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RE: Closure - 6/20/2008 3:10:15 AM   
Nemo121


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Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		1 BB, 3 BC, 3 CA, 5 CL, and 13 DD


Have you given any thought to SC TF composition IF you are going to go in? Personally I prefer 8-ship TFs which, given your force disposition could be disposed as follows:

1. 1 BB, 3 BC and 4 DD
2. 3 CA 1 CL and 4 DD
3. 4 CL and 5 DD

Why 8? Simple, with 8 ships you pretty much guarantee all eight will enter combat and with 4 heavy ships and 4 DDs per TF you have enough heavy ships to put a hurt on the enemy with enough DDs to fight off enemy DDs which try to get in close for torpedo shots. If you have, for example, 4 BBs and 10 DDs you run the risk of bringing 1 BB and 8 DDs to combat while the other 3 BBs randomly sit out the battle. The Allies can afford such inefficient profligacy but Japan cannot. Japan is all about getting things done in the most efficient manner possible.

SC TFs normally engage in order of their TF numbers so IF you want the BBs to bombard AND you are SURE there are no enemy BBs present then if your CA TF is, for example, TF 35, your CL TF is TF 40 and your BB TF is 46 then the CA TF will engage enemy surface units first, your CL TF will mop up the light ships which survive and your BB TF should be able to bombard without using up all its OPS points in surface combat.

Obviously though IF your recon is wrong such a strategy will lead to disaster as a few enemy BBs can pound your non-BB TFs to smithereens. So, probably safest to go in with the BBs first.

Definitely pay attention to TF numbering though as it is of great important in surface battles when you have multiple SC TFs in the same hex at the same time.

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 811
Interesting - 6/20/2008 3:46:44 AM   
John 3rd


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From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Damn...Nemo I did not know that EITHER!  If anything else can be said for this AAR is that my learning has been fantastic through the reader's commentary.

Since I haven't ordered the attack yet I will check recon again with the next turn before the order is given.  I could factor a compromise by sending the attack in with 2 STF:

1 BC, 3 CA, 2 CL, and 6 DD and then
1 BB, 2 BC, 3 CL, and 7 DD

This should provide enough punch if needed for dealing with any heavies.  With Yamato being the slowest of the ships, I can set the first TF to follow the other and that way they stay together for the attack.  To be safe I can register each TF with LR CAP for their protection if anything happens. 

I am hoping to get an evening turn from Dan but doubt it.  Got a feeling the you-know-what will hit the fan tomorrow!  We'll see...


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Post #: 812
October 13, 1943 - 6/20/2008 5:34:25 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Combat Report
October 13, 1943

THREE locations.  Three battles to be joined...


Expectations run high in the Kaigun over Operation Nakri.  It has taken eight long weeks for the Fleet to sortie!  nearly 150 warships in all are sailing into harm's way.  Is this the right move?  Is ANY move the right one...


1.  Vice-Admiral Nagumo looks out over the curled fist of Japan's mighty Kido Butai and prepares for battle with this message to the 80+ warships centered on his 1st Carrier Division:

Attention Fleet:
 
Tomorrow the might and power of the Imperial Fleet will once again be displayed to the American Navy.  They have no idea that we are here.  To the west about 800 miles is the American Fleet.  We will strike hard and fast to lure them further eastwards as our brothers in their powerful Battleships rush to attack Iwo Jima.
 
Trust in your officers and leaders.  Your faith SHALL be rewarded!
 
Banzai!
 
Vc-Adm Nagumo Chuichi


2.  Rr-Adm Tanaka critically examines his powerful armada of warships.  He has elected to divide the 25 warships into two Task Forces:

TF10  1 BC, 2 CA, 2 CL, 6 DD
TF 77  BB Yamato (his Flagship), 2 BC, 1 CA, 3 CL, 7 DD

Just this afternoon nearly 200 Japanese army and navy fighters shot down all 6 Liberators sent their way from Iwo Jima.  Having just conferred with the Air Commanders, Tanaka knows that that same protection shall be over his TF's tomorrow and the day after.  The power of 9 18", 24 14", and numerous 8" guns are about to be turned on the American base at Iwo Jima...


