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RE: List of possible AI improvments

 
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RE: List of possible AI improvments - 12/19/2007 12:41:39 AM   
DodgyDave

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 9/30/2002
Status: offline 		it dont even keep to the fastest route to a target, moving a corps from switzerland to venice, it keeps moving the corp into the tyrol mountains, so cost 2 movement points along with being forage 3, so i have to manually move it :)

(in reply to bresh)
Post #: 61
RE: List of possible AI improvments - 12/19/2007 12:58:31 AM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		Marshall is the AI/file open for modification in anyway? Or
any chance to se a script based AI with open files in the future?
(I know this is  a big change, but I have to ask…   )
 
And I love to have a chance at improving the AI…
 
With script base AI is the AI is engine broken down into different part that each
have specific tags to guide the settings for each country.
 
Ex
 
AI Headquarter
                      Economic AI
                      Diplomacy AI
                                            Evaluate AI
                                            Request AI
                      Land AI
                                            Supply AI
                                            Garrison AI
                                            Movement AI
                                            Combat AI
                      Naval AI
                                            Supply AI
                                            Movement AI
                                            Combat AI
 
French AI file for the Garrison AI could look
like this:
 
###################################
#  Garrison AI France
###################################
garrison = {
                      home_country                      = 5.0
                      overseas_multiplier               = 0.0
                      free country                          = 2.0
                      conquer country                   = 1.0
                      allied territory = 1.0
                      key_point_prio_mult            = 5.0
 
                      # PRIORITIES:
                      port with fleet                    = 10              
                      capital                                  = 40               # Our capital
                      allied_human_border            = 0                 # Ignored for allied human players
                      depot                                   =5
                      war_target                           = 50               # The next country targeted for attack by this AI
                     
                      opposing_alliance                 = 50               "normal enemies"
                      unstable_border                   = 2                 # Bordering countries at war with someone else get this
                      …
 
                      # Borders with specific countries
                      country_priorities = {
                                            HOL = -1
                                            PRU = 50
                                            SPA = -1
                                            AUS = 50
                                            ENG = -1
                                            …
}
area_priorities = {
                      44 = 100 # Lille
                      53 = 100 # Valenciennes
                      64 = 100 # Reims
                      72 = 100 # Metz
                      527 = 60 # Grenoble
                      366 = 60 # Nice
                      …
}
front = {
                      recklessness                         = 1 # 0-3
                      distrib_vs_ai                         = even
                      distrib_vs_human                 = even
                      base_attack_odds                = 1.2 # in corps
                      min_attack_odds                  = 1.1
                      max_attack_odds                 = 3.0
...

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 12/19/2007 1:02:25 AM >

(in reply to DodgyDave)
Post #: 62
RE: List of possible AI improvments - 12/19/2007 5:54:23 PM   
AresMars

 

Posts: 234
Joined: 12/13/2007
Status: offline
Pzgndr,

I think you are missing the point of my post.

a) I said MAXIMIZE the experience.....you could play the original game with UMPs (and the computer version with Ai's), but that is not as ENJOYABLE as having 7 active players. I feel that this is also true for the computer version. On this we may disagree but I would be suprised if you did.

IMHO, it takes 7 HUMAN players to have a real EIA game experience......either FtF or PBEM

b) the UMP rules where created for the orginal game because you could not always find 7 players to play. (A sad state of affairs but HARSH reality!) This computer version of the game greatly increases the chances of finding 7 players through PBEM and includes a replacement player pool to draw from when real life gets in the way of any of those players.

This is the strenght that the Internet brings to games of this sort....you can play anyone, from anywhere, all the time. WOOOT!

c) IMHO, an AI or UMP is not the best play experience possible or available to an EiA player. It has been said many times before....it is hard to NEGOTIATE with an AI or Computer....

d) _ I __ am hoping (Matrix has their own agenda) that BUG FIXES and the such are the intital focus to improve the play of 7 human Matrix Customers is all....

e) I never dismissed SOLO play -- I have used it ALOT to relearn how to play and rekindle my love of EiA after 12 years of absence....

f) AI improvements wil also benefit me, but my interest clearly is in PBEM games with other players.

I am clearly only stating my point of view here and did not expect people to point out "errors" in MY wishes....

BTW, UMP means _ Uncontrolled Major Powers _ for those that never played the boardgame....and was a way for les sthen 7 players to play the boardgame....

quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

This game is a re-creation of a boardgame that requires 7 people to maximize the experience -- the game was not developed for SOLO play and thus has a poor AI for that.


This is incorrect. The original board game may have provided the maximum experience for 7 people if available, but the UMP rules were specifically designed to allow less than 7 people to also have an enjoyable game experience. Yes?

The computer game replaces UMPs with AI, therefore anyone who played with UMPs before will be playing with AI now. Was the game developed "for" solo play? Not necessarily, but with functional AI and adjustable difficulty setting for each major power, solo against 6 AI opponents becomes a viable option now whereas it was not before. So it's unfair to dismiss this new option.

The quality of the AI is of course subject to debate. But read the forum comments; Marshall Ellis and Matrix Games acknowledge weaknesses with the initial AI and plan to make improvements. 'delatbable' provided a nice solo vs AI AAR which demonstrates that even with its weaknesses upon release, the AI did "reasonably well." Once the game is more or less finalized with bug fixes and other issues resolved, then the AI can be enhanced for better performance... for 1-6 AI players for any of the major powers.

quote:

If develloper time is going to be spent, I would prefer attention be spent on improving the play experience for 7 human players and removing game bugs then making SOLO play better.....


