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RE: WAW update and notes

 
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RE: WAW update and notes - 1/27/2008 5:49:53 PM   
tweber

 

Posts: 1411
Joined: 6/27/2007
Status: offline 		I meant to say China is more survivable. 

You get Tokyo back and the fleets when you play the China offensive card.  So you have 6 turns to move into position.

The German / Soviet DOW also triggers the Japanese major offensive which triggers the US embargo so Japan can no longer produce regular supply until at war with the US.  Japan can get by with the more expensive 'limited supply'.  The German and Japan player should coordinate this as you do not want the Japanese ships in port when the offensive is triggered.

< Message edited by tweber -- 1/27/2008 5:50:18 PM >

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 121
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/27/2008 6:17:27 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		Japan is already hamstrung by the fact you left out the entire Manchuko and Korean Armies. As well as all the Home Guard forces in mainland Japan. There should also be more Japanese forces IN China.

(in reply to tweber)
Post #: 122
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/27/2008 6:33:49 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Disagree, currently in playing this as both sides against varied level of players China is pretty screwed, if you wanted to get it correct, make the Jap NAvel a seperate country and prohibit them from entering China, the Army and NAvy hated each other forthe Japs, worse than the US if that is possible. I agree giving the JAps more troops is accurate BUT then you would need special rules as these troops in Korea and China where needed to pacify the Chinees.. so I like it almost as is, with less Jap troops and no partisans till at war with US, might need a little tweeking.. I would not lock out Tokyo from building that seems too much.

< Message edited by freeboy -- 1/28/2008 3:26:07 AM >

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 123
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/27/2008 11:58:13 PM   
SMK-at-work

 

Posts: 3396
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: New Zealand
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quote:

make the Chineese NAvel a seperate country and prohibit them from entering China, the Army and NAvy hated each other forthe Japs


I presume you mean make the Japanese Navy a seperate country rathe than the Chinese!! .....dunno how that would work but it seems a reasonable option.

However IMO the chinese do not need such help if run by a reasonably competant player - the Japanese just dont' have the firepower to smash through them given reasonably intelligent production choices by the Chinese, even with the IJN's air wing added in - against the AI+ it still takes longer than December 1941 to push them out of Beijing - which is way too long when you're going to have a war vs a human-led USA to cope with as well shortly.....

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 124
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/28/2008 12:41:46 AM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

quote:

make the Chineese NAvel a seperate country and prohibit them from entering China, the Army and NAvy hated each other forthe Japs


I presume you mean make the Japanese Navy a seperate country rathe than the Chinese!! .....dunno how that would work but it seems a reasonable option.

However IMO the chinese do not need such help if run by a reasonably competant player - the Japanese just dont' have the firepower to smash through them given reasonably intelligent production choices by the Chinese, even with the IJN's air wing added in - against the AI+ it still takes longer than December 1941 to push them out of Beijing - which is way too long when you're going to have a war vs a human-led USA to cope with as well shortly.....

I presume you mean Chungking, and not Beijing...

Anyhow, I disagree with your assessment. Let's look at some numbers:

Sian, isolated from Chungking, produces 2000. This is enough for 100-200 supply per turn, and 28-32 Chinese Conscripts per turn. This assumes minimal supply needs, and can go higher if you're in Winter, are taking losses, or upgrading your Rifles to higher levels.

Kunming, is only a supply/PP center. You'll generally want to produce only supplies here, so that will be pumping out 1000 supply per turn, unless bombed, or damaged by Japanese attacks. This is usually sufficient to feed the non-Maoist portion of your army.

This leaves Chungking, with 4000 production. This is enough to produce 80 Chinese Conscripts per turn.