3.  In a far different corner of the Japanese Empire, over 200,000 Chinese, Indian, and British troops surge across the mighty river that separates their side from the Fortress of Moulmein.  Artillery, rifles, grenades, stone knives, and bearskins await them as they cross!  The Allies take frightful casualties.  By the end of the day about 2,000 Japanese are killed or wounded while the Allies suffer a frightful 14,000 casualties.  The river runs red with their blood and they don't even come close to penetrating ANY of Moulmein's fortifications...


Thus as the sun sets across the width of Japan's Empire three battles are being or are about to be fought.  Only time will tell the results...


< Message edited by John 3rd -- 6/20/2008 6:38:17 AM >

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Post #: 813
RE: October 13, 1943 - 6/20/2008 8:52:08 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Here is the tactical situation that Nagumo finds himself in...






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October 13, 1943 - 6/20/2008 9:03:50 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Here is the western half of the situation:






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RE: October 13, 1943 - 6/20/2008 10:07:47 AM   
castor troy


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Status: offline 		How many TFs are there at Iwo? In my game against Swift I´ve got the problem that he uses so many TFs at a base that even with 10 or so tries I was never able to get a bombardment because my bombardment TFs used up all their op points fighting against TFs of 2, 3 or 4 MSWs, barges or other crap.

I have just lost BB Yamato that way. In fact, I lost the best IJN BB to barges. In the first engagement a lucky DD put one torp into Yamato, then there were the follow on engagements against barges and Co and when the op points were used up of course there was (like every time before) no bombardment, enabling the enemy airforce to launch all aircraft, sinking Yamato. Even though IMO this is just an exploit this always works in the game. You screw up the attack routine of your bombers AND you guard your bases against bombardments without having to fear losses. If you only use barges, you don´t even take losses that show up as victory points.

I doubt that your opponent is deliberately using this tactic (mine does) but if there are enough TFs there won´t be a bombardment at all. Sending in more TFs of your own most often doesn´t help as they just don´t engage all. At least not in my experience. A pity the developers didn´t think about such a tactic, IMO BBs / CAs / CLs on bombardment mission should just ignore everything smaller than a DD as there´s no sense attacking barges to use up all your op points. At least they should only engage ships that attack them, but not using up all ops points for shooting up barges or merchants, when their mission is to attack the base.

So be aware...

I don´t like the nuke bombardments either but if your opponent guards his bases with the described tactic then this doesn´t mean he can´t do nukes on your bases. So either you then use the same sh*tty tactic or you get nuked while his bases are immune because of exploiting the game engine.


< Message edited by castor troy -- 6/20/2008 10:10:54 AM >

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RE: October 13, 1943 - 6/20/2008 5:18:19 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Hey Castor.

Dan doesn't use barges but he does exploit PT-Boats.  In my attacks at Tori Shima, my TF run into an average of 4 PT groups with 4-8 PT/TF.  I've lost 4 DD and 3 more nearly sunk.  There is at least 1 PT TF at Iwo Jima.  I don't think it is right but figure it can be addressed in House Rules with AE.

We'll find out today as what he is doing.




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Gaishu Isshoku! (One Touch on a an Armored Sleeve) - 6/20/2008 7:32:41 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Japanese Aerial Strike Force
October 14, 1943

Kido Butai Combat Log:

0530  Search planes launched from all heavy cruisers

0636  Enemy Dive Bomber spots Kido Butai

0645  CAP is raised to a total of 168 Zeke and 154 A6M3a

0658  Numerous American Task Forces Spotted

0712  Enemy Carrier Task Force Spotted (reported as 2 CV, 2 BB, and escorts)

0758  Inbound American Strike detected by Search Planes

0806-25  Strike Force launched from all carriers.  Total planes in attack wave:  98 Zero, 150 Dive Bomber, 126 Torpedo Bombers

0821  American Strike detected by radar

0828-0837  Entire American Strike is destroyed!  Nearly 100 American planes are shot down without Japanese AA having to open fire.  Japanese losses are a total of 6 Zero (2 M5/4 M3a)

0933  "Have American Carrier Force in Sight"

0942-47  Nearly 50 Hellcats attack the Japanese formation

0948  "All planes go in"

0948-1012  Strike Force attacks American Fleet

1015 Transmission from Strike Commander Fuchida:

Zephyr to Base.  Zephyr to Base.
 
