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The Truck Unit Icon - 12/11/2007 11:59:56 PM   
Dr. Foo


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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Does the truck unit have any abilities? I have never used it, or seen it used, what is its main purpose.

Does it increase supply (like the supply icon) or enhance transport asset sharing?

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RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/12/2007 12:33:45 AM   
ColinWright

 

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RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/12/2007 1:15:21 AM   
Dr. Foo


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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Good to know, I did not want to bother creating a unit if its destruction did not adversely affect the formation. I want to limit the on map supply points and have a supply unit with each formation, therefore protecting it and attacking it will have value.

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RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/12/2007 3:40:15 AM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dr. Foo

Good to know, I did not want to bother creating a unit if its destruction did not adversely affect the formation. I want to limit the on map supply points and have a supply unit with each formation, therefore protecting it and attacking it will have value.


I don't think the supply unit's benefits will be confined to its own formation, though.

The supply units are useful -- but note that their effects are limited. For starters, they don't create supply. If you've got 0% supply -- well, twice zero is zero.


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RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/12/2007 3:58:30 AM   
Dr. Foo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright


I don't think the supply unit's benefits will be confined to its own formation, though.

The supply units are useful -- but note that their effects are limited. For starters, they don't create supply. If you've got 0% supply -- well, twice zero is zero.




Yes, I understand that the supply unit will benefit all units within its radius but it also will enhance supply of all adjacent units by one as long as it can trace a supply line to the supply source (I think, I need to look it up).

What I would like to create is a situation where the supply source is far away, therefore protecting and attacking the supply unit would be critical. FiTE does this well as the Axis supply points are located on the very edge of the map and the further units push into Russia the worse supply becomes. There are also a few supply units in that game that are withdrawn mid-game.


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RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/12/2007 4:35:12 AM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dr. Foo


quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright


I don't think the supply unit's benefits will be confined to its own formation, though.

The supply units are useful -- but note that their effects are limited. For starters, they don't create supply. If you've got 0% supply -- well, twice zero is zero.




Yes, I understand that the supply unit will benefit all units within its radius but it also will enhance supply of all adjacent units by one as long as it can trace a supply line to the supply source (I think, I need to look it up).

What I would like to create is a situation where the supply source is far away, therefore protecting and attacking the supply unit would be critical. FiTE does this well as the Axis supply points are located on the very edge of the map and the further units push into Russia the worse supply becomes. There are also a few supply units in that game that are withdrawn mid-game.



As I recall, supply units will increase supply to units within the supply radius of their locations by 25% of the base supply rate -- but not over the base supply rate.

So it sounds like you've got more or less the idea. They can have the effect of doubling the effective supply received if only 25% of the base supply can be received in the first place. Note that what supply radius you choose (the default is four) will also dramatically affect their impact.

Finally, and as an aside, you can't have a supply radius of zero. It's effectively always at least one.

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RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/12/2007 5:28:36 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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Status: offline 		Be aware of one other excentricity of supply units:

Only one will be "active" within a given radius area. The one chosen seems to be the one higher in the OOB list. All other supply units within a supply radius of an active supply unit are de-activated.

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RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/12/2007 10:46:41 PM   
desert


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Status: offline 		Really? I always thought the supply radii would overlap in that case.

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RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/13/2007 12:37:31 AM   
Dr. Foo


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Status: offline 		Good advice thank you.

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RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/13/2007 3:28:17 PM   
a white rabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Be aware of one other excentricity of supply units:

Only one will be "active" within a given radius area. The one chosen seems to be the one higher in the OOB list. All other supply units within a supply radius of an active supply unit are de-activated.


..is that also the case for HQ units ? Stacks of them do not seem to provide the massive supply boost one would expect..

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RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/13/2007 10:02:14 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Be aware of one other excentricity of supply units:

Only one will be "active" within a given radius area. The one chosen seems to be the one higher in the OOB list. All other supply units within a supply radius of an active supply unit are de-activated.


..is that also the case for HQ units ? Stacks of them do not seem to provide the massive supply boost one would expect..


You get a 50% boost. Why should that be multiplied? Doesn't matter how much M-16 ammo there is -- I can only carry so much away with me. If we double the size of the grocery store, can you buy twice as many groceries?


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RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/13/2007 11:15:47 PM   
FaneFlugt


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Status: offline 		But twice as many potential people could shop in the grocery store. So that would mean that in a relative shorter time period, more units could stock up on M-16 ammo.

That is, if time is a factor in the toaw supply system. (Which Im not very good at)

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RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/13/2007 11:37:15 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FaneFlugt.DK

But twice as many potential people could shop in the grocery store. So that would mean that in a relative shorter time period, more units could stock up on M-16 ammo.

