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RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/12/2008 6:03:14 PM

Alikchi2

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Joined: 5/14/2004
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The instant a player gives an order contrary to one that historically happened, the game becomes uncontrollable and unpredictable, and the war as it happened is unlikely to happen. The idea isn't to prevent "ahistorical" outcomes, as those are inevitable, but to allow players to game out their scenarios within a framework of extreme plausibility.

IMHO, it would be pretty implausible if the Allies were to simiply disband their mobilized armies in Europe in the face of a still-strong Japan in 1945 or 1946 (depending on how well the game has gone for a Japanese player). Then again, during a full WitP AE game, extremely pro-Japanese circumstances probably would have called for reinforcements earlier and less focus on a "Germany First" strategy.

There are ways, theoretically, to make the game more "adaptively plausible" instead of following a rigid and implausible framework. I think it would be interesting to model Allied reinforcements from other theatres based on the Japanese victory point level, their ownership of bases, etc. IE, if Japan captures Hawaii, the US gains several divisions earmarked for Torch.. et cetera.

But I suspect that this sort of thing is OTS and should be reserved for a future project.

(I should note that I'm writing this after staying up all night, so I might be, er, rambling incoherently a bit.. )

< Message edited by Alikchi -- 4/12/2008 6:12:54 PM >

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Post #: 691

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/12/2008 6:19:42 PM

Monter_Trismegistos

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alikchi
I think it would be interesting to model Allied reinforcements from other theatres based on the Japanese victory point level, their ownership of bases, etc. IE, if Japan captures Hawaii, the US gains several divisions earmarked for Torch.. et cetera.

Of course such reinforcements should give allies severe victory point penalty - as these units would be taken from Europe, slowing the pace of operations against Germany, giving more land postwar to Soviets.

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Post #: 692

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/12/2008 6:23:22 PM

Alikchi2

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Joined: 5/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alikchi
I think it would be interesting to model Allied reinforcements from other theatres based on the Japanese victory point level, their ownership of bases, etc. IE, if Japan captures Hawaii, the US gains several divisions earmarked for Torch.. et cetera.

Of course such reinforcements should give allies severe victory point penalty - as these units would be taken from Europe, slowing the pace of operations against Germany, giving more land postwar to Soviets.

Well, not as severe as using the atomic bomb, I think, but that is definitely a thought - I'm too tired to decide whether that's a good idea or not. Still, I think we can agree that a workable system to model realistic reinforcements based on the state of the war between the Allies and Japan could be designed.

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Post #: 693

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/12/2008 7:36:30 PM

Andy Mac

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline

Something similar to what you are proposing is in AE

If the Japanese invade
North India
South Australia
NZ
West Coast

or Allies invade
HI

Then ahistoric forces are added to either side and this is fully exposed int he editor e.g. dont like this rule 2 minutes in the editor and its not a problem.

We tried to be carefull which forces we used for this especially for the allies as their are some consequences we wanted to minimise.

e.g. invade NZ and the allies recieve

28th (Maori) Bn
2nd NZ Div Cav
4th, 5th and 6th NZ Bdes at Aden
51st Highland Div (Capetown - in transit to ME and assumed to be diverted but set to withdraw in time for Sicily)
and an Army Tank Bde at Aden

These forces still need to get to NZ but at least additional forces are en route...

Invade Astralia SOUTH of Brisbane (Have to allow the Japanese some expansion room without consequences)

44th British Div (In transit round the cape at the likely time)
A British Para Bde at London (still mulling that one over)
9th Aus Div is accelerated at Aden
SA Ard Bde and a Rhodesian Inf Bde Gp arrive at Capetown

And India from Delhi North (Again South India is consequence free)
XXI Corps HQ
6th Ind Div
8th Ind Div is accelerated
56th British Div (but withdraws for Sicily)
251st Ard Bde (very low on tanks)
13th Legion Demi Bde (because I felt like it.....it will probably not make the final cut ;))) )

Plus in each case the allies get a one time injection of appropriate squads, devices and supply

Japan recieves a force of about 10 Divs if the HI is invaded early sprad over the HI.