Strike Force attacked and destroyed an American Carrier Task Force!  Have directly seen the following sinkings of one Essex-Class carrier believed to be the Intrepid, one Independance-Class Light Carrier, and one South Dakota-Class Battleship!  Heavy damage inflicted on two enemy Heavy Cruisers.  Am returning to base...
 
1135 Strike Force begins landing on Carriers.  Once tallied, total losses for attack are:  25 Zero (16 M5/9 M3a), 15 DB, and 13 TB.

1225  Transmission from Vc-Adm Nagumo to all Kido Butai Task Forces:

Immediately rearm all Strike Aircraft and prepare to attack undefended American forces.  All ships to proceed NE at normal speed.  Well done on morning Strikes and Defense of Fleet!



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Gaishu Isshoku! (One Touch on a an Armored Sleeve) - 6/20/2008 7:38:09 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		The Operation Nakryi is off to a GREAT start!






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RE: Gaishu Isshoku! (One Touch on a an Armored Sleeve) - 6/20/2008 7:57:18 PM   
Nemo121


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Status: offline 		Good, a nice cheap victory. 59 planes for a CV, a CVL and a modern BB. As to rocking, perhaps, but it doesn't mean that I can get a game Any CVEs or slow BBs there? Any idea what was on the transports you sank?

Back to the topic though... Do you have a read on the location of the USN CV TF at Iwo? Is it a Iwo or a little west or what? If you know then it should be possible to calculate their maximum speed run east toward you and position yourself at the optimum spot to hurt their strike groups whilst allowing your own strike groups to kill undefended enemy transports etc. If I read the screenshot properly you ran into a CV TF which is being trailed ( over the next 120 miles eastward ) by 2 non-CV TFs ( probably transports, perhaps surface combat vessels ).

After thinking about this for a while I would suggest the following:
I'd expect his military vessels to run for Midway while his transports make for Iwo. They are probably ALL better off continuing to make for Iwo while the USN CVs sprint to their aid but most people seem to want to save military vessels ( since once they are sunk they are gona forever ) whilst being willing to risk ground units since even if 5% survive you can usually rebuild the ground unit once it reaches its destination. If you still have the turn I would suggest splitting your CVs with most of them heading NE but at least 1/3rd heading East with a view to killing any enemy surface vessels which try to run that way. That'll give you the biggest footprint for potential strikes tomorrow at negligible risk.

The day after tomorrow you can recombine your CVs by bringing the CV group which hunted the merchants south a bit and running the 1/3rd which went east back westward to rendezvous. This should be utterly safe since the USN CVs will be concentrating on linking up with the surviving enemy merchant vessels and will give your pilots 1 day to recover fatigue while you decide whether or not to tangle with the USN CV TFs.

Remember that while this is an tactical victory it also presents you with the opportunity to shape the field in your favour so as to attain an operational victory with strategic possibilities.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 6/20/2008 9:57:51 PM >

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Post #: 820
Scratch one MORE Flattop! - 6/21/2008 12:01:20 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		October 15, 1943
Kido Butai
Flagship Akagi Bridge

Commander Fuchida vents his rage by slamming his fist onto the rails of Akagi's bridge.  "We could have done so much more Sir!" 

Vc-Adm Nagumo and Captain Genda listen intently to their greatest of flyers...

"There was nearly 100 American transports, freightors, and tankers below us this morning!  It was a target we could only dream of hitting Sir.  We had wiped out the American carrier aircover and it was all ours for the taking; however, our pilots saw one lone, small flattop escorted by a single destroyer and they attacked.  I tried to order them off to hit those fully loaded, slow moving merchants but my radio malfunctioned.  The ENTIRE morning Strike Force of 77 Zero, 68 Dive Bombers, and 58 Torpedo Bombers concentrated on this one target!  I couldn't believe it..." 

The Commander pauses to catch his breath for a moment and continues on.

