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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/13/2008 9:22:25 PM

cdbeck

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Besides, in support of Doggie, Liberal Economic theory allowed you to "enslave" Irish immigrants under wage slavery and still "feel good about yourself in the morning." Same thing happens in England (sometimes to the Irish there as well). Industrialists (read Capitalists) were often very against slavery for its absolute degradation of "innate human rights" but exploited their workers under harsh working conditions and subsistence (if even that) wages. The beauty of early liberalism and democractic movements was that the property owning class could feel justified in exploiting their workers - if you could find people who would work for you for trash wages, then you are not doing anything legally or morally "wrong." The same can not be said of slavery - as the subjegation of a person goes against the growing notions of free will, self-sovereignity, and self-control.

And as to to JD's last question. Is the Civil War really "over?" Not really. There are still major divisions in American culture that start at the old "Mason-Dixon" line (the difference between Maryland and Virginia is astonishing). Of course this has lessened with increased mobility, but ask any African American in the South about this. Further, I have known people from my home state of Indiana who moved to rural Tennesee, only two states south, and were very negatively looked upon... even to the point that they were told they were "damn Yankees" and should "go home."

The divisions still exist. Politically even, as most of the Southern politicians are a strange breed of socially conservative Republicans with very singular beliefs. Southern Baptist religious expression is very different than the more northern prevelant Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, and Catholics (note the South is becoming more Catholic due to Mexican immigration).

SoM

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/13/2008 10:34:02 PM

Twotribes

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Indentured servants were in fact given room and board, they did not have to find food or lodging themselves as has been claimed. However they did not get paid and could end up borrowing more money from the master and end up extending their indenture indefinately

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/14/2008 12:00:58 AM

andym

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anyone for a cup of Tea?Some Indians sold me a few boxes on Boston Harbour Wall,they were a bit damp but im sure it will be fine.

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/14/2008 12:10:12 AM

JudgeDredd

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Well I saw Far and Away!!

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/14/2008 12:26:42 AM

andym

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Me,Cleetus,Billy Bob and Bobby Joe are off shooting Gaters,you want to come Judge?Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!Got me a Banjo as well,Y'hear.

With a Rebel Yell He cried MORE,MORE!!!!

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/14/2008 2:44:35 AM

ezzler

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Irish Immigrants rioted in part for fear that newly free slaves would take thier jobs. They therefore must have felt the jobs were worth something and did not 'feel' slaves. I don't think there were many slaves rioting to remain slaves.

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/14/2008 4:14:22 AM

Sarge

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Paddy�s Lament is hardly disputable, the historical accounts have been well documented .

Anyone of you millions of decedents of the �PADDY�S � that flooded the Eastern seaboard in the years 1847- 00 can pay testimony to the atrocities of famine years and its deep hatred that still linger today.

A injustice of starving a Race of humanity off it�s indigenous lands for the profit of some fatass aristocrat landlord that was titled a chunk of this indigenous lands by the Crown by merely reaching some factitious noble rank.

A calculated genocide of a Race which only escape and survival was to hope and beg for indentured servitudes in the America�s .

Anyone that compares the slavery of Blacks and the Irish indentured servitudes of the 1840-00 has a comprehensive grasp on history and its denial is nothing more then a selective knowledge of history.

PS: No , I am not Irish

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/14/2008 7:50:35 AM

Capt. Harlock

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quote:

So, now that it's over, what do people think about the US now? Does it seem that the Civial War was a "necessity" to get the US to where it is now? Are there still issues? Resentment? Is it a case that the North and South have benefited mutualy from the outcome?

I realize that I'm going to ruffle a few feathers, but here goes. The United States is, strictly speaking, an empire. It has a staggering diversity of terrain, religious beliefs, and ethnic groups. It covers nearly half the planet's longitudes, from into the Atlantic to the middle of the Pacific, and from the Arctic to the tropics. And it has colonies in the form of Puerto Rico, Guam, and other possessions. But the vast majority of its people consider themselves a single nation -- and for all practical puposes, it is. The U.S. thus has the best of both worlds: the resources and cultures of an empire, and the cohesion of a country. My belief is that the Civil War is the primary reason for this: the identification of many people with their home states rather than the country as whole was one of many things that the war changed. The U.S. has benefited from this, but whether it was worth the tremendous cost is something very much open to debate.

