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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/19/2008 12:15:14 AM

Andy Mac

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Thats the US usage most other nations were a lot lower (although had other complexities) - Indian army was a fraction of that supply level but required a lot of different ration types.

I would need to recheck my sources but supply for an Indian Div was about c 60 tons a day although that increased dramatically after re mechanisation.

And was

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/19/2008 12:45:51 AM

treespider

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Thats the US usage most other nations were a lot lower (although had other complexities) - Indian army was a fraction of that supply level but required a lot of different ration types.

I would need to recheck my sources but supply for an Indian Div was about c 60 tons a day although that increased dramatically after re mechanisation.

And was

This is very true!!! TM-E 30-480 estimated Japanese Maintenance Supply requirements as 10-30lbs per man per day of all types of supply (food, clothing, POL, construction material, ammunition etc)...US Army requirements were 67 lbs per man per day.

< Message edited by treespider -- 1/19/2008 1:12:03 AM >

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/19/2008 1:39:44 AM

spence

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The numbers are a bit hard to rationalize though I do not doubt their validity. In part, I imagine that it relates to the fact that the US Army expected its troops to be fighting thousands of miles from 'home' and part of the tons/man/day figure actually incorporates estimated tonnage to simply get the tons/man/day to the man on the day.

In contrast it is my understanding that the IJA official doctrine was to subsist the troops on 'local supply'. It worked well enough in China and allowed the Japanese to develop a supply chain organization devoted to providing mostly those items which the local economy did not or could not supply (and at the Battle of Khalkin Gol etc even those amounts were found to be insufficient for modern warfare needs). As a result the IJA supply organization was not prepared when it had to provide subsistence for the troops thousands of miles from home in locations which possessed no local economy on which to subsist the troops. Faced with requirements to provide (however many) pounds of ammo, POL, etc AND FOOD with an organization capablility to provide that many pounds of just ammo, POL, and etc it was forced to substitute food for ammo, POL and etc and ended up providing insufficient amounts of all of the above.

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/19/2008 2:08:14 AM

herwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

Organising a unit meant that the unit had to be sustained, even if it was in garrison. It took 40 tons of supply per day to feed a division. Replacements would be needed for equipment, men and horses. Pilots had to be kept sharp, which means aircraft fueled/repaired/replaced. Ships had to be refitted/resupplied/refueled. Japan went to war because the peacetime costs of the army and navy were unsupportable. Use it or lose it.

Where are you getting the 40T figure?

Dunnighan and Nofi. 60T is probably better.

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/19/2008 2:26:03 AM

treespider

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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

The numbers are a bit hard to rationalize ....

"Maintenance Supply" is the total of all supplies divided by man per day or month. When I refer to all supplies - I refer to typewriters, concrete, grease, aviation fuel, widgets, clipboards, forms, pencils, ink, radios, kitchen sinks, toilette paper, gasoline, food, medical supplies blah blah blah....not just the supply needed to subsist or fight.

< Message edited by treespider -- 1/19/2008 2:27:10 AM >

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/19/2008 2:35:14 AM

spence

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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

The numbers are a bit hard to rationalize

wrong word...visualize is what I meant...knew what you meant

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/19/2008 3:34:43 AM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

I imagine some of that is packaging...oh and I had a chance to check it was .244 tons...in Europe it was higher - .261 tons.

Does this figure include water?

And what's POL stand for?

< Message edited by witpqs -- 1/19/2008 3:39:32 AM >

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/19/2008 4:16:38 AM

rjopel

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Water was usually able to be purified on site, especially at a fixed site. It would be shipped in with the assault forces.

POL = Petroleum, Oil, Lubricants

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/19/2008 4:20:03 AM

jwilkerson

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thanks rjopel ... you're JIT !!

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/19/2008 4:22:57 AM

witpqs

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Now you're just trying to get me to post again, but I already know JIT = Just In Time.

Doh!