"The smaller afternoon strikes did some damage and that is a good thing.  Our observers report at least 4 more enemy ships sunk with their cargo.  The escort carrier and her DD were easily dispatched as well as all those crated planes on her deck."  He raises his eyes to the dispassionate Nagumo and asks "could we stay on station another day Sir?  I have already spoken to all the Daitai Leaders---This mistake will not happen again."  Already knowing that reports of the American Fleet approaching at high speed makes Fuchida sure of the answer he is to hear. 

The Vc-Adm shakes his head no and simply says "we will retire for a day's steam north towards the Aleutians.  This will probably confuse the Americans and we can make a better informed decision tomorrow.  Meanwhile, please commend your pilots for the work of the last two days.  Also, make sure the machinists get as many planes repaired as possible.  They may still get used in this operation."

Fuchida salutes and dejectedly works his way to the hangar decks below.

Genda, who has remained quiet all this time, motions to the retiring pilot.  "He is very passionate and a born leader; however, even he knows that the Kido Butai is but one component of this plan.  We must now look to Adm Tanaka to add to this victory."

Nearly 2,000 miles to the SW steams the Iron Fist of the Imperial Fleet.  The mighty BB Yamato and her three Battlecruiser consorts steam at full speed for Iwo Jima.  Having already passed the halfway point, Adm Tanaka can only thank Divine Providence for no air attacks this day.  The aerial armada flying over his Fleet has deterred any American response. 

Tanaka knows that the American Fleet has rushed to save its companion ships and that the way is clear for him to attack the shipping around Iwo Jima as well as bombard the island.  Just yesterday a scout plane positively identified the Battleship North Carolina present at the island and the Admiral looks forward to testing the best the Americans have with the best of the Imperial Fleet.

He also knows that Adm Yamamoto has activated a contingency plan for the Nagato/Mutsu TF to leave Pagan as well as the Ise/Hyuga TF to depart Tokyo Bay all with plans of hitting Iwo Jimabut it is Tanaka's TF that must make the initial assault and clear the way for the older Battleships to lay waste to the Americans.

With a deep breath he prepares for battle this night... 

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RE: Scratch one MORE Flattop! - 6/21/2008 12:11:16 AM   
Nemo121


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Status: offline 		Hmm, so the CVs aren't going to hunt down the enemy transports and you are sending your BBs in without delay. Interesting.

Remember IF you do succeed in closing the enemy field you will need massed bomber strikes on the very next day in order to keep it closed. Be sure to have those bombers ready or everything will be for naught. Personally I think you are about to lose some CAs to little gain.


P.s. Strategy notwithstanding I love the switch in writing style. It very much adds to the tension although the lack of information from the CR is a tad frustrating.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 6/21/2008 12:12:56 AM >

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Post #: 822
RE: Scratch one MORE Flattop! - 6/21/2008 12:15:09 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Nemo,

Dan simply kept them on the same course but sprinted the American Carriers due east to a range of 8 hexes from my CVs.  As Fuchida stated there were very limited returns for the Japanese attacks this day.  Sinking the Casablanca with 48 aircraft is still useful though.

Raid bag to Date: 

Sunk--CV Intrepid, CVL Langley, CVE Casablanca, BB Alabama, 5 AK, and 330 planes
Damaged--CVE Corregidor, CA Salt Lake City (3 Torps), CA Portland (1 Bomb/1 Torp), and 1 DD

Japanese Aerial Losses:  22 A6M5, 13 A6M3a, 18 DB, and 16 TB.

Orders:
1.  Move 100 Betty to Marcus with 54 A6M3a to attack the American shipping abandoned by the American Heavies moving east at Flank speed.
2.  Form Bombardment TF with Nagato/Mutsu, 2 CL, and 8 DD to hit Iwo the day after Tanaka.
3.  Form Bombardment TF with Ise/Hyuga, 1 CL, 10 DD to hit Iwo in two days as well.
4.  KB moves towards Amchitka for a days steaming.  Still have enough fuel for 3-4 days...

I can recall the 2 Bombardment TF if I want based on oppostion and results from Tanaka's attack.
 

