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Things Not Addressed In The Patch - 12/23/2007 12:25:00 AM   
beserko


Posts: 164
Joined: 2/10/2005
From: The United States Of America
Status: offline 		I Read whats on the new patch multiple times. I hope I'm wrong and these issues are addressed.

1. Its still a click fest. Lets embrace the mouse.
2. Any next unit key?
3 Any undo key?
4. Why aren't action buttons you cannot do grayed out?
5. Can we make the editor a little easier?
6. Be able to use units in modified scenarios in random games (i.e. civil war , LOTR )

_____________________________

as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns; that is to say, there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns—there are things we do not know we don't know."
Post #: 1
RE: Things Not Addressed In The Patch - 12/23/2007 4:42:07 AM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline 		OMG someone said another matrixgame was a clickfest besides me...oh dear oh my my my...be careful beserko JD and others will be out to getcha for callin a Matrixgame a clickfest. ;)

(in reply to beserko)
Post #: 2
RE: Things Not Addressed In The Patch - 12/23/2007 5:11:39 AM   
beserko


Posts: 164
Joined: 2/10/2005
From: The United States Of America
Status: offline 		Ack did I say click fest. OMG its a my mouse finger is killing me click fest

_____________________________

as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns; that is to say, there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns—there are things we do not know we don't know."

(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 3
RE: Things Not Addressed In The Patch - 12/23/2007 11:06:44 AM   
Westheim

 

Posts: 570
Joined: 7/9/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: beserko
3 Any undo key?


Would there be an undo key in real war? "Sergeant?" - "We took both houses, but we lost Martinez and Bergman fell into the well!" - "Don't worry. I'll just click undo." That's the most unnecessary thing ever.

(in reply to beserko)
Post #: 4
RE: Things Not Addressed In The Patch - 12/23/2007 2:17:52 PM   
hazxan

 

Posts: 69
Joined: 11/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Westheim
Would there be an undo key in real war? "Sergeant?" - "We took both houses, but we lost Martinez and Bergman fell into the well!" - "Don't worry. I'll just click undo." That's the most unnecessary thing ever.


Yeah - and they should only implement an undo button if the AI can use it too!

Having scanned the list of fixes, I couldn't find any mention of AI turn performance improvement. It wouldn't need to be much faster, just being able to see the AI move as it happens, like in TOAW, AOR, CIV and every decent game every released would ease the tedium of staring at an empty screen for ages, then having to go through the AI turn.

As a developer myself I also suspect that it must be ripe for improvement as the first big performance gains are usually the easiest, it's the final couple of % that's near impossible. Even an option to reduce AI processing resulting in an easier AI would be acceptable to me.

(in reply to Westheim)
Post #: 5
RE: Things Not Addressed In The Patch - 12/23/2007 6:41:33 PM   
TPM

 

Posts: 349
Joined: 2/8/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Westheim


quote:

ORIGINAL: beserko
3 Any undo key?


Would there be an undo key in real war? "Sergeant?" - "We took both houses, but we lost Martinez and Bergman fell into the well!" - "Don't worry. I'll just click undo." That's the most unnecessary thing ever.


I agree...no need for an undo button.

(in reply to Westheim)
Post #: 6
RE: Things Not Addressed In The Patch - 12/23/2007 6:56:44 PM   
kevinkins


Posts: 2257
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		Perhaps the AI can calculate 1-2 rounds and then the playback history could start automatically with further rounds calculated in the background and displayed when ready.

Kevin

(in reply to TPM)
Post #: 7
RE: Things Not Addressed In The Patch - 12/24/2007 12:12:49 AM   
kucing

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 7/1/2006
Status: offline 		Players can only undo when there is nothing significant happened (e.g. he can't undo an attack or a move that uncovers the enemy). The undo only works if the player's move is not significant. This undo button will prevent many accidental clicking but it will not allow cheating by re-rolling attacks.