Well, fortunately that is not the plan Matrix has in mind.


(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 63
RE: List of possible AI improvments - 12/20/2007 12:57:05 AM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		I was reviewing the USAFA historical national objectives variant. Might there be a way to implement these ideas for historical AI performance? Might be nice to implement these as a regular game option too, since most of these just involve internal calculations of PP's.

(in reply to DodgyDave)
Post #: 64
RE: List of possible AI improvments - 12/20/2007 1:35:10 AM   
bresh

 

Posts: 936
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DodgyDave

it dont even keep to the fastest route to a target, moving a corps from switzerland to venice, it keeps moving the corp into the tyrol mountains, so cost 2 movement points along with being forage 3, so i have to manually move it :)


Yeah thought I noticed it, in a game some week ago, but wasnt sure when i posted the route thingy.

Regards
Bresh

(in reply to DodgyDave)
Post #: 65
RE: List of possible AI improvments - 12/20/2007 1:46:52 AM   
Tanan Fujiwara

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline 		Well AresMars you are probably right, this game has been designed more with pbem in mind, but since you have played the original boardgame you obviously know that even with 7 HUMAN players you won't get the "real" EiA game experience because of the many rule changes or rules that have been incorporated from EiH... so I strongly recommend cyberboard for pbem games.

For this reason I only bought the game hoping to play it SOLO agaisnt an at least competent AI, but I must say after a couple of games that I have lost interest because the AI is basically silly.

In any case, I do agree with you that EiA is a most enjoyable with 7 active human players, better than UMP's.

My best

(in reply to AresMars)
Post #: 66
RE: List of possible AI improvments - 12/20/2007 2:22:53 AM   
zaquex


Posts: 368
Joined: 11/30/2007
From: Vastervik, Sweden
Status: offline 		I think AI is very important for the creators/owners, PBM even though it has alot of followers on these boards are still a very small market. With at least a challenging AI this game this game will appeal to a much larger market and therefore have a much better potential to generate revenue. This will also be a good for the PBM players as an increased revenue also increases the creators ability and motivation to support and develop the game. This is a great game and it has a huge potential it will probably take a while before it can be concidered mature and I really would like to see this game continue to develop to reach its potential.

Ive played strategy games for over 20 years and I have not played a single PBM game, maybe this game will tempt me to try it. But me and my friends would much prefere to see this game played over TCP/IP. We still occationaly gather for LAN and boardgame weekends and as an old EiA group we would love to have the ability to play this game without the need to waste half a day of the weekend to set it up and take it down and I think the LAN market for strategy games at least in sweden where i come from is alot bigger than the PBM one.

Another thing is that with TCP/IP play, many of the somewhat constructed rules that where implemented to minimize the number of mails in a PBM game (politics, peace, defending players combat option etc) could be brought back to a form that is more true to the original boardgame wich would make the game a much better experience to play.

(in reply to Tanan Fujiwara)
Post #: 67
RE: List of possible AI improvments - 12/20/2007 5:08:33 AM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
I do believe the game supports hotseat play. That is a good substitute for TCP/IP.

(in reply to zaquex)
Post #: 68
RE: List of possible AI improvments - 12/20/2007 5:31:47 AM   
zaquex


Posts: 368
Joined: 11/30/2007
From: Vastervik, Sweden
Status: offline 		It does support hotseat but its not a better substitute for TCP/IP than for PBM.

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 69
RE: List of possible AI improvments - 12/20/2007 6:20:06 AM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
Sure it is. It certainly isn't useful in most PBEM situations, as the players are rarely in even the same time zone, let alone area. If you can do LAN play, you can do hotseat.

(in reply to zaquex)
Post #: 70
RE: List of possible AI improvments - 12/20/2007 2:50:14 PM   
zaquex


Posts: 368
Joined: 11/30/2007
From: Vastervik, Sweden
Status: offline 		LAN and IP isnt the same and also comparing hotseat with IP even IF you are in the same locality, is about as comparable as email and snail mail play.

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 71
RE: List of possible AI improvments - 12/20/2007 5:49:16 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
LAN = Local Area Network, thus it is local, i.e. on your home network. And yes, that is different than running an online internet game.

You seem to be conflating internet play with LAN play. TCP/IP allows for both. Hotseat can easily replace LAN play though, and could never replace or be compared to PBM (whether snail or electronic).

(in reply to zaquex)
Post #: 72
RE: List of possible AI improvments - 12/20/2007 10:04:37 PM   
dauphan129

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 12/12/2007
Status: offline 		OK. This is getting really long to read. Maybe we could split it into a few topics? This would also allow the topics to be discussions of how to play various countries and have one for general AI.

Example:
How to Improve Prussian AI / Strategy tips for Prussia
Solo vs. PBEM rants (which seem to take up the majority of this topic on how to improve AI.)

For the record I would like the game to be better at both. No AI will ever replace playing against Humans (machines don't generally get pissed and do silly things), but at the same time it is hard to sharpen your skills when all the AI does for you is make you race against the clock. Especially since there is plenty of time to win. I do hope TCP/IP is added down the road and I think those of you who are not going to play it anymore (unless the AI gets fixed) just because, should try it anyway. Take a chance. It's cheaper than therapy.

Just a thought.

< Message edited by dauphan129 -- 12/20/2007 10:26:21 PM >

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 73
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