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 6/21/2008 12:16:59 AM >

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Post #: 823
RE: Scratch one MORE Flattop! - 6/21/2008 12:23:17 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Our postings crossed in the ether!

I do not want to engage the American CVs right now.  The goal of this operation was to disrupt the American movement and open Iwo Jima for attack.  This has been accomplished.  If I keep the KB where it is, Dan will hit it with 6-8 CV and several CVL.  I will lose ships that I don't want to lose yet.

When I pick the fight with the American Fleet it will be with BBs along to absorb American bombs and torps.  I will also have fresh aircrews as well as more Zekes, Judy, and Jill.  My plan of engagement there is what we had earlier discussed:  load up on all Fighters, decimate his incoming strikes, and then launch my attacks. 

I want those AK/AP/TK but will not endanger the Japanese Fleet to do so.

Besides, this battle isn't over yet.  I still retain the initiative to come back down from the north and hit the Americans again...

Let us see how the Battlewagons do!

It makes sense to me.  Thoughts/Responses???


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RE: Scratch one MORE Flattop! - 6/21/2008 12:35:50 AM   
EUBanana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
It makes sense to me. Thoughts/Responses???




Good battle.



Much to risk but what choice do you have? I think the whole yo-yo'ing thing is good, if it works you might make him paranoid in future, beyond any material damage you inflict (which so far seems to have been considerable).

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RE: Scratch one MORE Flattop! - 6/21/2008 1:29:45 AM   
Nemo121


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Status: offline 		The Soviets teach that the acme of operational art is putting together a series of acceptances and declinations of combat such that you achieve your overall strategic goal at the minimum cost and with the maximum efficiency ( and those latter two are often not the same thing ).

It'll be interesting to see how this goes. I think the results will be less decisive than is imagined and the losses will be higher and most assuredly my answer to the question " Much to risk but what choice do you have?" would be to say that you have the choice of declining combat and seeking to shape things for even more favourable conditions in the future.

E.g. If KB retreated south-west but kept out of range of the USN CV TFs it could meet up with the BB TFs while the enemy transport TFs were still nearing Iwo. Under those circumstances I could envisage the following plan:
1. KB moves close to Iwo with Bbs, CAs etc integrated into the CV TFs.
2. Once the initial USN strike is absorbed by the CAP dive-bombers and torpedo-bombers are flown onto the IJN CVs etc ready to strike on Day 2.
3. On NIGHT 1 the IJN SC TFs ( BBs, BCs and CAs) go into Iwo configured for SURFACE COMBAT with a view to forcing the US AKs and APs out of the Iwo hex and into open ocean.
4. The IJN SC TFs retire back to safety with the IJN CV TFs between them and Iwo by the morning of Day 2.
5. The IJN CV TFs launch strikes against the APs and AKs which are now in open waters unprotected by the CAPs of Iwo and the USN CVs ( which would have to retire northward to replenish their airgroups ).

The slaughter would be massive and operationally decisive. Best of all it could be repeated a couple more times to equally decisive results and would complicate all Allied replenishment efforts.

So, that's my answer to what else could be done.

(in reply to EUBanana)
Post #: 826
RE: Scratch one MORE Flattop! - 6/21/2008 1:43:01 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		I just completed the most recent turn.  Dan isn't choosing to fight and simply want to escort his Merchants west.  The KB--now starting to run low on fuel--will move back into the battlezone for a few more attacks and then head for Wake/Marcus and home.

Tanaka hit Iwo with decent results and my other 2 BB TF will hit it again tomorrow with Tanaka coming in  for a second round.  ALL BB will then retire to Saipan. 

The Kaigun will then reform, KB carrying fighters, and attack Iwo Jima with the American Fleet arriving as we have dicussed earlier in the AAR. 


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Mind Reader! - 6/21/2008 1:44:22 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Nemo--I hadn't a chance to read your most recent posting.  We read each other's minds!  Wow...

Is that kind of scary to anyone else reading this???



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Post #: 828
RE: Mind Reader! - 6/21/2008 2:46:10 AM   
Nemo121


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Status: offline 		Reasonable strategy is reasonable strategy.... Question: Could you post the CRs for the past few days? I'm very curious to see how things stacked up - an analytical mind never rests unfortunately. If you don't want to post them here I'd really appreciate if you could PM them. I'm particularly curious as to how things went around Iwo for the SC TFs.