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/19/2008 5:02:00 AM

Knavey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

More rough calculations....that 16 lbs of rations per man per day...I always thought the Navy had the good chow...geezum

It was pretty much 5 meals a day on a CVN when I was in...breakfast, lunch, dinner, midrats and a chili bar that had hotdogs and, yes, you guessed it, chili made from whatever meat that they had served 2-3 days before.

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/19/2008 6:31:46 AM

timtom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
I know we have gotten a wee OT, but speaking of unit removals/withdrawls...are...Air Groups open to withdrawl?

Yes.

< Message edited by timtom -- 1/19/2008 6:32:47 AM >

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/19/2008 6:54:47 AM

Jim D Burns

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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider
I refer to typewriters, concrete, grease, aviation fuel, widgets, clipboards, forms, pencils, ink, radios, kitchen sinks, toilette paper, gasoline, food, medical supplies blah blah blah....not just the supply needed to subsist or fight.

Right, but the game burns POL as fuel (supply is burned for aircraft fuel) and construction supplies are burned when building bases and forts, so it is not appropriate to incorporate those items into daily consumption needs. Food and ammo would be what combat units use on a daily basis, and ammo only really gets used during combat.

Since units supply requirements double when in combat, I�d say food is the main concern for daily consumption with a premium of about 20%-40% added for other non-perishable requirements added to that total.

Jim

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 1/19/2008 6:56:02 AM >

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/19/2008 10:45:46 AM

herwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

The numbers are a bit hard to rationalize ....

"Maintenance Supply" is the total of all supplies divided by man per day or month. When I refer to all supplies - I refer to typewriters, concrete, grease, aviation fuel, widgets, clipboards, forms, pencils, ink, radios, kitchen sinks, toilette paper, gasoline, food, medical supplies blah blah blah....not just the supply needed to subsist or fight.

That's mostly food and fodder, with a little POL. A 25 t tank (50 tons of raw steel) could last for years in storage. If you drove it, a year or so. If you used it in quiet operations, perhaps 4 months. A truck (5 tons) was good for 12 months of quiet operations; an artillery piece (6 tons) for three years. You only use ammo if you shoot it off; fuel if you move (or shift supplies). Figure a truck cost 1 lb of POL per mile moved; a tank 6 times that much. A ton of ammo took 70 tons of coal to make.

An aircraft cost 300 lb of fuel plus the ammo per mission.

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/19/2008 2:30:58 PM

Mike Scholl

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For comparison, while the IJN used less of almost all these things, they did use horses. And horses eat a lot of poundage whether they're being used or not.

< Message edited by Mike Scholl -- 1/19/2008 2:31:53 PM >

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/19/2008 2:34:42 PM

witpqs

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They also taste better than jeeps.

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/19/2008 4:09:32 PM

spence

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quote:

For comparison, while the IJN used less of almost all these things, they did use horses. And horses eat a lot of poundage whether they're being used or not.

I remember that one of the main reasons for the motorization of the British Army after the First World War was that it was discovered that during that war the Army had shipped more tons of horse fodder into France than tons of ammunition. The same logic applied the US Army disbanding its 1st Cavalry (real cavalry) Division. I guess it kept the name but not the horses.

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/19/2008 4:33:16 PM

Mike Scholl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

They also taste better than jeeps.

H-m-m-m. The "eadibility factor" probably was a consideration in an army as poorly supplied as the IJA.

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/19/2008 4:54:14 PM

witpqs

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In the Grand Armies withdrawal from Moscow, it was so bitterly cold (it was the Little Ice Age, after all) that Napoleon's starving soldiers walking beside horses were able to tear of strips of frozen flesh to eat without the horses noticing. The cold froze the wound and stopped the bleeding at once.

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/19/2008 5:15:46 PM

treespider

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider
I refer to typewriters, concrete, grease, aviation fuel, widgets, clipboards, forms, pencils, ink, radios, kitchen sinks, toilette paper, gasoline, food, medical supplies blah blah blah....not just the supply needed to subsist or fight.

Right, but the game burns POL as fuel (supply is burned for aircraft fuel) and construction supplies are burned when building bases and forts, so it is not appropriate to incorporate those items into daily consumption needs. Food and ammo would be what combat units use on a daily basis, and ammo only really gets used during combat.