Andy

(in reply to Alikchi2)

Post #: 694

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/12/2008 7:39:51 PM

Andy Mac

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline

p.s. invade West Coast you get 2 US Corps HQ's about 4 Divs and the 12th Manitoba Dragoons

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Post #: 695

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/13/2008 2:33:13 AM

Alikchi2

Posts: 1785
Joined: 5/14/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Something similar to what you are proposing is in AE

If the Japanese invade
North India
South Australia
NZ
West Coast

or Allies invade
HI

Then ahistoric forces are added to either side and this is fully exposed int he editor e.g. dont like this rule 2 minutes in the editor and its not a problem.

We tried to be carefull which forces we used for this especially for the allies as their are some consequences we wanted to minimise.

e.g. invade NZ and the allies recieve

28th (Maori) Bn
2nd NZ Div Cav
4th, 5th and 6th NZ Bdes at Aden
51st Highland Div (Capetown - in transit to ME and assumed to be diverted but set to withdraw in time for Sicily)
and an Army Tank Bde at Aden

These forces still need to get to NZ but at least additional forces are en route...

Invade Astralia SOUTH of Brisbane (Have to allow the Japanese some expansion room without consequences)

44th British Div (In transit round the cape at the likely time)
A British Para Bde at London (still mulling that one over)
9th Aus Div is accelerated at Aden
SA Ard Bde and a Rhodesian Inf Bde Gp arrive at Capetown

And India from Delhi North (Again South India is consequence free)
XXI Corps HQ
6th Ind Div
8th Ind Div is accelerated
56th British Div (but withdraws for Sicily)
251st Ard Bde (very low on tanks)
13th Legion Demi Bde (because I felt like it.....it will probably not make the final cut ;))) )

Plus in each case the allies get a one time injection of appropriate squads, devices and supply

Japan recieves a force of about 10 Divs if the HI is invaded early sprad over the HI.

Andy

OMG! I love you guys

That is excellent!

This editor is going to be fantastic. I'll be able to do some ridiculous things with it.

Would it be possible to bring in Air or Naval reinforcements like this as well?

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Post #: 696

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/13/2008 5:18:56 AM

GaryChildress

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From: The Divided Nations of Earth
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Alikchi-san! Welcome back!

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Post #: 697

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/13/2008 7:20:20 AM

Alikchi2

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Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Alikchi-san! Welcome back!

Thank you Gary!! How've you been, sir?

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Post #: 698

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/13/2008 10:38:55 AM

Alikchi2

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Joined: 5/14/2004
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Will it be possible to alter or extend the timeframe of a scenario in the editor? IE, have the war begin in December 41, and last until 1948? Or 1930-36?

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Post #: 699

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/13/2008 12:33:12 PM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Something similar to what you are proposing is in AE

If the Japanese invade
North India
South Australia
NZ
West Coast

or Allies invade
HI

Then ahistoric forces are added to either side and this is fully exposed int he editor e.g. dont like this rule 2 minutes in the editor and its not a problem.

We tried to be carefull which forces we used for this especially for the allies as their are some consequences we wanted to minimise.

e.g. invade NZ and the allies recieve

28th (Maori) Bn
2nd NZ Div Cav
4th, 5th and 6th NZ Bdes at Aden
51st Highland Div (Capetown - in transit to ME and assumed to be diverted but set to withdraw in time for Sicily)
and an Army Tank Bde at Aden

These forces still need to get to NZ but at least additional forces are en route...

Invade Astralia SOUTH of Brisbane (Have to allow the Japanese some expansion room without consequences)

44th British Div (In transit round the cape at the likely time)
A British Para Bde at London (still mulling that one over)
9th Aus Div is accelerated at Aden
SA Ard Bde and a Rhodesian Inf Bde Gp arrive at Capetown

And India from Delhi North (Again South India is consequence free)
XXI Corps HQ
6th Ind Div
8th Ind Div is accelerated
56th British Div (but withdraws for Sicily)
251st Ard Bde (very low on tanks)
13th Legion Demi Bde (because I felt like it.....it will probably not make the final cut ;))) )

Plus in each case the allies get a one time injection of appropriate squads, devices and supply

Japan recieves a force of about 10 Divs if the HI is invaded early sprad over the HI.

Andy

Very nice - thanks guys!!!