Thus, you have a best-case scenario of around 100-110 Chinese infantry, assuming virtually all are conscripts, being produced per turn. Well below the 200 per turn increase in manpower. A reasonably competent Japanese player, producing a few artillery, level bombers, and committing the Imperial Marines, Fleets for shore bombardment, and Carrier Air, will be able to grind through 100-150 Chinese infantry, per turn. I've done it, or had it done to me, in each and every game I've played of WaW. Therefore, the Chinese will lose ground, while not gaining any strength, given a full commitment to China by the Japanese. As the fight gets closer to the production centers, things get progressively worse, since the damage caused to those centers, and their potential losses, further accelerates the force imbalance.

I'm not in favor of overly hamstringing Japan in the scenario, and disallowing Tokyo's production is too drastic, in my opinion. I think the changes need to happen from a logistics standpoint, primarily, which is why an active partisan presence in China from the beginning would help. If the Japanese have to garrison their supply lines, this will pull a good portion of the forces away from the front, and it is proportional to how far they drive into China. I would go so far as to suggest more Lt Woods hexes, in conjunction with Partisans, so that the expected number of them appearing is increased.

Finally, this is one case where I feel that a house rule might be in order. That is, until the start of the major offensive, only allow the IJN, both warships and carrier air, to strike at Chinese targets that are on a coastal hex. That means no sailing the fleet into ports and bombarding a hex deeper into the interior. No decoupling the Carrier Air, and allowing it to bomb deep in China from Wuhan, or constructed airfields. I don't feel that the IJN should be completely removed until this stage, as Tom proposed, but rather, keep it within a reasonable sphere of operation.

These changes, I believe, would restore a realistic balance to the Asian front, without overly hamstringing the Japanese player and depriving him from a choice of strategic direction.

(in reply to SMK-at-work)
Post #: 125
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/28/2008 12:57:12 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

Posts: 3396
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		You are ignoring the factories that the Chinese can produce with US supplied PP's (about 140 so far in 3 turns for example in this game), and assuming that the Japanese can continue to attack the Chinese forever without US intervention.

IMO both of these swing things China's way.

Being China is certainly a thankless position - you get to do almsot nothing except take it on the chin......but you have the terrain and you only have that one thing to do.

< Message edited by SMK-at-work -- 1/28/2008 12:58:41 AM >

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 126
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/28/2008 1:09:46 AM   
xBoroNx

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

You are ignoring the factories that the Chinese can produce with US supplied PP's (about 140 so far in 3 turns for example in this game), and assuming that the Japanese can continue to attack the Chinese forever without US intervention.

IMO both of these swing things China's way.

Being China is certainly a thankless position - you get to do almsot nothing except take it on the chin......but you have the terrain and you only have that one thing to do.


If China builds factories with the PP they get from Us help this in the long run rather aids the japanese player since he will eventually capture those factories too.
And more important, the japan player can simply stop the offensive on turn 1 not granting the chinese player any free PP. Then he just waits till germany starts barbarossa and kills the chinese player then with upgraded forces.

The Us most likely won't be able to go after Japan neither since they need to use their resources rather vs. germany. Usually within 6-12 months germany cripples/finishes russia and can then focus their full might on taking london. Only if the Usa commits most or all of their resources to the defense of London the allies have a chance to survive.

Us gearup is simply too slow. I usually do pearl harbour at the latest possible moment, so 5 turns after having started barbarossa. Then russia is already in extreme trouble normally and you still have 12/24 turns till the Us get their additional cities. Probably enough time to win the attrition war vs. GB and taking the last needed city for german victory, london.

Germany needs only air or sea supremacy for that. With air supremacy it is slower, since you need to first gain air supremacy over mid england (London is not possible since there fleets can be used as additional uber flak), then paradrop and then airlift enough stuff in to slowly win.
With sea supremacy it is easier, there you can simply bombard london and rather quickly take it. Also GB gets huge supply problems soon then. And since not all cities can produce ships you should due to the supply issues also get air supremacy.

Japan is mainly there for hurting the allies a bit and supporting germany.