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Post #: 829
RE: Mind Reader! - 6/21/2008 3:41:23 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		My wife has come home and the boys are STARVING!  At ages 4 and 2 this happens fairly easily.  Will do a comprehensive update and screenshots when this house heads for bed later tonight.


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Same Song, Second Verse - 6/21/2008 8:31:55 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Adm Tanaka's attack on Iwo Jima is carried off without too much of a hitch. His impressive Task Force fully expected to encounter enemy Battleships and Heavy Cruisers but instead encounters the much despised gnats of PT-Boats.

Two groups of 6 PT attack the Task Force and each group losses a PT. The cost is sad with the new experimental, high speed Destroyer Shimakaze taking 2 Torpedo and being sunk.

Thankfully there are no mines present as the big ships swing into their Bombardment Formation. For a period of 55 minutes the 18", 14", and 8" guns fire salvo after salvo at the pork chop shaped island. Results are OK but not great: 1162 Casualties, 8 Guns, 9 Vehicles, and 5 aircraft are destroyed. Minor damage is done to the AF and Port. Since Iwo Jima now (somehow) has a Port, the gunfire also manages to damage an impressive total of ships there: 1 AP, 11 AK, 1 AVD, 1 AD, 2 TK, and 1 AR.

In the early hours of the morning, Adm Tanaka is told that a second Bombardment will be needed. This is to be done in conjunction with two other Battleship TF:






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Eastern Area - 6/21/2008 8:40:07 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		This is the eastern portion of the Operation. You will note the KB in the north, Midway in the SE corner, and Marcus to the SW.






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RE: Eastern Area - 6/21/2008 8:45:48 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		The leading edge of the American reinforcement TF is 19 hexes from Iwo Jima.  The consistent speed is 3 so that should provide the Japanese with 6-7 days before they reach their base. 

The Fleet must be concentrated again for the next attack:
1.  All BB will be at Saipan in 2 days.  There will be 8 BB/BC waiting for the Kido Butai to arrive.
2.  All 6 CVE will be pulled back and their Fighter Daitai restocked.
3.  The Kido Butai will return in about 5 days.  They will refuel, upgrade, and change out their DB and TB for Fighters.

Figure on October 22nd-24th being the time of the 'Decisive Battle.'


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(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 833
Greetings - 6/26/2008 11:22:59 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		I have not had the option of even logging onto the Forum since Saturday!  I have been going through extreme Forum withdrawal and need to catch-up the AAR.  My sons were badly sick with a summer cold and they demanded all my attention as the stay-at-home Husband! 

Dan and I have played through October 30th.  There have been tons of action followed by a current lull.  I am sure that you guys have gotten Dan's view and I shall get mine added today. 
  

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(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 834
Operation Nakri Update October 16-November 9, 1943 - 6/30/2008 10:50:47 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Real life has inteferred with my AAR life.  It is my hope to catch-up the AAR today and get back up to speed.  This entry shall deal with the happenings in the Central Pacific to the current turn.  We last left off with the KB heading south from its successful engagement with an American carrier task force in an attempt to get back to Saipan, re-equip with an all-fighter loadout, and then engage the Americans before they reached Iwo Jima.

Unfortunately that didn't happen as planned.  Fuel became a chronic issue and forced my withdrawal home to take forever.  On the bright side though the slower pullback allowed another day of strikes on American shipping where my Sea Eagles managed to crush a Tanker TF of 7 TK!  Would have loved to have captured those TK and USED their fuel first!  Most of the KB reached Saipan on the 23rd and refueled on the 24th.  The fuel-starved CTF with Akagi/Kaga/Ryujo crawls into port on the 25th and refuels on the 26th. 

This delay allowed the Americans to reach Saipan, unload, and disband into the Port.  There are now 250,000+ troops and over 400 ships at Iwo Jima.  How this is possibly defies the imagination.  Simple answer is that it ISN'T possible whatsoever and there is nothing I can do about it.