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/14/2008 10:19:28 AM

JudgeDredd

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Capt Harlock

I think that's very well put.

The mind does boggle at two things regarding America

How it can still hold together when much smaller nations have regions crying out for independence
What the world would be like without the United States as is

Thx

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/14/2008 10:13:17 PM

geozero

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check out: http://www.civilwarhome.com/gordoncauses.htm

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/15/2008 2:28:06 AM

ORANGE

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Capt Harlock

I think that's very well put.

The mind does boggle at two things regarding America

How it can still hold together when much smaller nations have regions crying out for� independence
What the world would be like without the United States as is
Thx

I think the United States has an easier time staying together than other countries because after the Native Americans were driven off of their land the United States basically started with a clean slate.

Anyone that equates what the Irish went through with what slaves went through is a raving nut job.

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/15/2008 3:05:02 AM

cdbeck

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Oh yes... the states stay together due to bad things done to Native Americans?

I agree with Harlock, for the most part. Unfortunately, I believe he will be all too right in the next 200 years or so. The US has some vast similarities with the Roman Empire: large territory; a feeling of cultural superiority; a feeling of more "advanced" economic, political, and administrative systems; and a military hegemony over much of the know world.

However, it has some of the "bad" things about the Roman Empire too. Huge influxes of people from different cultures; a switch to a "decadent" service based economy; the outsourcing of certain types of undesirable industries to the outlying "provinces;" a slow transition of language, culture, and demography to immigrant "provincials;" not to mention the fact that everyone wanted a piece of Roman prosperity, even if this meant stealing it or conquering it.

I'll agree that the Civil War ended the question of are we a loose confederation of states or an imperial system with independent provinces ruled by a central entity. Democracy helps to keep this fused together - flawed as it is, it gives the illusion that localities can "defy" the "imperial throne" while keeping them operating within approved imperial guidelines. If people feel they are participating, they feel invested, and thus, less likely to leave.

SoM

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/15/2008 3:14:01 AM

ORANGE

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort

Oh yes... the states stay together due to bad things done to Native Americans?

I agree with Harlock, for the most part. Unfortunately, I believe he will be all too right in the next 200 years or so. The US has some vast similarities with the Roman Empire: large territory; a feeling of cultural superiority; a feeling of more "advanced" economic, political, and administrative systems; and a military hegemony over much of the know world.

However, it has some of the "bad" things about the Roman Empire too. Huge influxes of people from different cultures; a switch to a "decadent" service based economy; the outsourcing of certain types of undesirable industries to the outlying "provinces;" a slow transition of language, culture, and demography to immigrant "provincials;" not to mention the fact that everyone wanted a piece of Roman prosperity, even if this meant stealing it or conquering it.

I'll agree that the Civil War ended the question of are we a loose confederation of states or an imperial system with independent provinces ruled by a central entity. Democracy helps to keep this fused together - flawed as it is, it gives the illusion that localities can "defy" the "imperial throne" while keeping them operating within approved imperial guidelines. If people feel they are participating, they feel invested, and thus, less likely to leave.

SoM

I did not say that. It does make it easier without the centuries old land ownership issues and ethnic conflicts.

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/15/2008 3:20:22 AM

Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ORANGE

Anyone that equates what the Irish went through with what slaves went through is a raving nut job.

How so, please elaborate

Don�t going off on some irrelevant rant on share numbers ether. Taking your children to the docks of Co. Cork and putting them on the first boat going west with the only insurance of passage is their children�s hopeful physical survival and 10 years of hard fruitless labor ., that�s is if they happened to survived the trip in the hull of some crowded disease ridden profiteering slave ship paid for by mining and railroad tycoons .

How is separation of your children / love ones into servitudes on the hard truths of only option for survival any less of a human tragedy then almost identical harvest of the Black Race of humanity.