(in reply to SMK-at-work)
Post #: 127
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/28/2008 1:31:10 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		I have not played far enough in to get much US support, but the 12 and 24 turn delays are, in my opinion probably to drastic.

Again with Soviets there should be an auto grant of Infantry for the first 3 months after Germany attacks if they use the blitz card. I would further suggest a free grant of some type for lend lease to the Soviets or increasing their production farther back from the front.

Something that is not modeled at all is the fact that the Soviets dismantled a LOT of the production capability in the west and shipped east out of Germany's reach. 2 Things happen with that in regards this game, it would protect Soviet production and it should lessen production for Germany from captured Soviet cities.

One suggestion I have specific to lend lease is that the Soviets should get several trucks a turn in lendlease, this was a huge boost to the Soviet war effort, we shipped MASSIVE amounts of trucks to them. Another thing we provided tons of was comm gear and comm wire, perhaps model that by providing the Soviets lend lease Staff? The comm wire and gear is what allowed the late war massing of Soviet Artillery Divisions. The Soviets literally depended on us for Comm wire for most of the war.

The Far East Forces are not adequately represented in my opinion either. Double the Soviet force in the Far East while also increasing the Japanese force in Manchuria and Korea.

The Japanese forces should be ( with the one current mobile unit an exception) be locked inside Manchuria and Korea ( make that a separate entity possibly) and they are only freed if the Soviets attack or the Japanese play the Soviet attack. Further require a garrison event then in Manchuria or Soviet Union so that stripping those forces for mainland China causes some consequence to the Japanese ( perhaps if Garrison is not met the Japanese can not pay PP to end a Soviet war?) Also once total war with west the Japanese manchuria forces and Korean forces are also awake but garrison still applies.

This would cause the Japanese to think twice about such an adventure since they will take losses in a war and would then have to replace them to end it if going badly.

Allow the Soviet player to cut his garrison by half if the Japanese are at war with the US. And punish him the same way if his garrison is lacking.

Just some ideas. I do not understand events and cards well at all so can not do these things myself.

(in reply to xBoroNx)
Post #: 128
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/28/2008 1:31:26 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

Posts: 3396
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quote:

If China builds factories with the PP they get from Us help this in the long run rather aids the japanese player since he will eventually capture those factories too.


Straight away you're assuming the Japanese will walk over the chinese and that such factories will make no difference - how can you say that?  A couple of factories will almsot double Chinese output of Infantry or conscripts and/or add in a few flak to help against the air power........you make that sound like it's trivial.


quote:

And more important, the japan player can simply stop the offensive on turn 1 not granting the chinese player any free PP. Then he just waits till germany starts barbarossa and kills the chinese player then with upgraded forces.


which screws up Japanese production with double-cost supply and allows teh chinese that time as respite in which they can upgrade their own infantry....plus gain expereience for new troops they are producing rathe than having to throw them into the front lines with minimal training.

IMO you're taking a completely 1-sided look at the situation by completely ignoring Chinese improvements.

(in reply to xBoroNx)
Post #: 129
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/28/2008 2:31:11 AM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

You are ignoring the factories that the Chinese can produce with US supplied PP's (about 140 so far in 3 turns for example in this game), and assuming that the Japanese can continue to attack the Chinese forever without US intervention.

I'm not really ignoring them. I've only left them out of the initial assessment. In fact, I've hinted as much in other posts that the only viable strategy for the Chinese, at the moment is to run slowly back with the army, and quickly back with the engineers so that they can build factories as fast as the PP's roll in, and EP's build up.


quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work
IMO both of these swing things China's way.

They help, though I'm not yet convinced that the pendulum swings back far enough.


quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work
Being China is certainly a thankless position - you get to do almsot nothing except take it on the chin......but you have the terrain and you only have that one thing to do.

We're in complete agreement here. Not sure what else there is to do though, and any real offensive capability for them would be rather ahistorical, as well...