That is, if time is a factor in the toaw supply system. (Which Im not very good at)


Yeah -- but anyway, it wouldn't work very well in practical terms. Yer horde of cooperating HQ would just gather behind your schwerpunkt and make all the attacking units into ubertroops who were getting 100% supply replenishment per turn and never got tired. It'd be both visually and historically totally unrealistic.


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RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/14/2007 12:07:14 AM   
FaneFlugt


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Status: offline 		I agree with you. There should be a cap.

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RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/14/2007 1:07:26 AM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FaneFlugt.DK

I agree with you. There should be a cap.


I think the 'supply units' that were introduced with ACOW were an attempt to permit the focussing of supply effort that people want.

Fairly obviously, though, the constraints and the mechanism there was dictated by programming considerations rather than any attempt at serious simulation. What's really needed is a complete replacement of the supply mechanism with a volume-based model that adequately simulates real life: just because the Germans can support six divisions in North Africa at 20% supply does not mean that they can support sixty at 20% supply.

Really, I don't see any reason why there couldn't be a model where the player has so many tons of supplies he can attempt to shove down the various rail and road lines -- each road and rail line having a maximum capacity.

Sort of like okay -- I'm a big contractor with fifty employees and six projects going on. One project has room for six workers, three for ten workers each, one for twenty, and one could take all fifty. How do I allocate the workers? No overwhelming reason why OPART couldn't have a phase where players either accept the program's default distribution of emphasis or override it.


< Message edited by ColinWright -- 12/14/2007 1:13:07 AM >

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RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/14/2007 4:04:08 AM   
FaneFlugt


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quote:

just because the Germans can support six divisions in North Africa at 20% supply does not mean that they can support sixty at 20% supply.


Is that really how the game system works? Thats odd. But then again TOAW is really not a Strategic game. Your not supposed to shuffle units and supplies around in different theaters of the war.

But some scenarios have strechted the system so much, that it has become illogical.

TOAW4 ?

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RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/14/2007 5:01:46 AM   
hueglin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FaneFlugt.DK

quote:

just because the Germans can support six divisions in North Africa at 20% supply does not mean that they can support sixty at 20% supply.


Is that really how the game system works? Thats odd. But then again TOAW is really not a Strategic game. Your not supposed to shuffle units and supplies around in different theaters of the war.

But some scenarios have strechted the system so much, that it has become illogical.

TOAW4 ?


That is a good point that I think is often overlooked in this game. It is an operational game at heart and that is what it models best - as soon as you try to model strategic or tactical warfare you begin to decrease its ability to accurately model the situation.

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RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/14/2007 6:55:48 AM   
Veers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hueglin


quote:

ORIGINAL: FaneFlugt.DK

quote:

just because the Germans can support six divisions in North Africa at 20% supply does not mean that they can support sixty at 20% supply.


Is that really how the game system works? Thats odd. But then again TOAW is really not a Strategic game. Your not supposed to shuffle units and supplies around in different theaters of the war.

But some scenarios have strechted the system so much, that it has become illogical.

TOAW4 ?


That is a good point that I think is often overlooked in this game. It is an operational game at heart and that is what it models best - as soon as you try to model strategic or tactical warfare you begin to decrease its ability to accurately model the situation.


All very true. I look forward to see which direction T4 goes.

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RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/14/2007 8:20:43 AM   
a white rabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright


quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Be aware of one other excentricity of supply units:

Only one will be "active" within a given radius area. The one chosen seems to be the one higher in the OOB list. All other supply units within a supply radius of an active supply unit are de-activated.


..is that also the case for HQ units ? Stacks of them do not seem to provide the massive supply boost one would expect..


You get a 50% boost. Why should that be multiplied? Doesn't matter how much M-16 ammo there is -- I can only carry so much away with me. If we double the size of the grocery store, can you buy twice as many groceries?



..i vaguely remember something about a chain of supply using HQs, back around toaw II, if supply units only supply as per above, it's reasonable to assume that HQs also increase supply the same, ie in order on the OOB..

..as to it being multiplied by each HQ, it would help to have it confirmed that it doesn't, or does, s'just nice to know, like command squads not doing anything in combat units..


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RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/14/2007 10:57:51 AM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Really, I don't see any reason why there couldn't be a model where the player has so many tons of supplies he can attempt to shove down the various rail and road lines -- each road and rail line having a maximum capacity.


But it's not just a matter of going down one of five roads. At every rail and road junction, you come to a new decision. Take Seelowe. How many different routes do you think there are from a hex in Birmingham to a hex in London? I'd say it's hundreds or even thousands when all permutations are considered- and then you have to work that out for all the other hexes too.

What I have been advocating on and off for some time is a new concept in TOAW, whereby the map can be divided up into regions. Most events and variables which are currently based on the whole force would be split up by region. So supply, shock, replacements, rail capacity, nuclear release etc. could all be broken down by region.

