiers were loading. They were carrying loaded weapons, carried no unit identification or orders, and would only give their name, rank and serial number when questioned.

As he told it, they were standing in front of a General as he told them they were going to be shot as deserters or shot as spies if they didn't start answering questions, when the phone rang. He answered it, then shaking his head, he looked back at them and said - "They just brought in 6 more like you - carrying loaded weapons, no orders and refusing to answer questions. I guess you are from some damn secret outfit. It's a hell of a way to run a war."

It wasn't until after D-Day that an officer came to get them and admitted they were Patton's men. They had been assigned to guard the troop and supply ships before the regular troops boarded, and as Patton's men, they were supposed to be up North getting ready to attack Calais, nowhere near the docks in southern England.

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Post #: 1090

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/9/2009 9:07:27 PM

Dutch_slith

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Here is some old data I have on Dutch equipment (put together from multiple sources):

The Dutch also received 49 ex-South African Marmon-Herrington armored cars in 1941. These were worn-out veterans of the North African desert
campaign and were in very-poor shape. Only 27 had been made operational by the Japanese Invasion. Fourteen of these (and 7 of the
Marmon-Herrington Tanks) went to the Mobiele Eenheid (Mobile Column).

The dutch name for the South African Marmon-Herrington armored cars was zuidafrikaanse Pantserautos. All 49 were armed with 2 Vickers MMGs.

Deployment:
Tjepoe Detachment 9
Afdeling Van Dongen 10 (attached to the Van Altena Detachment)
Afdeling Punter 5 (attached to the Van Altena Detachment)
Afdeling Ritman 17 (according to Heshusius 14)
Mobiele Eenheid 3
Update! Maospati Airfield 3 (attached to Reservekorps)

nothing is known about the remaining 2, but according to Stellan Bojerud all were in service in march 1942.

Sources:
J.J. Nortier, P. Kuijt, P.M.H. Groen De Japanse aanval op Java
C.A. Heshusius KNIL-Cavalerie 1814 - 1950

on route to Java, diverted to Australia (this list was prepared by E.J.C. te Roller on march 24th, 1942):
60 B-25C (out of 162 purchased)
36 P-40 (Kittyhawk Mk IA, 18 of these were already in Australia)
72 Hawker Hurricane Mk IIB (returned to Canada)
14 Lockheed 212 (ready for shipment)
25 Ryan STM-2
162 Brewster 340
24 Beechcraft
48 Douglas DB-7 (to be delivered from april 1942 onwards)
12 PBY-5A Catalina to 321 (Dutch) Squadron
8 Lockheed Lodestar (to be delivered from april 1942 onwards)
10 Douglas DC-3 (to be delivered from august 1942 onwards)
10 Douglas C-47A (3 to be delivered in march/april/may, the remainder in 1943)

also shipped to Australia...
21 CW-22 Falcon
16 Brewster Buffalo B-339D
6 Lockheed 212
32 Douglas DB-7
24 Vought-Sikorsky VS-310 (OS2U-3 Kingfisher)
12 B-25C (out of 162 purchased)

plus a few aircraft which arrived in India in march 1942
5 B-25C (out of 162 puchased)
2 Lockheed 212

Source:
O.G. Ward De Militaire Luchtvaart van het KNIL in de jaren 1942-1945

321 (Dutch) Squadron:
14 Liberator VI in december 1944
7 Liberator VI in may 1945

Source:
L. Honselaar Vleugels van de Vloot

Harald

< Message edited by Harald Velemans -- 1/23/2009 4:14:30 PM >

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Post #: 1091

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/10/2009 12:13:20 AM

Alikchi2

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The mention of the Brewster 439 interested me because I hadn't heard of it before. Did some quick research:

quote:

The government of the Netherlands East Indies ordered another 20 aircraft in preparation of the War with Japan. These aircraft had a slightly better performance due to the powerplant: the Wright GR-1820-G205A Cyclone radial rated at 1200 hp (895 kW). Only three were delivered before the Dutch capitulated to the Japanese, and the remaining 17 B-439's were sent to Australia where they were used for Photo reconnaissance.
Number built: 20

Is the B-439 modeled in AE?