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/15/2008 3:28:15 AM

ORANGE

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge
Taking your children to the docks of Co. Cork and putting them on the first boat going west with the only insurance of passage is their children�s hopeful physical survival and 10 years of hard fruitless labor ., that�s is if they happened to survived the trip in the hull of some crowded disease ridden profiteering slave ship paid for by mining and railroad tycoons .

How is separation of your children / love ones into servitudes on the hard truths of only option for survival any less of a human tragedy then almost identical harvest of the Black Race of humanity.

The Irish had a choice.

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/15/2008 3:36:48 AM

Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ORANGE
The Irish had a choice.

That�s a na�ve reply Orange

If your going to call members "raving nut jobs" , it going to take a little more of a justification then some halfass line liner that points out your delusional grasp of history

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/15/2008 3:43:26 AM

ORANGE

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

quote:

ORIGINAL: ORANGE
The Irish had a choice.

That�s a na�ve reply Orange

If your going to call members "raving nut jobs" , it going to take a little more of a justification then some halfass line liner that points out your delusional grasp of history

I think having a choice is a huge difference.

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/15/2008 3:52:59 AM

Sarge

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Are the images for the shock factor ?

Because no one here is oblivious or debating the Black slave atrocities, try fill your reply with some insight to the question not shock images .

quote:

ORIGINAL: ORANGE
The Irish had a choice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ORANGE
I think having a choice is a huge difference.

"I think" is not going to cut it........

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/15/2008 4:32:57 AM

ORANGE

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

Are the images for the shock factor ?

Because no one here is oblivious or debating the Black slave atrocities, try fill your reply with some insight to the question not shock images .

quote:

ORIGINAL: ORANGE
The Irish had a choice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ORANGE
I think having a choice is a huge difference.

"I think" is not going to cut it........

It works for me.

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/15/2008 4:39:34 AM

ezzler

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The Irish were not slaves.
My family is irish .. we were never slaves.
1/4 of the family went to the Usa in 1840. Around 1/2 of them came back to Ireland after 6 -10 years the rest stayed. If they wslaves they couldn't have gone to the USA or come back as was their will.

being opressed and suffering economic hardship is NOT slavery.
By your reasoning you might as well say all Mexicans are slaves.
You're comments are not helping explain indentured servitude or domestic servitude but they are diiminishing slavery. When could a slave look forward to thier release from bondage?

Never I think.

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/15/2008 4:52:32 AM

Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ezz

The Irish were not slaves.
My family is irish .. we were never slaves.
1/4 of the family went to the Usa in 1840. Around 1/2 of them came back to Ireland after 6 -10 years the rest stayed. If they wslaves they couldn't have gone to the USA or come back as was their will.

Really ?

Did they pay for passage with servitude ?

And did they make this trip back in during the terms of this servitude ?

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/15/2008 7:10:44 AM

Doggie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ORANGE

The Irish had a choice.

No, they didn't. Unless you call starvation a "choice".

Slaves were too valuable to waste like this

You're not grasping cold hard economic reality. A slave cost a minimum of several hundred dollars. Irishmen cost a dollar a month, if that. Fifty seven dead Irishmen cost nothing. Fifty seven dead slaves meant a loss of several thousand dollars worth of valuable property. That's why slaves weren't used for dangerous work like building railroads and digging coal mines.

It takes a raving nut job to ignore reality in an attempt to rationalize a futile belief in northern moral superiority.

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/15/2008 10:30:18 PM

Capt. Harlock

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quote:

The Irish were not slaves.
My family is irish .. we were never slaves.

Happy to hear that for your family. But there were other Irish who weren't so lucky. The British authorities sent a number of their political enemies to the New World as slaves, both from Ireland and from Scotland. (Robert Louis Stevenson's immortal Kidnapped, which is set in an authentic historical background, makes mention of this.) Slavery was not an exclusively African affair for quite some time, until the mid-18th century.

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/16/2008 12:26:56 AM

ORANGE

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie

quote:

ORIGINAL: ORANGE

The Irish had a choice.

No, they didn't. Unless you call starvation a "choice".