(in reply to SMK-at-work)
Post #: 130
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/28/2008 2:32:08 AM   
xBoroNx

 

Posts: 404
Joined: 12/8/2007
Status: offline 		No SMK, Japan only gets the limited supply in the limited timeframe of launching their major offensive till they do pearl harbor.

So if Japan makes peace with the chinese on turn 1 china gets zero pp from Us-Aid. Japan can produce just fine till either germany starts Barbarossa and thus automatically triggers the major offensive or till they chose to launch the offensive on their own. And then only up to a maximum of 5 turns you have the limited supply, but with a bit of planning ahead you can simply store the supply by producing it a couple of turns before.

So it is simply up to 22k Industry for Japan vs. 8k Chinese, 2k of them resources. China has nearly zero research. Iirc they only start with basic infantry. Japan has a couple of lvl 2 and the rest lvl 1.

A nasty trick is also trying to strategic bomb the chinese as Japan. China starts with only 50 engineers and 2 Fighters. Fighter tech and Engineer tech both cost China iirc 40 PP. If China has no Engineer tech Japan can simply attrition them by strategic bombing them and then simply kill them without much losses on their own via artillery/airforce.
Usually Japan and China awake mid 1940. In case Barb starts historically the Chinese player than has 1 year = 12 turns. That are theoretically 12x16 pp he could produce, but he needs also some supply. So if he would only produce supply + pp the chinese player would likely get around 12x10 pp = 120. Enough for engineer tech + fighter tech or one of those 2 techs + 1 factory. But then you have not produced much additional forces, so the japanese player can likely kill china before it starts to benefit from the factory building.

(in reply to SMK-at-work)
Post #: 131
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/28/2008 2:43:50 AM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline 		How about a simple change - only let Japan build supplies and PP in "captured" Chinese cities? Maybe only half value too? Only let Seoul produce all types. Then the IJA must ship from Japan. Slows down threat to Chinese while not having to hamstring IJN or house rules. Also add Chinese partisans from awakening of China and Japan.

Should make China campaign slow slog as it really was.....

_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

(in reply to xBoroNx)
Post #: 132
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/28/2008 3:34:20 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Well, the real issue here, is that as is JApan gets to use the Marines and naval air to attack China. From a purely units on hte map, it is always difficult to see Japaneese army not rolling across China.. the reality wwas China is a huge area with a vast populace. As the war would get into China from the coast.. the West would most definately respond, giving an embargo at a minimum and perhaps endingthe diplomatic block as an earlier version of waw had...
So.. why not give the Chinese a one to one pp ratio, and the west has the abiltiy if japan uses its Naval assets in China to respond with a chineese lend lease.. I forgotten what our aid was called to China.

Can u use the events to help the Chinese player? I am sure you can... or simply allow aid from the west.. through India

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 133
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/28/2008 6:40:45 AM   
tweber

 

Posts: 1411
Joined: 6/27/2007
Status: offline 		I will have to play it out but I do not think that Japan will always roll over the Chinese, especially if you play the version where the Japanese fleet is not available until the major offensive begins

- If Japan pursues the war with China, the Chinese can build lots of Conscripts.  They have a power point so every casualty effective gives the Chinese a 5x gain in political points.
- The Soviets have a decent garrison that can threaten the Japanese.  Japan can buy them off with 20 pp.  However, Japan does not have a lot of pp production and will find themselves falling behind techonologically.  If Japan tries to fight the Soviets, this draws strength from China.
- Japan should have a difficult time maintaining a continous front, the chinese should build lots of small conscripts and try to infiltrate and cut supply. 