BTW, are there any similar industry increases for Allies if Japan is more succesfull than it was in history (i.e. will there be any more aircraft squadrons available for example)?

Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 700

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/13/2008 1:14:14 PM

GaryChildress

Posts: 6830
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From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alikchi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Alikchi-san! Welcome back!

Thank you Gary!! How've you been, sir?

Couldn't be better now that there's a new WITP coming out.

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Post #: 701

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/13/2008 1:50:58 PM

Alikchi2

Posts: 1785
Joined: 5/14/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alikchi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Alikchi-san! Welcome back!

Thank you Gary!! How've you been, sir?

Couldn't be better now that there's a new WITP coming out.

I'm feeling the same way!

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Post #: 702

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/13/2008 2:43:05 PM

Alikchi2

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Joined: 5/14/2004
Status: offline

And here's yet another question. Will all factions in the Allies be hardcoded "at war"? Or can this be edited as well? Example: I want to make a scenario where Japan attacks only the British, Commonwealth and Dutch, and the US stays out of the war until either a) Japan attacks or b) June 42.

Also, will we be able to add new factions?

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Post #: 703

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/13/2008 2:58:31 PM

Terminus

Posts: 41459
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From: Denmark
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Alikchi-sama, remember that the AE is not a completely built-from-scratch product. We've widened the boundaries of what stock WitP can do enormously (and those new boundaries are creaking at the seams), but it's still built on the product we know today.

Additionally, the features set we've got at the moment is the result of severe shrinkage; I think we started out with 400+ ideas for new features and had to shrink those down to (IIRC) something like 70 or 80 new things that will make it into the gold master. There'll be patches, obviously, but still...

So, to answer your questions:

Earliest start date is still 12/7/41, but the game will work properly past the current stock end game date.

You can't edit the sides, and there is no way to keep one nation (say, the US) out of the war until it's attacked. That's still house rules territory.

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Post #: 704

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/13/2008 3:09:12 PM

Alikchi2

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Joined: 5/14/2004
Status: offline

Oh, I didn't really expect you guys to have the time to rummage through the code for such far-reaching changes. I expect a new, more moddable product within two years though.

All acceptable answers, sir. Thank you.

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Post #: 705

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/13/2008 4:35:07 PM

jwilkerson

Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Alikchi-sama, remember that the AE is not a completely built-from-scratch product. We've widened the boundaries of what stock WitP can do enormously (and those new boundaries are creaking at the seams), but it's still built on the product we know today.

Additionally, the features set we've got at the moment is the result of severe shrinkage; I think we started out with 400+ ideas for new features and had to shrink those down to (IIRC) something like 70 or 80 new things that will make it into the gold master. There'll be patches, obviously, but still...

So, to answer your questions:

Earliest start date is still 12/7/41, but the game will work properly past the current stock end game date.

You can't edit the sides, and there is no way to keep one nation (say, the US) out of the war until it's attacked. That's still house rules territory.

Yes the 400 down to 70 things is a correct view of the "start up" process we went through for enhancement ideas ... but we have added in at least 100 more since starting with the 70 ... though many of these are "minor" enhancements ... which we never intended to capture in the initial list. Those were supposed to be "medium" to "high" complexity items only. Our hope (and expectation) is that everyone will find at least a few things on their list that match up with things we did. Of course there will also be at least few that do not match up. But we could not do everything on everyone's list and still finish.

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Post #: 706

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/13/2008 7:01:46 PM

Dili

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For WITM mod this would be desirable:

-possible to start in 1940
-aerial mining not yearly hardcoded but by device
-ship speed limit not hardcoded(to be�possible to use a 20 mile scale per hex)�
-possible to edit the map like in WITP

The last two are essential.

< Message edited by Dili -- 4/13/2008 7:03:26 PM >

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Post #: 707

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/13/2008 8:40:27 PM

Terminus

Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
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No.

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RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/13/2008 10:05:04 PM

Speedysteve

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline

Hi all,

Any comments on Allied production (apologies if already mentioned)? As in it atill irks me sometimes seeing the Japanese outproduce the US (in particular) on planes. Will Allied production be increased?

Thanks

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Post #: 709

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/14/2008 12:26:34 AM

Dili

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quote:

No.

