Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: bsq
Done some more research.

Late war models of the Lancaster were fitted to carry the 8000lb and 12000lb HC - the only aircraft that could carry bombs that big without significant modification (as per the aircraft that carried the heavier atomic weapons).

The 12000lb HC is not the same as the tallboy - it has a completely different mode of employment. The tallboy/grandslam were the ultimate penetration weapons of their time - designed to penetrate yards of earth or feet of concrete before exploding. The HC's were designed to have maximum blast effect with an explosive load of around 90% of total weapon weight as opposed to the less than 70% of more conventional HE bombs.

You asked what Tiger Force could be used for, well there is a definite use - carrying large HC bombs which no other aircraft could do.

That would be something worthwhile seeing, especially in the Downfall scenario that Terminus has alluded to. (Else I'll have to mod them in my self to a full war game and then wait the 1400 turns to see what they actually do )

quote:

ORIGINAL: sven6345789

Yokosuka Naval yard
Helen factory and Toka Factory seem to be producing already (14 and 2 respectively); are listed as R&D in the replacement list in the intelligence screen.

Where's the Any key?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DBS

quote:

ORIGINAL: bsq
Done some more research.

Late war models of the Lancaster were fitted to carry the 8000lb and 12000lb HC - the only aircraft that could carry bombs that big without significant modification (as per the aircraft that carried the heavier atomic weapons).

The 12000lb HC is not the same as the tallboy - it has a completely different mode of employment. The tallboy/grandslam were the ultimate penetration weapons of their time - designed to penetrate yards of earth or feet of concrete before exploding. The HC's were designed to have maximum blast effect with an explosive load of around 90% of total weapon weight as opposed to the less than 70% of more conventional HE bombs.

You asked what Tiger Force could be used for, well there is a definite use - carrying large HC bombs which no other aircraft could do.

That would be something worthwhile seeing, especially in the Downfall scenario that Terminus has alluded to. (Else I'll have to mod them in my self to a full war game and then wait the 1400 turns to see what they actually do )

But the 12000lb HC needed a special model of Lancaster, which was only ever issued to 617 Squadron. Used from 1943 until the Tallboy came along in June 1944. They were intended for attacking canal banks and viaducts, but actually proved more effective vs conventional industrial targets. To be honest, I don't see it being a weapon of choice for Tiger Force - it was a swine of a weapon to handle (the bomb trolley only had 4.5 inches of ground clearance and that proved troublesome enough on a nicely built pre-war airfield in Lincolnshire, let alone a rapidly built field somewhere on a Pacific island) - and the only squadron that could use it was better employed with Tallboys and Grand Slams.

The 8000lb HC could be carried by umodified Main Force Lancs and Halifaxes, but again I don't see this being a major Tiger Force option, even if the bomb bay fuel tank would have permitted it. Compared to the 4000lb HC, the 8000lb obviously had greater effect on point targets, but the 4000lb seems to have been more effective for its weight in general city or industrial attacks. The classic late-war bombload for a Main Force Lanc on a city attack was 1 x 4000lb HC, and 1060 4lb incendiaries (the latter in 10 x aimable clusters @106 4lbs). For a precision industrial or transport attack, the incendiaries would be replaced by 16 x 500lb MCs, with perhaps the odd GP swapped in if they wanted a few delayed action fuses to bugger up the enemy's clearance efforts.

During the war, Bomber Command dropped, among many other natures:
41 x Grand Slams
854 x Tallboys
193 x 12000lb HC
1088 x 8000lb HC
68000 x 4000lb HC
28633 x 2000lb HC

3 million 30lb phos incendiaries
80 million 4lb incendiaries


David

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Scen 1

Air Unit 3211 - No 100 Sqn RAF has Australian nationality

The RAAF formed a separate 100 Sqn.

IFF it was done because Australian pilots/crews were in the unit, more than half of the RAF should be tagged as Australian, New Zealand or Canadian.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bsq

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Scen 1

Air Unit 3211 - No 100 Sqn RAF has Australian nationality

The RAAF formed a separate 100 Sqn.

IFF it was done because Australian pilots/crews were in the unit, more than half of the RAF should be tagged as Australian, New Zealand or Canadian.

As stated elsewhere, 100 Sqn RAF was based in the far east under RAAF chain of command until it disbanded to be replaced (ultimately) by 100 Sqn RAAF, in the same role. The original, upon reforming in the UK, changed from Light to Heavy Bombers ending up with Lancasters as part of No 1 Group, which would mean that would not have returned as part of Tiger Force.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

quote:

ORIGINAL: bsq

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Scen 1

Air Unit 3211 - No 100 Sqn RAF has Australian nationality

The RAAF formed a separate 100 Sqn.