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Post #: 1092

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/10/2009 12:25:48 PM

Terminus

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No.

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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/10/2009 1:06:54 PM

timtom

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Yes.

< Message edited by timtom -- 1/10/2009 1:07:20 PM >

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Post #: 1094

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/10/2009 1:25:05 PM

Terminus

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Where? I can find the -339, and the various marks of Buffalo, but not the -439...

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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/10/2009 3:58:14 PM

timtom

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Slots 177 & 178.

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Post #: 1096

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/10/2009 4:41:13 PM

HistoryGuy

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IMO Parker was way too passive. I think he was overwhelmed by events (hence the comparison to Fredendall. Luckily his subordinate commanders were pretty aggressive, as demonstrated by the failure of all of the Japanese amphibious end runs. But then again, I am a former armored cavalry (A/3-4th, 3d ID USAREUR) troop commander and squadron S-3. Parker's command style would seem pretty tame to any cavalry officer.

Thanks to Dan B. for mentioning Trato in subsequent posts! I ordered the only copy I could find on the entire web for my current writing project at CMH on indigenous armies. That tidbit alone makes perusing the AE land thread totally worthwhile.

(in reply to Blackhorse)

Post #: 1097

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/10/2009 5:03:21 PM

Terminus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: timtom

Slots 177 & 178.

D'oh! There they are...

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Post #: 1098

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/10/2009 10:33:56 PM

Don Bowen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

quote:

ORIGINAL: timtom

Slots 177 & 178.

D'oh! There they are...

But in RAAF markings??

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Post #: 1099

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/10/2009 10:35:59 PM

Terminus

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Yup.

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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/10/2009 10:47:38 PM

JeffroK

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Is this a "what if".

The RAAF didnt use any Brewster 439's

The only Brewsters taken up from DEI sources were 17 Brewster 339-23's

They equate to the F2A-3 used my a Marine Sqn on the West Coast, but not by any other units in the Pacific.

< Message edited by JeffK -- 1/10/2009 10:55:08 PM >

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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/10/2009 10:50:26 PM

Terminus

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Seems to be a matter of some disagreement...

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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/10/2009 11:37:24 PM

Don Bowen

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They were know as model 339-23 in RAAF service. This was the Brewster modification series number. B439 appears to have been an export designation. RAAF serial numbers beginning with A51-1.

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Post #: 1103

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/10/2009 11:50:55 PM

timtom

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What I meant to say was that the Bufs-ordered-by-the-Dutch-used-by-the-Ozzies are the ones that are in the AE. Jeff is right that the correct designation, as I understand it, was B339-23 with the 950HP Wright 1820-G5 mounted, essentially, on a F2A-3 fusalage. The latter fact might help explain some of the confusion over the exact designation of this particular a/c found in various references.

Now would you all care to join me over on the air thread for another round of "Sherman vs T95 Ha-Go"?

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Post #: 1104

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/11/2009 1:37:21 AM

JeffroK

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I assumed the land thread was correct as the Buff was next to useless in the Air.

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Post #: 1105

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/11/2009 11:16:08 AM

timtom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I assumed the land thread was correct as the Buff was next to useless in the Air.

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Post #: 1106

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/11/2009 1:10:12 PM

Sardaukar

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Finnish Air Force will contest that statement...

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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/11/2009 1:47:31 PM

herwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I assumed the land thread was correct as the Buff was next to useless in the Air.

The F2A was moderately superior to the A5M and about the same amount inferior to the A6M and F4F3. Are you claiming that the A5M was useless (as the Buff was next to useless)?

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Post #: 1108

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/11/2009 1:48:57 PM

Terminus

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Okay, I think this has gone on far enough, don't you? Take this to another thread, if you'd be so good.

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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 1/11/2009 4:21:21 PM

Andy Mac

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