Since units supply requirements double when in combat, I�d say food is the main concern for daily consumption with a premium of about 20%-40% added for other non-perishable requirements added to that total.

Jim

Not exactly - in game - supply points represent POL for everything except ship fuel which is represented as fuel points.

I have a fairly good breakdown of supply requirements by Classification.

< Message edited by treespider -- 1/19/2008 5:17:20 PM >

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/19/2008 5:16:35 PM

treespider

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Something you guys need to consider - when those combat units are in the rear areas...you have all kinds of supply expenditures. There are items you would not consider as necessarily essential but they existed - things like tents, storage facilities, laundering, paperwork for requisitions, etc etc etc...and all of those supplies in the Pacific theater needed to be shipped....and they took up space on those ships.

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/20/2008 1:14:15 AM

herwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

Something you guys need to consider - when those combat units are in the rear areas...you have all kinds of supply expenditures. There are items you would not consider as necessarily essential but they existed - things like tents, storage facilities, laundering, paperwork for requisitions, etc etc etc...and all of those supplies in the Pacific theater needed to be shipped....and they took up space on those ships.

Most of that gets issued when the unit is organised and lasts several years.

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/20/2008 2:03:46 AM

treespider

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quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

Something you guys need to consider - when those combat units are in the rear areas...you have all kinds of supply expenditures. There are items you would not consider as necessarily essential but they existed - things like tents, storage facilities, laundering, paperwork for requisitions, etc etc etc...and all of those supplies in the Pacific theater needed to be shipped....and they took up space on those ships.

Most of that gets issued when the unit is organised and lasts several years.

I beg to differ...as an example

from Quartermaster Corps: Operations in the war against Japan,

Page 201

quote:

...local scarcities of "expendable" items, that is items consumed in use, such as napkins, tooth paste, and insecticides, were often particularly severe. Of sixty five expendable items requisitioned from Oro bay base by the Fifth Air force in November 1943, only thirteen were on hand in the necessary quantities. Thirty-one were not obtainable at all and twenty-one only in quantities less than required. To replenish exhausted supplies, stop gap shipments of the most urgently needed stores were made by air from Port Moresby, the sole base in new guinea with adequate stocks of the scarce items. Among the articles forwarded were insect repellants, toilet paper, brooms, scrub brushes and spoons.

Page 204,

quote:

Tentage and Tarpaulins

Several factors combined to make tentage chronically scarce. In addition to the sizable inroads made on base stocks by issues of tents to organizations coming from the United States without those supposed to accompany them, tents lost through wear and tear of combat operations had to be replaced. Whole divisions sometimes had to be re-equipped. This need arose after the 1st Marine Division arrived in Australia, fresh from the savage fighting on Guadacanal, and after the 32d Division lost the bulk of its tentage during operations in New Guinea.

Page 206

quote:

Footwear and leather goods in general were subject to fairly rapid deterioration, chiefly because of fats and oils employed in tanning leather.

All of that stuff needed to be shipped and took up shipping space.

< Message edited by treespider -- 1/20/2008 2:05:27 AM >

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/20/2008 3:51:05 AM

Jim D Burns

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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider
All of that stuff needed to be shipped and took up shipping space.

You�re going way overboard here. Sure these items were shipped and took up shipping, but they were not needed for a unit�s survival and should therefore not be included in daily requirements. Instead the way to handle these kinds of *plush* items would be to give units a bonus to their disabled equipment recovery rolls and morale recovery/sustainment rolls when needed supplies are exceeded by a certain percentage of on hand supplies.

So if a unit needs 1000 supplies a month to sustain itself and it has 1500 supplies available (and no other unit needs the extra 500) it gets a bonus to its rolls.

Units begin to attrition away and die when short required supplies, so including toilet paper and bug repellant as required supply is not logical. These items enhanced a unit�s comfort level, but the lack of these items didn�t cause units to wither away and die.

Jim

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/20/2008 4:07:58 AM

treespider

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider
All of that stuff needed to be shipped and took up shipping space.