IFF it was done because Australian pilots/crews were in the unit, more than half of the RAF should be tagged as Australian, New Zealand or Canadian.

As stated elsewhere, 100 Sqn RAF was based in the far east under RAAF chain of command until it disbanded to be replaced (ultimately) by 100 Sqn RAAF, in the same role. The original, upon reforming in the UK, changed from Light to Heavy Bombers ending up with Lancasters as part of No 1 Group, which would mean that would not have returned as part of Tiger Force.

What RAAF Chain of Command??
Even 1,8,21 & 453 flew under RAF Command?

No. 100 Squadron was formed at RAAF Base Richmond on 15 February 1942. The Squadron was formed from a nucleus of No. 100 Squadron RAF, which had been destroyed during the Malayan Campaign, and was named in this Squadron's honour. Despite this link No. 100 Squadron RAAF was an Australian squadron throughout its existence and should not be confused with its British namesake, which was re-formed as a heavy bomber squadron in Britain on 15 December 1942.

From the RAAF History.
The first unit to receive the new aircraft was No . 100 Squadron R.A.A.F. The
number was derived from the R.A.F. squadron that had fought with forlorn
distinction in Malaya until its obsolete Vildebeeste aircraft and mos t
of its pilots had been lost.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bsq
The specials are in the game and as for 617 being the only ones to drop the 12000lb, that's more down to circumstance than any thing else as they were not the only Lancaster Sqn equipped with specials, 9 Sqn also carried weapons to 12000lb and could have dropped either the Tallboy (as it did on the Tirpitz raids) or the larger HC.
My research so far has turned up the following Squadrons with B Mk I and B Mk III aircraft which were fitted with the mods to allow the carriage of weapons to 12000lb
[snip]
9 Sqn
44 Sqn
57 Sqn (from where 617 often had to borrow trolleys!)
75 (NZ) Sqn
617 Sqn

quote:

ORIGINAL: DBS

quote:

ORIGINAL: bsq
The specials are in the game and as for 617 being the only ones to drop the 12000lb, that's more down to circumstance than any thing else as they were not the only Lancaster Sqn equipped with specials, 9 Sqn also carried weapons to 12000lb and could have dropped either the Tallboy (as it did on the Tirpitz raids) or the larger HC.
My research so far has turned up the following Squadrons with B Mk I and B Mk III aircraft which were fitted with the mods to allow the carriage of weapons to 12000lb
[snip]
9 Sqn
44 Sqn
57 Sqn (from where 617 often had to borrow trolleys!)
75 (NZ) Sqn
617 Sqn

I may be wrong, but I am by no means convinced that the aircraft modified for 617 to use the 12000 lb HC actually equates to those modified for Tallboy and Grand Slam carriage; the problem may be in the use of "special" vs "Special" to describe the mods. My source for the statement that only 617 were equipped to carry the 12000 HC is the excellent history of UK bombs by Hogben and MacBean, and given the latter was the wartime armament officer for 57 Sqn, I think he might be expected to know whether his own squadron could carry the weapon!

Anyway, the bottom line remains that the 12000 HC was a weapon which had been wholly superseded by Tallboy by 1945. The only use considered vs Japan was for harbour attack, in 1944, but that required a weapon which could carry a delayed action fuse and tests confirmed that the 12000 HC instead would break up on impact so the idea was binned.

The interest in AAR was chiefly a little earlier in the war when the RAF was exploring the possibility of bombing Japan from Burmese bases. Although the experiments had worked well, I think it would have been another matter entirely to have refuelled even small formations reliably.

As for the 8000lb HC, relatively few were carried since it was of dubious effectiveness over and above what could be achieved with the 4000lb, and also it was incompatible with H2S - the diameter of the 8000lb was 4" greater than the 4000lb and I believe the doors had to be slightly bulged as a result.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSImperator

Hey there, really good game this is, but a few nit picky things i've noticed while playing Scenario 2 as the Japs:

1. Is it really meant for the one Tojo unit in Canton and the R&D factory in Harbin to be set to the Ki-44, which has no upgrade path at all, instead of the Ki-44-IIa, which activates at the same time and upgrades through all the rest of the Tojo models?

2. The 266th Sentai, for whatever reason, appears to be set to come onto the board with 122 Helens in reserve.

3. The withdrawal date for the Mogami's second floatplane detachment came up, so i sent them off. However, i am failing to see them on the reinforcement list to come back later, whether in December or ever. Is this a bug of some kind, or something to do with Mogami having historically turned into a FP carrier after Midway?

Created by the amazing Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DBS

Fine. We will have to agree to disagree. Don't mistake me for a 617 worshipper please.

But my bottom line is indeed sound if one is talking about what should go into the game for official release - there is no evidence that I am aware of that the 12000lb HC featured in the plans for Tiger Force. If you choose to mod it in, good luck.