Let me return to the bombardments of Iwo Jima that occurred on the night of October 16-18, 1943:

October 16th---Admiral Tanaka hits the base with Yamato and 3 BC.  I lose a DD to Dan's chief LOVE--PT-Boats (3 TF of 6 each).  The bombardment destroys a few aircraft, damages 17 ships within the impossible to have harbor, and inflicts a little over 1,100 Casualties.

October 17th---Twin Bombardments occur with the Nagato/Mutsu TF and the Ise/Hyuga TF.  Adm Tanaka SHOULD have come back for a repeat bombardment but chooses (for some reason) to wait a day.

1.  The Ise/Hyuga TF sinks 6 of 18 PTs but loses a DD and sees a Torp hit Ise.  The bombardment destroys a plane, damages 6 ships, and does 1,800 casualties.

2.  The Nagato/Mutsu TF attacks directly afterwards and sinks 5 of 13 PTs (anyone counting PT numbers here??!!) but loses TWO DD in the process.  This TF destroys 7 planes on the ground, damages 19 of the 400+ ships there, and causes 500 casualties.

October 18th---Since the American CVs are still 12 hexes away at this point and there are only 8-12 PT left after the first two nights, I elect to let Tanaka still go in to hit the island.  Imagine my surprise when the American Battle Fleet--which was disbanded within the impossible to have Port at Iwo Jima suddenly emerges from the black sanded shores and attacks! 

It is Yamato, 3 BC, 3 CA, 3 CL, and 11 DD versus 5 modern BB, 2 CA, 5 CL, and 11 DD.  To help, Tanaka displays his boldness in getting a surprise Long Lance attack during the first round of action!  Japanese TT slash into the American force and hits CA Pensacola (sinks), CL Perth, and CL St. Louis.  The second round sees each side lose a DD.  The 3rd round has BB Indiana take 3 18" shells and get heavily damaged (2 US DDs also heavy damage) in exchange the Japanese have CA Haguro and 2 DD heavily damaged.

As the sides split apart the GREAT AMERICAN SHIP-KILLERS--the PT-Boats arrow in and sink more then the American guns could...  A total of 10 PTs attack and sink 2 Japanese DDs, CL Kuma, and finish off CA Haguro.

October 19th---The following day has the Americans blasting through my CAP (thought they do lose 35 planes) to cripple BC Haruna.  A total of 3 1,000 lb bombs bring her to a sinking stage and I am forced to scuttle her that night.

Good news though is that BC Hiei and CA Aoba make it to port without too much more damage and will be sent home.

Operation Nakri
October 14-19, 1943
Totals

American Losses
Sunk---CV Intrepid, CVL Langley, CVE Casablanca, BB Alabama, CA Salt Lake City, CA Pensacola, 1 DD, 5 AK, 7 TK, 13 PT-Boats, 1 DE, and 1 LCT

Damaged---CVE Corrigedor, BB Indiana, CA Portland, CA Canberra, CL Perth, CL St. Louis, 6 DD, and about 45 disbanded ships at Iwo Jima.

Planes---From the CV Battle to the Iwo battles, Dan lost about 400 planes total.

Japanese Losses
Sunk---BC Haruna, CA Haguro, CL Kinu, CL Kuma, and 8 DD

Damaged---BB Ise (Operational with Sys--27), BC Hiei (cripple), CA Aoba (cripple), and 2 DD.

Planes---88 aircraft (53--35 from KB--Fighters, 18 DB, and 17 TB) 

Summary
The Operation went VERY well until the last surface battle at Iwo Jima.  The CV Raid was magnificent and I only wish I could have sunk more AK/AP/TK.  Still the sinking of those American warships at this late juncture of the war is pretty cool.  I miscalculated my fuel usage coming home and it cost me a potential engagement with the American Fleet. 

The Iwo Bombardments would have played out very well except for the American BB Fleet appearing by magic from the 'harbor' there.   The loss of 2 BC (1 sunk/1 crippled) hurts some but does not impact the KB for a Decisive Battle.