Slaves were too valuable to waste like this

You're not grasping cold hard economic reality. A slave cost a minimum of several hundred dollars. Irishmen cost a dollar a month, if that. Fifty seven dead Irishmen cost nothing. Fifty seven dead slaves meant a loss of several thousand dollars worth of valuable property. That's why slaves weren't used for dangerous work like building railroads and digging coal mines.

It takes a raving nut job to ignore reality in an attempt to rationalize a futile belief in northern moral superiority.

I am not saying the North was morally superior to the South. I am not saying that the Irish or any other poor person during that time period was living a great life. It just sucked being poor. But I still think that comparing indentured servitude to slavery is pretty far out there and I shudder to think of why someone would delude themselves into thinking it.

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/16/2008 2:12:56 AM

Twotribes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ORANGE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie

quote:

ORIGINAL: ORANGE

The Irish had a choice.

No, they didn't. Unless you call starvation a "choice".

Slaves were too valuable to waste like this

You're not grasping cold hard economic reality. A slave cost a minimum of several hundred dollars. Irishmen cost a dollar a month, if that. Fifty seven dead Irishmen cost nothing. Fifty seven dead slaves meant a loss of several thousand dollars worth of valuable property. That's why slaves weren't used for dangerous work like building railroads and digging coal mines.

It takes a raving nut job to ignore reality in an attempt to rationalize a futile belief in northern moral superiority.

I am not saying the North was morally superior to the South. I am not saying that the Irish or any other poor person during that time period was living a great life. It just sucked being poor. But I still think that comparing indentured servitude to slavery is pretty far out there and I shudder to think of why someone would delude themselves into thinking it.

Because he is a southerner that thinks the south is superior.

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/16/2008 6:06:24 AM

cdbeck

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I'm not sure this debate has any merit. Atrocities were done in all instances, as they were with Chinese immigrants who worked out west building railroads and mining gold. The Mormons were persecuted and driven to Utah (a pretty heinous act even if you do not agree with their religion, particularly in a country that prides its freedom of religion). Native Americans died in droves, partly due to their state of war with the US. Entire islands worth of indigenous peoples died in the Caribbean, to be replaced with African slaves. Rebelling black slaves in Haiti responded to their slavery with bloody massacres of Europeans. Africans helped enslave other Africans.

Face it, history is bloody, messy, and full of human loss. The Irish had it bad, nearly 500K-1.5 million died in the potato famine, only to escape to the US and be forced into wage slavery, poverty, ghettos, and second class status (indentured servitude aside). Sure, more Africans died due to slavery, but the questions then become - how do you rank human suffering and is it useful to place one event against another and say "we had it worse?" Arguments like this are typically politically or nationalistically motivated, often with the ulterior motive of claiming some privilege, right, territory, or reparation.

Suffice to say that many people of many ethnicities paid the price to make the United States what it is. Some willingly, some unwillingly, but all are to credit for America's greatness, just as all are to blame for its atrocities.

SoM

< Message edited by Son_of_Montfort -- 1/16/2008 6:07:38 AM >

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/16/2008 8:37:09 AM

Marauders

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The Civil War�was about states rights, which was about slavery, which was about cotton, which was about money.

It's always about money.

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/19/2008 5:45:50 AM

tanker4145

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All I know is the North was right and God Bless Generals Sherman and Grant! PS Please Especially look good on General Sherman. He was a genius who did nothing but good works on earth in my opinion. Thank you Lord,

Signed,

Tanker

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Post #: 88

RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/19/2008 6:07:46 AM

cdbeck

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An example of General Grant's good works with the South.

He worked very hard to drain that bottle halfway... and not the whole way.

Something to note: It was after Grant was in Tennessee during the Civil War that suddenly Jack Daniels and Southern Comfort began being produced there... coincidence or conspiracy?!

< Message edited by Son_of_Montfort -- 1/19/2008 6:13:21 AM >

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RE: I think I have an interesting question for you US b... - 1/19/2008 8:53:42 AM

ravinhood

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Oh please don't mention Southern Comfort as I had a bad experience with that my first time ever to endulge in it. We mixed it with root beer, bad, bad, bad experience man. lol Not to mention we were really putting on the adult aires as we was smokin cigars as well that cold winters day we skipped school and thought we was sumthin. lol

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