My basic point is that Tiger Force was drawn from a Bomber Command that had become the peerless destroyer of cities (with all due respect to the B-29s' efforts). They knew what worked. And what worked was the 4000lb HC and the 4lb incendiary. Of course other weapons could and were carried for specific targets. But this game cannot, as I understand it, model that level of flexibility. So if one had to choose one loadout as representative of Tiger Force, it isn't going to be the larger sizes of Cookie. Nor should every squadron be toting Tallboys.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bsq

At no point did I state that every Lancaster Sqn should go round toting Tallboys, I said that this was for 9 and 617 Sqns.

quote:


Point of fact for the official release - it uses a 4000lb GP - wrong - it should be HC, higher explosive content and less shrapnel. So perhaps at the expense of its anti armour stats it should have its anti-soft one increased?

quote:


One final point here concerns the special as modelled in the stock game. It carries Tallboys but only appears to have the range of a Lancaster carrying a Grandslam. With the smaller weapon it would have had the range of the standard (non-FE) model.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vettim89

Please look at screenie and tell me if I screwed up by having "accept replacements" on or did the game do this by accident. GC scenario vs AI

Oh, the question is how did so many pilots end up in this unit?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSImperator

Hey there, really good game this is, but a few nit picky things i've noticed while playing Scenario 2 as the Japs:

1. Is it really meant for the one Tojo unit in Canton and the R&D factory in Harbin to be set to the Ki-44, which has no upgrade path at all, instead of the Ki-44-IIa, which activates at the same time and upgrades through all the rest of the Tojo models?

2. The 266th Sentai, for whatever reason, appears to be set to come onto the board with 122 Helens in reserve.

3. The withdrawal date for the Mogami's second floatplane detachment came up, so i sent them off. However, i am failing to see them on the reinforcement list to come back later, whether in December or ever. Is this a bug of some kind, or something to do with Mogami having historically turned into a FP carrier after Midway?

1. This is correct. That unit did exist, made up of prototypes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: R8J

Curious. Why no SC Seahawk?

quote:

ORIGINAL: langleyCV1

Now I would like to point out that 488 Sqn RNZAF upgrades to Hurricanes which it should do, But why are they the Dutch artwork version?

quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSImperator

3. The withdrawal date for the Mogami's second floatplane detachment came up, so i sent them off. However, i am failing to see them on the reinforcement list to come back later, whether in December or ever. Is this a bug of some kind, or something to do with Mogami having historically turned into a FP carrier after Midway?

quote:

ORIGINAL: vettim89

Please look at screenie and tell me if I screwed up by having "accept replacements" on or did the game do this by accident. GC scenario vs AI

Oh, the question is how did so many pilots end up in this unit?

quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

My only minor gripe so far about AE's air combat is the dearth of fighters in Australia early on. There are absolutely no squadrons anywhere! It makes getting ships to Port Moresby much more difficult once Rabaul is handling long range attack planes; even a squadron of Buffalos would help since from time to time Betty comes without her little friends...

quote:

ORIGINAL: bsq

When looking at the drop tanks for all aircraft, the weight seems to be on the light side across the board...

Just taking the 100 litre tank as an example.

100 Litres of AVGAS = 70 Kg (assuming average SG of 0.7 (I know the range is 0.65 - 0.72 but most use 0.7 as best average))

70 Kg = 154 lb

Load cost of the 100 Litre tank is 150 lb - like I say a bit light as an empty tank weighs something.

Nit picking maybe, but as the tanks get larger so does the discrepancy. By the time you get to the largest tank you're looking at 50lb out just on the fuel... so probably nearer 200lb when the tank weight is considered.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ART_11

Also I have a problem with Havoc groups, which on their own decided to move to Port Moresby. I did not anything with this groups, because I have PM overloaded by fighters. After this I move them back to Australia but somee of the damaged planes stay for a while in PM. Game without my involvement created Transport TF to bring them back. How it can happend?

quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSImperator

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSImperator

1. Is it really meant for the one Tojo unit in Canton and the R&D factory in Harbin to be set to the Ki-44, which has no upgrade path at all, instead of the Ki-44-IIa, which activates at the same time and upgrades through all the rest of the Tojo models?

1. This is correct. That unit did exist, made up of prototypes.

oh, i knew about the prototype squadron and such, i just question the factory in Harbin only building more of them without upgrading to anything better.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DBS

Lastly, the Blenheim V comes on stream too late - currently Dec 42. 113 had already re-equipped with Vs by October 42. Given that the Mk V was available in squadron strength by June 42, I would suggest a start date in this game of say July or August 42, since it will take a little time to get enough replacements to convert a squadron.

Where's the Any key?