(in reply to kevinkins)
Post #: 8
RE: Things Not Addressed In The Patch - 12/24/2007 12:39:31 AM   
IRONCROM


Posts: 679
Joined: 8/19/2007
From: Las Vegas, Nevada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Westheim


quote:

ORIGINAL: beserko
3 Any undo key?


Would there be an undo key in real war? "Sergeant?" - "We took both houses, but we lost Martinez and Bergman fell into the well!" - "Don't worry. I'll just click undo." That's the most unnecessary thing ever.

When you put it that way, I think I would have to agree...
That's too funny bro.

(in reply to Westheim)
Post #: 9
RE: Things Not Addressed In The Patch - 12/24/2007 12:42:39 AM   
PeterLorre86

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 12/1/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: beserko



1. Its still a click fest. Lets embrace the mouse.



If you memorize some of the hotkeys it cuts down on the clicking.

(in reply to beserko)
Post #: 10
RE: Things Not Addressed In The Patch - 12/24/2007 1:44:22 AM   
DasTactic

 

Posts: 1083
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kucing

Players can only undo when there is nothing significant happened (e.g. he can't undo an attack or a move that uncovers the enemy). The undo only works if the player's move is not significant. This undo button will prevent many accidental clicking but it will not allow cheating by re-rolling attacks.


I agree. This is important. I get annoyed with simple things like placing a new unit only to find it appears somewhere other than I expect it to (and I don't have any PPs left). Or accidentally moving a unit when I didn't mean to. The undo should only be for these sort of mistakes and not to undo a battle or undo a move that exposes the enemy. TOAW handles this reasonably well.

(in reply to kucing)
Post #: 11
RE: Things Not Addressed In The Patch - 12/24/2007 1:49:45 AM   
SlowHand

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 11/5/2000
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline 		I use all the documented and undocumented Hot Keys, and they do save some clicking.

But, We Who Have Repetitive Motion Injuries (WWHRMI) REALLY could use at least a "Next Unit" Hot Key (and "Previous"). Even better, another one that would cycle through units with enough Action Points to Move (or fly or sail).

... and perhaps have the "Next/Previous Unit" keys (or some others) also work in the City Production Windows, to allow you to cycle through Cities.


(in reply to PeterLorre86)
Post #: 12
RE: Things Not Addressed In The Patch - 12/24/2007 2:11:34 AM   
jeffreysutro@jeffreysutro.com

 

Posts: 137
Joined: 2/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kucing

Players can only undo when there is nothing significant happened (e.g. he can't undo an attack or a move that uncovers the enemy). The undo only works if the player's move is not significant. This undo button will prevent many accidental clicking but it will not allow cheating by re-rolling attacks.


As you point out an "undo" which affects only moves (not combat) that do not reveal unseen units or terrain, would not allow for any sort of cheating. There could even be an option to disable it in e-mail games, if either player wished to do so. In games against the AI the undo might even reduce "cheating" (assuming that anything you do in solo play could actually be considered "cheating"), since the lack of an undo necessitates frequent saves, which increases the temptation to reload if you get a poor result.

As a not very good player I figure that I owe it to myself to live with my (frequent) bad decisions. How else can I learn? However, I don't feel any obligation to live with the results of unintentional mouse clicks, so I will sometimes reload in such cases. An "undo" would merely reduce the annnoyance and frustration of those circumstances. Then I would only need to reload when it became obvious that I'd lost, and wanted to got back to an earlier turn in order to figure out what I did wrong and how to correct it.

It could, of course, be argued that those mistaken mouse clicks represent the blunders and misinterpretations of orders that often occur in war, for example Napoleon's loss at Waterloo when Grouchy misunderstood Napoleon's orders and failed to bring his corps to Napoleon's aid. I've played games like Crown of Glory where there's a chance that for a unit to move contrary to orders, and such a feature can add a lot to the game. If that's what the designer intends though, I think it's better to include it explicitly as a feature of the game.

In any case it appears that Vic, the designer of this game, does not care to include an "undo", so I guess I'll just have to live with his decision and enjoy this excellent game the way he designed it.