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 134
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/28/2008 10:05:45 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Well, so far, as Jamien said all our tests with multiple players playingeach side has the Chinese gettingthe snot kicked out of them, exceiept in XboronX mod where he added two factories  for china producing Huge militia units and or supplies plaus a host of other production changes. Tom, I have not even looked at the new version.. it takes a bit and the farthest we are at is late 41 in the three current waw games. I may play a limitet asia only solo game of your new one, But Japan winning in China should not end the war... I think German and JApan getting troops from captured cities, save perhaps Baltic states and Ukrain if you allow a special liberation hand card for germany.. IF you allow those places like canton or Moscow to only produce munitions, tanks planes etc and not troops... that seems reasonable.. Maybe givingthe German player a modifyier event that if they take x number of cities they get a factories increase ? just a thought  

(in reply to tweber)
Post #: 135
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/28/2008 8:10:04 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		is there an end date?

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 136
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/28/2008 8:54:08 PM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		Hi Tom,

I think I might have spotted a bug in the scenario, or at least an undocumented "feature". In my WaWtest game with freeboy, he launched his Japanese Blitz and attacked Pearl, Philippines, Singapore and the NEA. The oddity occurred in the NEA. I had an HQ unit in Medan, and two of the three NEA resources were assigned to it. The other, Brunei was assigned to the India HQ. I got lucky in his assaults and only Brunei fell. The HQ in Medan was NOT attacked. However, when I opened my turn, it was GONE. Simply vanished, without a trace. The remaining infantry units are still on the map, but they have no assigned HQ, and the resource hexes are unassigned, as well.

Any clues as to what happened? I scoured the briefing and I see nothing indicating that the HQ will vanish without a fight.

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 137
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/28/2008 9:02:43 PM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline 		Hi James,

I came across this while modding the scenario. When the US enters the. part of the vent assigns DEI to the US by using Join area. Part of this command deletes units that are in the area doing the joining. Not sure how to fix this with his setup, but in my multi-people mod, the join is done when Holland is attacked and done by JoinRegime command where the units can also join the new regime.

_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 138
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/28/2008 9:16:17 PM   
gingerbread


Posts: 2994
Joined: 1/4/2007
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Found some minor issues:

Nigeria with Lagos should stay West - not join Vichy. Corsica should go to Vichy.

Why are there two Nimitz HQs (Pearl, SF)

g

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 139
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/28/2008 9:55:24 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Does anyone know if WAW has a end date?

(in reply to gingerbread)
Post #: 140
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/28/2008 10:49:03 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Does anyone know if WAW has a end date?

When the fat lady sings...

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 141
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/28/2008 11:49:17 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		I reeally could take a home run swing at that one, but I will simplw snicker!

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 142
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/29/2008 3:28:39 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

Posts: 3396
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From: New Zealand
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBoroNx

No SMK, Japan only gets the limited supply in the limited timeframe of launching their major offensive till they do pearl harbor.

So if Japan makes peace with the chinese on turn 1 china gets zero pp from Us-Aid. Japan can produce just fine till either germany starts Barbarossa and thus automatically triggers the major offensive or till they chose to launch the offensive on their own. And then only up to a maximum of 5 turns you have the limited supply, but with a bit of planning ahead you can simply store the supply by producing it a couple of turns before.


Am i confusing the 2? I thought the expensive supply started with stalemate & was removed with the major offensive? Otherwise what reason is there for Japan to NOT play it??

(in reply to xBoroNx)
Post #: 143
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/29/2008 3:44:30 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

Posts: 3396
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		somewhere someone suggested that the nomonhan card is wrong because the russians are all deployed in teh wrong place and there's no reason for eth Japs to capture Vladivostok....but I can't find hte post now :(

Anyway - I'd just like to point out that the nomonhan incident actually took place along het Mongolia/Manchuria border - nowhere near Vladivostok.  tehre had been even smaller clashes along hte Amur river at Lake Khasan in 1938, but they were very minor indeed.

The total forces at Nomonhan were quite small too - only 2 full divisions on each side, plust 5 or 6 brigades for the sov's IIRC - a couple of tank, 1 a/car and some MG units I think.  Basically the Japanese had the 18th inf division (IIRC) more or less wiped out - it was out on its own and fairly easily surrounded and destroyed in detail...although individual soldiers fought very bravely.