Notes:
1.  I am furious at the use Iwo has been put to.  I recon'd the base for a period of 10 days and that numbered fluctuated between 355-410 ships.  Does the game ALLOW you to place 400 ships in a Size-3, now 4, harbor?  Yes---but it is nuts and wrong.  How does 250,000+ troops live on an island the size of Iwo Jima?  I don't know but they are there nonetheless...

2.  PT-Boats!    I hate their effectiveness.  In keeping since Dec 7, 1941, the single largest contributor to sunken Japanese DDs is PT-Boats.  I have lost nearly 20 DD to those things...

Any future game I play will have House Rules that govern these topics.






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(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 835
RE: Operation Nakri Update October 16-November 9, 1943 - 6/30/2008 11:35:58 PM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		Well I think those unrealities cut both ways and sometimes advantage Japan and sometimes advantage the Allies. I think the lesson here was that splitting your fleet and sending it in separately resulted in great loss for very little gain and now, when you combine your fleet, your main blow will be weaker and more brittle than it should have been.

Still, its a learning experience.

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 836
RE: Operation Nakri Update October 16-November 9, 1943 - 6/30/2008 11:55:01 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Though I understand your point, I have to somewhat disagree.  I am not weaker in CVs whatsoever and I gain 2 heavy ships with great AA (Hyuga/Ise).  Add to that I deprived him of a new CV, CVL, CVE means he didn't gain in strength there at all.

Bottom line is that I cannot beat Dan in his position.  He won't pull out from under Iwo's protective shadow with 300-400 ships unless he feels he can make it no matter what.  Right now I settle for a Mexican Standoff with the Kaigun at Saipan and his fleet at Iwo Jima. 

When he does sail out from there, I will give battle and fight along the lines we have spoken about and will see what happens.


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Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
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(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 837
RE: Operation Nakri Update October 16-November 9, 1943 - 7/1/2008 12:41:21 AM   
n01487477


Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline 		PT's - as Michael will attest, I hate these things ... they are American Ninja's (not the bad movie kind), slippery as an eel, possess supernatural strength, reincarnate too quickly, seemingly dance on water, and use stealth technology 50 years before it's available.

OK a bit of an overstatement ... but every game I play as the Japanese, I wish I had made some house rules about their use. It shouldn't always be rock, paper, scissors ... but this is a game imbalance. Otherwise hordes of PT's can and would destroy the IJN.(Yes another overstatement, but do a John Lennon and "Imagine" if all the Americans could build were long legged PT's)

I also think another imbalance is Industry City Attacks, Industry shouldn't be as vulnerable as it is ...the damage modifier seems screwy to me ...

And yes, I agree about the number of troops at a Base, especially Island bases.

I think we will be waiting for WITP II to be satisfied ... (although I think I read about base/ship capacity being implemented in AE).

Damian




< Message edited by n01487477 -- 7/1/2008 12:55:57 AM >

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 838
RE: Operation Nakri Update October 16-November 9, 1943 - 7/1/2008 1:27:05 AM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		There is apparently an anchoring limititation for WITP AE. I believe there is also a stacking limit for atolls, but Iwo is not an atoll.

It is 21 km2 in size. If you smoothed out Mt Surabachi 250,000 soldiers would each get 84 m2 to themselves. Of course, a couple hundred aircraft, a couple of runways, ordinance, equipment, thousands of tons of fuel oil and av gas and a bunch of equipment might make things a bit snug.

There would never be enough fresh water. Prewar the island supported about 1000 permanent inhabitants farming sugarcane. I'm not sure how many desalinators it would take to keep 250,000 men from dropping dead of thirst.

There would indeed be no way for 500 ships to anchor at Iwo

(in reply to n01487477)
Post #: 839
RE: Operation Nakri Update October 16-November 9, 1943 - 7/1/2008 2:53:47 AM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		PT boats are a way to counter balance the Japanese ability to conduct "nuke" bombardment runs. Unless you are playing a mod which has increased the range of TB, a Japanese player can send in his ships with over 30 speed and get away without any TB being able to reach them the next day. Then, those Allied 500lb and occasional 1000lb GP bombs just scratch the paint of those CA/BB.

Then, there are some Japanese players (hint, hint) who like to set their Zeros at 100' naval attack.


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(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 840
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