Once this system is in place, you could then have the game count up all the equipment in the region, apply some formula to it, and then calculate the supply level for the region for that turn.

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RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/14/2007 4:22:36 PM   
a white rabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Really, I don't see any reason why there couldn't be a model where the player has so many tons of supplies he can attempt to shove down the various rail and road lines -- each road and rail line having a maximum capacity.


But it's not just a matter of going down one of five roads. At every rail and road junction, you come to a new decision. Take Seelowe. How many different routes do you think there are from a hex in Birmingham to a hex in London? I'd say it's hundreds or even thousands when all permutations are considered- and then you have to work that out for all the other hexes too.

What I have been advocating on and off for some time is a new concept in TOAW, whereby the map can be divided up into regions. Most events and variables which are currently based on the whole force would be split up by region. So supply, shock, replacements, rail capacity, nuclear release etc. could all be broken down by region.

Once this system is in place, you could then have the game count up all the equipment in the region, apply some formula to it, and then calculate the supply level for the region for that turn.


..disagree, surely it's simple enough to enable the designer to fix a given supply capacity over a given rail route, you put in all the track from B'rum to London, then you allot a transport level to each line or accept a default level. If you don't want the work, you don't add all the secondary rail lines..



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RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/14/2007 5:41:17 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

..disagree, surely it's simple enough to enable the designer to fix a given supply capacity over a given rail route, you put in all the track from B'rum to London, then you allot a transport level to each line or accept a default level. If you don't want the work, you don't add all the secondary rail lines..


You're missing the point. Units aren't drawing supply in London- they're drawing supply just beyond it, at the end of all these secondary rail lines which you're suggesting we should abolish.

As to defining the supply capacity for every single railway, making it hard to use the tool will mean fewer designers use it.

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RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/14/2007 6:06:17 PM   
a white rabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

..disagree, surely it's simple enough to enable the designer to fix a given supply capacity over a given rail route, you put in all the track from B'rum to London, then you allot a transport level to each line or accept a default level. If you don't want the work, you don't add all the secondary rail lines..


You're missing the point. Units aren't drawing supply in London- they're drawing supply just beyond it, at the end of all these secondary rail lines which you're suggesting we should abolish.

As to defining the supply capacity for every single railway, making it hard to use the tool will mean fewer designers use it.



..sorry, i may have assumed knowledge you don't have..

..a rail line, and let's take 1940 UK as an example, has a maximum traffic it can handle, this is a function of the number of tracks it has, the signalling capacity on those track(s), the number of engines and their haulage capacity, the number of rolling stock and it's capacity, and in the case of the UK , the gauge of a given line and the ability of the operating company to provide staff for the same (GE, LWR GWR, Southern and so on). A locomotive takes time to build, so the haulage capacity is finite, a large engine , say a 2-4-0Stanier will not go round the same curves that an 0-4-0 tank can, but an 0-4-0 can't pull the same load, so any track has a fixed upper limit on it's capacity, dictated by the original track laying, which in turn is a combination of the initial investement, and, once again, the geography of the area in which it's built..

..simply put, main lines can take heavy traffic over prolonged periods, side lines can't. Where's the difficulty in working out which rail line carries what capacity ?

....

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RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/14/2007 6:27:32 PM   
golden delicious


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ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

..a rail line, and let's take 1940 UK as an example, has a maximum traffic it can handle, this is a function of the number of tracks it has, the signalling capacity on those track(s), the number of engines and their haulage capacity, the number of rolling stock and it's capacity,


Actually the locomotives and the rolling stock are completely independent of the line.

quote:

..simply put, main lines can take heavy traffic over prolonged periods, side lines can't. Where's the difficulty in working out which rail line carries what capacity ?


Because most scenarios take place in areas less well developed and less documented than mainland Britain in the 1940s. What was the capacity of such-and-such a road in the Ukraine in 1943? You might be able to find out. Now find it out for each of five hundred road hexes on the map.

An impossible task. You'll disagree, but you'll be wrong.

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RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/14/2007 7:27:56 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FaneFlugt.DK

quote:

just because the Germans can support six divisions in North Africa at 20% supply does not mean that they can support sixty at 20% supply.


Is that really how the game system works? Thats odd. But then again TOAW is really not a Strategic game. Your not supposed to shuffle units and supplies around in different theaters of the war.

But some scenarios have strechted the system so much, that it has become illogical.

TOAW4 ?


That's a valid point -- but the differential supply thing is hardly confined to North Africa. How many divisions could the Finno-Germans support up around Murmansk as opposed to in the vicinity of Leningrad? Why was it that the British effort in Norway was hamstrung by their failure to recover Trondheim? What was wrong with the fishing ports they had to use for supply instead?

The supply capacity of various ports and routes does vary -- and a situation that can comfortably support a brigade engaged in light skirmishing is not one that can handle a full corps engaged in heavy combat.