You�re going way overboard here. Sure these items were shipped and took up shipping, but they were not needed for a unit�s survival and should therefore not be included in daily requirements. Instead the way to handle these kinds of *plush* items would be to give units a bonus to their disabled equipment recovery rolls and morale recovery/sustainment rolls when needed supplies are exceeded by a certain percentage of on hand supplies.

So if a unit needs 1000 supplies a month to sustain itself and it has 1500 supplies available (and no other unit needs the extra 500) it gets a bonus to its rolls.

Units begin to attrition away and die when short required supplies, so including toilet paper and bug repellant as required supply is not logical. These items enhanced a unit�s comfort level, but the lack of these items didn�t cause units to wither away and die.

Jim

But what you are forgetting Jim is that all of this stuff (whether it is essential for survival or not) needs shipping... Shipping means ships....ships mean targets to sink...sunk ships means a need for more ships....more ships means a drain on industry to build them...more ships moving means more fuel consumption...more fuel consumption means less fuel for Battleships...fuel consumption means less fuel for Invasion convoys....etc etc etc

< Message edited by treespider -- 1/20/2008 4:32:51 AM >

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/20/2008 5:16:39 AM

Jim D Burns

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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider
But what you are forgetting Jim is that all of this stuff (whether it is essential for survival or not) needs shipping... Shipping means ships....ships mean targets to sink...sunk ships means a need for more ships....more ships means a drain on industry to build them...more ships moving means more fuel consumption...more fuel consumption means less fuel for Battleships...fuel consumption means less fuel for Invasion convoys....etc etc etc

Japan�s civilian economy demanded and used the majority of Japan�s available shipping. Making the land army try and utilize enough supply to replicate that extra demand is like sticking chewing gum in the hole of a car�s flat tire, it just isn�t going to work.

Either reduce the amount of Japanese AK�s available for use in game to simulate the needs of the civilian economy, or create a civilian economy that demands the majority of the ships be used in non-war fighting duties. If you can add a new *light* industry, why can�t you create a new *food* resource? Then require every industry point to use 4 food before it can produce anything and walla problem solved. Japan now needs 5 times as much shipping to bring home food and resources to get their industry going and they get no more supply produced by that industry than they did before.

In the past they reduced the carrying capacity of each ship to try and get it to work right. That certainly didn�t work, and I guarantee raising the supply demands of units isn�t going to either. Units daily supply requirements are too critical to their survival to try and force them to have typewriters and other non-essential stuff as their daily intake.

As I said giving units with a surplus of supply a bonus would be the way to handle that, not penalizing them with disablements and death because the left their typewriters back at headquarters.

Jim

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 1/20/2008 5:18:18 AM >

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/20/2008 5:38:02 AM

treespider

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider
But what you are forgetting Jim is that all of this stuff (whether it is essential for survival or not) needs shipping... Shipping means ships....ships mean targets to sink...sunk ships means a need for more ships....more ships means a drain on industry to build them...more ships moving means more fuel consumption...more fuel consumption means less fuel for Battleships...fuel consumption means less fuel for Invasion convoys....etc etc etc

Japan�s civilian economy demanded and used the majority of Japan�s available shipping.

Per the United States Strategic Bombing Survey report #54 page 59

After the start of the War the majority of the cargo shipping was utilized by the military.

quote:

Pearl Harbor to Guadacanal - As described elsewhere one of the most important features of the japanese preparations for war was a very intensive requisitioning of ships by the Army and Navy. This activity began in earnest in July 1941and in the 5 months preceding pearl Harbor 2 1/2 million ton of civilian shipping, thecream of the merchant marine, were taken by the Army and navy. Japan entered the war with her merchant fleet distributed approximately as follows: Army 2,163,000 tons , Navy 1,899,000 tons , civilian 1,934,000 tons....It was therefore expected and promised that the bulk of the 2 1/2 million tons taken by the military in the latter part of 1941 would be transferred to civilian control immediately after the completion of the initial plan for conquest....At what point in the war the Japanese were awakened to reality is hard to estimate, but it was plain early in 1942 that the return of any substantial portion of the 2 1/2 million tons was out of the question.

quote:

Making the land army try and utilize enough supply to replicate that extra demand is like sticking chewing gum in the hole of a car�s flat tire, it just isn�t going to work.