Didnt you wrote you were out of AE team?

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Post #: 710

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/14/2008 12:42:44 AM

Andy Mac

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline

We are not able to do much in this area Dili we need to focus on WITP and that means a game in the Pacific starting 7/12/41.

If you want WITM then you will need to lobby 2by3 but thats not something that we can work to enable we have enough to do geting AE ready - sorry.

Andy

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Post #: 711

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/14/2008 2:29:27 AM

jwilkerson

Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

quote:

No.�

Didnt you�wrote you were out of AE team?

T. did leave the team in January ... finished his Masters ... and then came back to do one scenario for us .. the "Ten Thousand Mile War" .... i.e. the Aleutians campaign ... hence his "sig" line.

While "no" is a rather short answer .... it is actually is correct for the four items listed .... this being said .. the Editor offers an extreme amount of additional capability over the current stock editor and the map data file format has been enhanced. Both of these capabilities dramatically widen the scope for scenario designers with a focus on the WITP period Dec 7 through 31 Mar 46 ( though the exact end date is still under discussion).

A few of the new editor features:
(1) Land: "in editor" unit break downs with in game recombining still possible. TOE upgrades (not just device upgrades), unit renames, unit withdrawals.
(2) Naval: Classes - rich upgrade/conversion system ... allowing almost anything to convert to almost anything.
(3) Air: Upgrades and withdrawals per land.
(4) General: More of almost everything, more planes, devices, groups, LCUs, HQs, bases, etc.
(5) AI Modules in the editor

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Post #: 712

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/14/2008 2:31:49 AM

jwilkerson

Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Hi all,

Any comments on Allied production (apologies if already mentioned)? As in it atill irks me sometimes seeing the Japanese outproduce the US (in particular) on planes. Will Allied production be increased?

Thanks

Aircraft rates will be "adjusted" ... definitely ... in some cases raised in some cases lowered. I think the Air Team are working on the numbers.

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Post #: 713

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/14/2008 3:37:53 AM

Flying Tiger

Posts: 496
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From: ummmm... i HATE that question!
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Another suggestion....

Could we add some Harpoon-esque 'zone' markings to the game. Let me explain... could we include some toggles on the map screen to turn on/off rings (VERY technical term!!) indicating total air search coverage, total air ASW coverage, CAP coverage, nav attack coverage, air search radar coverage, surface search radar coverage, etc..?? And ideally the rings would be color coded to show good coverage, fair coverage, poor coverage, etc.

Does that make sense? If not i can explain further.

cheers

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Post #: 714

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/14/2008 9:00:14 AM

Speedysteve

Posts: 15998
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From: Reading, England
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Thanks Joe

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Post #: 715

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/14/2008 4:54:00 PM

Dili

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Thank you jwilkerson and for that matter terminus, and i dont have problem with his sterse answer, i like that clear making me possible to invest in other projects since AE will be unworkable for what i want, no map no game. I am not intelectualy interested in Pacific War. Regards.

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Post #: 716

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/14/2008 8:51:06 PM

pad152

Posts: 2871
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AI Modules in the editor - there are AI modules in WITP, but they didn't allow you to mod the AI for a campaign. Will the new AI Modules allow this?

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Post #: 717

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/14/2008 9:00:36 PM

pad152

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Joined: 4/23/2000
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Thank you jwilkerson and for that matter terminus, and i dont have problem with his sterse answer, i like that clear making me possible to invest in other projects since AE will be unworkable for what i want, no map no game. I am not intelectualy interested in Pacific War. Regards.

Dili - hopefully the experience the AE team gains will be put to good use for future projects like War in the Med, North Atlantic 86, and WITP II!

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Post #: 718

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/15/2008 2:06:59 AM

jwilkerson

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Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

AI Modules in the editor - there are AI modules in WITP, but they didn't allow you to mod the AI for a campaign. Will the new AI Modules allow this?

Yes.

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Post #: 719

RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread - 4/15/2008 4:58:43 AM

Alikchi2

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I know this is probably a 'no', but will we be able to modify the effects of December 7th Surprise? For instance, be able to check a box in the editor on a unit determining whether it can be "surprised" or not?

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Post #: 720