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RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/14/2007 7:31:07 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

..a rail line, and let's take 1940 UK as an example, has a maximum traffic it can handle, this is a function of the number of tracks it has, the signalling capacity on those track(s), the number of engines and their haulage capacity, the number of rolling stock and it's capacity,


Actually the locomotives and the rolling stock are completely independent of the line.

quote:

..simply put, main lines can take heavy traffic over prolonged periods, side lines can't. Where's the difficulty in working out which rail line carries what capacity ?


Because most scenarios take place in areas less well developed and less documented than mainland Britain in the 1940s. What was the capacity of such-and-such a road in the Ukraine in 1943? You might be able to find out. Now find it out for each of five hundred road hexes on the map.

An impossible task. You'll disagree, but you'll be wrong.


No -- but the same argument applies to the peculiarities of the terrain, the actual quality of individual battalions, etc.

When it comes to the 'carrying capacity' of particular routes, you can make a guess -- and that guess has a very good chance of being better than the totally unrealistic paradigm currently used to supply units.

We're in the happy position of having nowhere to go but up. It's not like we're talking about revising some part of the system that works pretty well as is.


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RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/15/2007 3:57:06 PM   
a white rabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

..a rail line, and let's take 1940 UK as an example, has a maximum traffic it can handle, this is a function of the number of tracks it has, the signalling capacity on those track(s), the number of engines and their haulage capacity, the number of rolling stock and it's capacity,


Actually the locomotives and the rolling stock are completely independent of the line.



..actually they're not, Russian 4'8 1/2" can't use Russian broad-gauge, huge Bayer-Garrats won't go round the bends in a Welsh valley, much American rolling stock wouldn't go under British bridges, or thru the tunnels, French passenger stock can't use British stations, wheel-rims are different thickness on many European engines so would get stuck in the British points, engines without water scoops can't use the water points on main lines, finding somewhere to park or turn round a Battleship Class, or a Duke, or any mainline motor unit is difficult once you get north of Glasgow, French engines freeze solid and pop exposed piping in a Russian winter, wood burners don't/can't use coal, coal burners don't/can't use wood, unless heavily converted most British motor units don't have sufficient water capacity to wander around North Africa...to give just a few examples, acually...

..actually, most rolling stock is used on rail lines designed for it and around it, not something that can be altered overnight...actually..


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Post #: 27
RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/15/2007 4:04:24 PM   
a white rabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

..a rail line, and let's take 1940 UK as an example, has a maximum traffic it can handle, this is a function of the number of tracks it has, the signalling capacity on those track(s), the number of engines and their haulage capacity, the number of rolling stock and it's capacity,


Actually the locomotives and the rolling stock are completely independent of the line.

quote:

..simply put, main lines can take heavy traffic over prolonged periods, side lines can't. Where's the difficulty in working out which rail line carries what capacity ?


Because most scenarios take place in areas less well developed and less documented than mainland Britain in the 1940s. What was the capacity of such-and-such a road in the Ukraine in 1943? You might be able to find out. Now find it out for each of five hundred road hexes on the map.

An impossible task. You'll disagree, but you'll be wrong.


No -- but the same argument applies to the peculiarities of the terrain, the actual quality of individual battalions, etc.

When it comes to the 'carrying capacity' of particular routes, you can make a guess -- and that guess has a very good chance of being better than the totally unrealistic paradigm currently used to supply units.

We're in the happy position of having nowhere to go but up. It's not like we're talking about revising some part of the system that works pretty well as is.



..given the amount of research most do for a scen, i reckon most "guesses" would be pretty accurate, the same would apply to unloading capacity for ports, i'm pretty sure of the unloading capacity for Kota Bharu in 1941 and the rail capacity out of there, tho still not spot on for the Thai ports further north, some nice person at Axis Forum will give me the answer, if not the guy running the Thaiww2 site will know...


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RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/18/2007 1:14:29 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

quote:

Actually the locomotives and the rolling stock are completely independent of the line.



..actually they're not, Russian 4'8 1/2" can't use Russian broad-gauge,


Sure. However, the trains on the Southampton-Waterloo line can quite happily hop over and run to Exeter instead.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 12/18/2007 1:15:35 PM >

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Post #: 29
RE: The Truck Unit Icon - 12/18/2007 1:35:27 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

When it comes to the 'carrying capacity' of particular routes, you can make a guess -- and that guess has a very good chance of being better than the totally unrealistic paradigm currently used to supply units.


Let's suppose we've got our road and rail net all mapped out with our arbitrary figures. Now it comes to working out the best way to get the maximum supply to every unit you have on the map by manipulation of the routes your supply is taking through the net.

Complicated- very complicated. So you end up having the computer do it for you: and replicating the abilities of the Air Staff Assistant won't be enough.

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"What did you read at university?"
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"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
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Post #: 30
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