< Message edited by jeffreys -- 12/24/2007 9:04:41 AM >

_____________________________

All My Best,

Jeff Sutro

(in reply to kucing)
Post #: 13
RE: Things Not Addressed In The Patch - 12/24/2007 2:54:55 AM   
BlackSunshine


Posts: 366
Joined: 11/22/2002
Status: offline 		Great patch list, but I would still like to see:


-Either a next Unit button or preferably a next HQ button.
- Shaded range for aircraft
- Ability to zoom out map. Default map is too close, strategic map is too far.
-ability to name and change colors for random games without going into the editor. This lets you peak at the map.
- More detailed combat reports and/or animations.
Post #: 14
RE: Things Not Addressed In The Patch - 12/24/2007 10:42:35 AM   
Westheim

 

Posts: 570
Joined: 7/9/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kucing

Players can only undo when there is nothing significant happened (e.g. he can't undo an attack or a move that uncovers the enemy). The undo only works if the player's move is not significant. This undo button will prevent many accidental clicking but it will not allow cheating by re-rolling attacks.


This would be very similar to the undo button in People's Tactics. Hah, those were the days ...

Although, you still have to think about it ...

Major (receiving a phone call from HQ): "Yes, General. Company D is on their way to the bridge, and Company E is having lunch." - "Yes, General, to the bridge." - "20 minutes ago, why?"
Bloody young Sergeant: "Um, Major. Isn't the bridge ... over there?"

(in reply to kucing)
Post #: 15
RE: Things Not Addressed In The Patch - 12/24/2007 3:50:39 PM   
kucing

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 7/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Westheim
This would be very similar to the undo button in People's Tactics. Hah, those were the days ...

Although, you still have to think about it ...

Major (receiving a phone call from HQ): "Yes, General. Company D is on their way to the bridge, and Company E is having lunch." - "Yes, General, to the bridge." - "20 minutes ago, why?"
Bloody young Sergeant: "Um, Major. Isn't the bridge ... over there?"

Not really sure what your point is but in case you are still missing it: Advanced Tactics is a GAME, it is not real life. It is not even close to a real life due to the amount of abstraction. Undoing a move is fine in a game as long as the move is inconsequential. It might not happen in the real life but it is irrelevant because we are playing game and not being a general!

Anything that can help the user playing the game should be seen in a positive light.

(in reply to Westheim)
Post #: 16
RE: Things Not Addressed In The Patch - 12/24/2007 5:19:23 PM   
beserko


Posts: 164
Joined: 2/10/2005
From: The United States Of America
Status: offline 		I'm surprised that the undo key got the most press.My biggest wish was number 4. Why aren't action buttons you cannot do grayed out? That counts to most of my mouse fatigue. Followed by a next unit hot key. BTW I do use the hot keys .  Guess my 53 year old index finger isn't up to it. 

_____________________________

as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns; that is to say, there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns—there are things we do not know we don't know."

(in reply to kucing)
Post #: 17
RE: Things Not Addressed In The Patch - 12/24/2007 8:09:00 PM   
jeffreysutro@jeffreysutro.com

 

Posts: 137
Joined: 2/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Westheim


Major (receiving a phone call from HQ): "Yes, General. Company D is on their way to the bridge, and Company E is having lunch." - "Yes, General, to the bridge." - "20 minutes ago, why?"
Bloody young Sergeant: "Um, Major. Isn't the bridge ... over there?"


Westheim:

Thank you for the chuckle

I actually do think that a random "unit misunderstands orders and consequently goes off and does something does something weird" feature can be interesting and fun, though I suspect that it might not work well in this particular game. If such a feature is to be included however, I feel that it should be explict and not just the (presumably) unintended consequence of the lack of an undo button.

< Message edited by jeffreys -- 12/24/2007 8:11:30 PM >

_____________________________

All My Best,

Jeff Sutro

(in reply to Westheim)
Post #: 18
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