(in reply to SMK-at-work)
Post #: 144
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/29/2008 3:55:31 AM   
xBoroNx

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work


quote:

ORIGINAL: xBoroNx

No SMK, Japan only gets the limited supply in the limited timeframe of launching their major offensive till they do pearl harbor.

So if Japan makes peace with the chinese on turn 1 china gets zero pp from Us-Aid. Japan can produce just fine till either germany starts Barbarossa and thus automatically triggers the major offensive or till they chose to launch the offensive on their own. And then only up to a maximum of 5 turns you have the limited supply, but with a bit of planning ahead you can simply store the supply by producing it a couple of turns before.


Am i confusing the 2? I thought the expensive supply started with stalemate & was removed with the major offensive? Otherwise what reason is there for Japan to NOT play it??

Yes you are confusing them. There is unfortunately no reason for Japan to not play the card.
Because as you described correctly if Japan tries to immediately kill China due to the PP grants China then indeed has some chance to at least survive. But if the Japan player plays the card immediately China is doomed once the Japanese dow them again.

(in reply to SMK-at-work)
Post #: 145
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/29/2008 4:09:04 AM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work


quote:

ORIGINAL: xBoroNx

No SMK, Japan only gets the limited supply in the limited timeframe of launching their major offensive till they do pearl harbor.

So if Japan makes peace with the chinese on turn 1 china gets zero pp from Us-Aid. Japan can produce just fine till either germany starts Barbarossa and thus automatically triggers the major offensive or till they chose to launch the offensive on their own. And then only up to a maximum of 5 turns you have the limited supply, but with a bit of planning ahead you can simply store the supply by producing it a couple of turns before.


Am i confusing the 2? I thought the expensive supply started with stalemate & was removed with the major offensive? Otherwise what reason is there for Japan to NOT play it??

xBoroNx is correct as far as how the mechanics of the stalemate and major offensive cards work. This is one of the things that I find slightly wonky about them. Unless the Japanese player is doing very poorly in China, there is really no reason to choose the stalemate card. In fact, in game terms, it would be really a stupid idea to do so, before straightening the lines to minimize gaps and bulges.

In historical terms though, the Japanese and Chinese essentially sat in their starting positions throughout the war until about 1944 when major gains were realized against the Chinese, and then in 1945 when the Chinese were able to drive them back somewhat. In other words, the stalemate card's effect, should be the historical starting condition, which should be then negated, when the major offensive is played, which then sets off the chain of events leading to the Pacific Blitz. I don't have too much an issue with the MO being tied to Barbarossa, as that is when the Japanese would be reasonably assured of the Russians being too distracted to threaten Manchuria. Likewise, for game terms it should still remain a prerequisite for the Pacific Blitz, but I think that the Stalemate card should be done away with and a Stalemate imposed from the point in time that the Chinese and Japanese enter the game. Then, maybe allow a Limited War card for both the Chinese and Japanese players, similar in effect to the Nomonhan card. If not already played, this card would be removed if the MO is played. During Limited War, the Japanese would have supplies cost 3 pp per, while the Chinese only get 1 PP, for every 4 power points destroyed. LoL...like a drunken night at a urinal, it's hard to keep all the PP straight, what with production points, Power Points, and Political Points.

Anyhow, just some food for thought to make this scenario a little more realistic and playable for all parties involved.

(in reply to SMK-at-work)
Post #: 146
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/29/2008 4:17:49 AM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
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Status: offline 		Another thing that could be done, is to make the Chinese Stalemate a card that both China and Japan have access to, and that could be played by either side. A 20 PP penalty could be paid by the player playing it, similar to the Nomonhan Incident ceasefire card. Then, the stalemate could be broken by the play of the MO card. This would allow a very limited window for the Japanese to make major gains before they had to turn their attention to the rest of the Pacific. Upon reflection, I think this might be the simplest and most elegant set of events.