I'm not saying the land units wneed to replicate the civilian economy....I'm saying the military routinely used shipping to move non-essential supplies. That process burned fuel and used ships all of which affects the economy as a whole.

quote:

Either reduce the amount of Japanese AK�s available for use in game to simulate the needs of the civilian economy,

which would place even less pressure on the fuel supply

quote:

or create a civilian economy that demands the majority of the ships be used in non-war fighting duties. If you can add a new *light* industry, why can�t you create a new *food* resource? Then require every industry point to use 4 food before it can produce anything and walla problem solved. Japan now needs 5 times as much shipping to bring home food and resources to get their industry going and they get no more supply produced by that industry than they did before.

Not a bad idea...however Food imports only constitued 30% of the metric tonnage imported by the Japanese.

quote:

In the past they reduced the carrying capacity of each ship to try and get it to work right. That certainly didn�t work, and I guarantee raising the supply demands of units isn�t going to either. Units daily supply requirements are too critical to their survival to try and force them to have typewriters and other non-essential stuff as their daily intake.

there are other solutions...

quote:

As I said giving units with a surplus of supply a bonus would be the way to handle that, not penalizing them with disablements and death because the left their typewriters back at headquarters.

Jim

< Message edited by treespider -- 1/20/2008 5:52:57 AM >

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/20/2008 7:43:06 AM

tsimmonds

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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

Either reduce the amount of Japanese AK�s available for use in game to simulate the needs of the civilian economy,

which would place even less pressure on the fuel supply

quote:

or create a civilian economy that demands the majority of the ships be used in non-war fighting duties. If you can add a new *light* industry, why can�t you create a new *food* resource? Then require every industry point to use 4 food before it can produce anything and walla problem solved. Japan now needs 5 times as much shipping to bring home food and resources to get their industry going and they get no more supply produced by that industry than they did before.

Not a bad idea...however Food imports only constitued 30% of the metric tonnage imported by the Japanese.

there are other solutions...

Guys, please don't give IJ even more dirt to take care of. It's hard enough as it is, you could probably make it hard enough that no one would want to play IJ!

Just take AKs away....take lots of AKs away. IJ has far too much shipping available for military use. And it's too easy to build even more, if that's what you decide you want to have.

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RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/20/2008 8:00:58 AM

okami

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quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

Either reduce the amount of Japanese AK�s available for use in game to simulate the needs of the civilian economy,

which would place even less pressure on the fuel supply

quote:

or create a civilian economy that demands the majority of the ships be used in non-war fighting duties. If you can add a new *light* industry, why can�t you create a new *food* resource? Then require every industry point to use 4 food before it can produce anything and walla problem solved. Japan now needs 5 times as much shipping to bring home food and resources to get their industry going and they get no more supply produced by that industry than they did before.

Not a bad idea...however Food imports only constitued 30% of the metric tonnage imported by the Japanese.

there are other solutions...

Guys, please don't give IJ even more dirt to take care of. It's hard enough as it is, you could probably make it hard enough that no one would want to play IJ! Just take AKs away....take lots of AKs away. IJ has far too much shipping available for military use. And it's too easy to build even more, if that's what you decide you want to have.

Can't you just increase the load cost of all items and then it would take more ships to load the same stuff? Increase the load/unload speeds so that it does not take any more time to load/unload. Then we could have the same number of ships but less over capacity.

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"Square peg, round hole? No problem. Malet please.

(in reply to tsimmonds)

Post #: 329

RE: Taming Expansion of IJ Production - 1/20/2008 9:25:41 AM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

Can't you just increase the load cost of all items and then it would take more ships to load the same stuff? Increase the load/unload speeds so that it does not take any more time to load/unload. Then we could have the same number of ships but less over capacity.

That might make air supply drops impossible.

(in reply to okami)

Post #: 330