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 147
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/29/2008 4:34:08 AM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
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From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Another thing that could be done, is to make the Chinese Stalemate a card that both China and Japan have access to, and that could be played by either side. A 20 PP penalty could be paid by the player playing it, similar to the Nomonhan Incident ceasefire card. Then, the stalemate could be broken by the play of the MO card. This would allow a very limited window for the Japanese to make major gains before they had to turn their attention to the rest of the Pacific. Upon reflection, I think this might be the simplest and most elegant set of events.


Hmmm.... I like this idea.... So when Paris falls China gets a move before the Japs, but they don't have enough PP to play the stalemate card. So they have to choose to build troops to keep back the Japs or PP to hurry up the the card payment. Next round, Japs move and can attack but do they attack hard and cause the Chinese to gain PP quickly or do the maneuover and make small attacks try to maixmize land gained over losses to China.
This would require some balancing between the PP gain for troops lost for China and the cost of the card. Also does Japan have to pay for the card?.....

_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 148
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/29/2008 5:06:46 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

Posts: 3396
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		Ahh...sorry for the confusion then.

Perhaps that's a better answer then - the Japanese should be blockaded if they play het stalemate card?

Historically the stalemate was actually already in effect when China & Japan join the war in 1940 (assuming....) - and it was actually the USSR that was supplying the Chinese until the signing of the Soviet-Japanese non-Neutrality pact in April of 1941.  The AVG didn't see combat until December 1940 - after Pearl Harbour, and the oil blockade didn't start until july of 1941, mainly in response to Japanese occupation of Vietnam rather than anything in particular in China, although the aim was to force withdrawl from both.

So there are some fairly large liberties taken with the game already!! :)

Can I suggest a few changes:
1/ Make chinese conscripts even cheaper, double the size of the chinese armies and make them 75% conscript
2/ Reduce chinese resources so that they have a very hard time producing anything except conscripts, but they can still produce an awful lot of them
3/ Make chinese cities only minimally productive for the Japanese - say only 25% - including those already captured

These 3 will make china more of a morass for Japan, reduce Chinese offensive capabilities, and also reduce Japanese incentives to spend resources pushing deep into china

4/ Do away with the PP grants to China from the US, but institute a few from Russia - rename the AVG as ZET - the Soviet volunteer aviation group, to be removed as below
5/ Do away with the stalemate card
6/ Do away with the Nomonhan Incident card  - replace it with a "Neutrality card" - the neutrality card means either side has to pay some large PP penalty to attack the other (60?).  Can be played any time the embargo is in effect with the agreement of both players - costs (say) 10 PP each - so has to be accepted by both sides.  Removes all Soviet aid to China, including the ZET if still in play
7/ Japan occupies French Indo-China 6 months after the fall of Paris.  Only gets 25% of value of Saigon
8/ Oil embargo starts 6 months after occupation of French Indo-China - but there is no limit on how long Japan can "suffer" it for if they want - perhaps up the ante by further increasing supply costs (doubling again?) after another 6 months representing running out of oil stockpiles and providing an incentive to attack?
9/ Retain the Pacific blitz card for effect.
10/ Japanese fleet air arm starts a bit smaller (note that Japanese fleet air units were integral to many Army actions in China, so IMO it's better to start them small and they get built up befoer teh war rather than trying to seperate them out as a different peoples or whatever - also having to build an air arm will limit Japnese technical advances pre-war)

The idea with these 7 is to more faithfully replicate history prior to the start of the Pacific war while still giving both sides some decisions to be made.

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 149
RE: WAW update and notes - 1/29/2008 5:58:55 AM   
tweber

 

Posts: 1411
Joined: 6/27/2007
Status: offline 		These are some interesting ideas.  I a bit confused by the Neutrality card in your number 6.  Could you explain again?

(in reply to SMK-at-work)
Post #: 150
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