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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War I] >> Guns of August 1914 - 1918 >> Raw materials,food and finished goods

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Raw materials,food and finished goods - 1/19/2008 9:29:21 PM

Nordiska

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From: N. Carolina
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New to the game, just a few questions, playing as the Central Powers:
How does the Raw materials, food, and finished goods transfer work? I've found that Austria generally has more raw materials, so I transfer them to Germany. Neither country has enough food, they are both starving... what to do about that?

What about finish goods? What good are they and who should I generally transfer them to?

What good is cavalry?

Post #: 1

RE: Raw materials,food and finished goods - 1/20/2008 4:13:23 AM

wargamer123

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I do not fully understand the raw material aspect of the game. It seems to be logically this, raw production-then produced-then Finished and ready to be used and then eaten by Industry? Though I am thoroughly confused about that portion of the economics. I do know that AH seems to have more than Germany, or rather she has more she not using early in the game..... and Germany is starved for it, she can attain more by Baltic Trade PreProdRaws, and by Atlantic trade if she dares... The only other way to solve this is to get an opening to the OE, or capture I believe it is 3 of your enemies then that transfers into 1 for you... Similarly with food, you need to capture the enemies food. Kinda like Rommel having to capture Fuel supplies in North Africa? I dunno but regardless Germany cannot run forever on an empty stomach, a few less Raws will only hurt her production but food will kill her and it will kill any nation... Russia is also a bit weak with food if she is attacked successfully.. I hope some others can elaborate on the Raw-Industry-Production Figures... A diagram for AH-OE�Germany and France-Russia-UK would be wonderous... What they have in surplus and what they can actually use

I do know from the manual that your industry increases per turn at War, so eventually all of them will need massive amounts of Materials...So regardless longterm is bleak for the CP

1 tip, own the baltic, that is a freebie there, 2nd tip, 3 raws can easily go to Germany from AH early in the game... That so far I have noticed to be pretty standard? See what the more adept GOA players might add

< Message edited by wargamer123 -- 1/20/2008 4:15:37 AM >

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Post #: 2

RE: Raw materials,food and finished goods - 1/20/2008 9:33:53 AM

hjaco

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Well presence of enemy ships disrupts the benefit of your trading so try as the CP to completely dominate the Baltic and do shipping there each turn. When your transports gets down to 1 in endurance which happens each 3 turns then give them return orders and send out new shipping immediately as the original transports will have returned to base before the next strategy phase.

The benefit with a France first is it gives you the possibility to at least go for the French raw material hexes which add up as the game progresses.

Apart from losing 2 in morale for each food shortage per turn it also lowers your production capacity ! That is usually not so big a problem for the CP though

Captured food resources are used up permanently after 1 to 4 turns of occupancy. If the country in being is being conquered then you control it permanently.

Remember to change control of conquered resources (like Bulgaria) with a major power unit as minors don't use those resources. Similarly its important to optimize control of captures raw material as you don't get to use the full value.

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RE: Raw materials,food and finished goods - 1/20/2008 9:38:17 AM

hjaco

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Regarding industrial capacity that increases for each county up to 100 % of its infrastructure that is if you have sufficient raw materials.

Note that the entry of America is decisive in more than one way. Not only a you going to face the Yankee caterpillar corps crushing your lines you also have to face something like +20 food and + 20 raw material in surplus for America per turn. So you can kiss goodbye to your SUB warfare offensive against CW - America will simply transfer the needed resources. In fact the only limitation on American Lend Lease is their transfer restriction based on strategic movement capability. So definitely delay those Yanks for as long as possible !

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RE: Raw materials,food and finished goods - 1/20/2008 9:41:12 AM

hjaco

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Oh and i forgot (its early Sunday

).

When you conquer a major power you get a large one time transfusion of raw material - around 25 for Russia. I can't remember France and Italy.

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RE: Raw materials,food and finished goods - 1/20/2008 8:41:04 PM

Nordiska

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So basically as the CP I am going to slowly starve(no food)? I might capture a hex here and there to slow the starvation but I really can't stop it?!?

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RE: Raw materials,food and finished goods - 1/20/2008 9:12:43 PM

Lascar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nordiska

So basically as the CP I am going to slowly starve(no food)? I might capture a hex here and there to slow the starvation but I really can't stop it?!?

It appears to be that way. It seems that even if Russia surrenders the Germans will never have access to most of the food sources in the Ukraine, that area is partitioned off and the Germans can't occupy it. I'm not sure if that is historically accurate.

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RE: Raw materials,food and finished goods - 1/21/2008 7:06:36 AM

SMK-at-work

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Germany gets all the areas that it got historically from the Treaty of Brest Litovsk.

However in real life they were insufficient - the Ukraine had poor harvests in 1916 and 1917, plus there was not the infrastructure to carry food back to Germany in the 8 months from the treaty to surrender.

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RE: Raw materials,food and finished goods - 1/21/2008 9:12:17 AM

Lascar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

Germany gets all the areas that it got historically from the Treaty of Brest Litovsk.

However in real life they were insufficient - the Ukraine had poor harvests in 1916 and 1917, plus there was not the infrastructure to carry food back to Germany in the 8 months from the treaty to surrender.

The line of demarcation in GoA does not extend into the Ukraine as far as the historical Treaty of Brest Litovsk. It does not extend beyond the Dniepr where most of the food sources are located.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Lascar -- 1/21/2008 9:13:35 AM >

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Post #: 9

RE: Raw materials,food and finished goods - 1/21/2008 11:01:02 AM

wargamer123

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that is a massive chunk of Ukrainian Wheat. I recall reading it was most of the Ukraine and secondly, the wheat saved the CP from starvation, so a blessing to happen, what defeated the CP moreover may have been the years prior of starvation and the weakening of morale overtime...Overall war weariness in other words

That should've fed the German People for awhile!

Secondly the offensives in the West failed and the counteroffensives completely demoralized and the Germans so that may be more a contribution than overall starvation by this point... We have to understand, that is not far to gather some wheat! Horse Drawn carriages and whatever else would get that home in a few months!

Food is not Iron Ore, it can be shipped by more than one method, and in bulk. The Treatyline is as exactly as I've seen it a dozen books over... Deep into the Ukraine, and that's all the Germans really cared of as I recall, the breakbasket of Russia they called it

< Message edited by wargamer123 -- 1/21/2008 11:02:48 AM >

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RE: Raw materials,food and finished goods - 1/21/2008 3:46:20 PM

hjaco

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Well access to the Ukraine was like putting out a fire with a cup of water. You may have access to a lake of water but you can't distribute it fast enough.

I remember reading about a situation in summer 1918 where some river boats transporting grain from the Ukraine to Germany was stopped and requisitioned by the authorities in Vienna. They feared open riots if they didn't get some food fast. In response Ludendorff seriously considered to declare war on AH.

Besides Germany kept a staggering 1,5 million battle hardened soldiers in the occupied territories. Not only were they badly needed in the west they also plundered the food supply in the Ukraine in more than sufficient volumes for themselves.

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RE: Raw materials,food and finished goods - 1/22/2008 12:08:54 AM

SMK-at-work

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Lascar - yes you're right...mea culpa.

Wargamer the Ukrainian wheat did not save Germany from starvation because almost none of it actually made it to Germany - according to an article in Time only 42,000 truckloads of grain were sipped out of hte Ukraine during the entire period of the CP occupation - see http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,760609-3,00.html

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RE: Raw materials,food and finished goods - 1/22/2008 1:01:48 AM

Strike1905

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Economics are for the staff to worry about.
I have a war to fight!
(yeah, that's my spirit!)
(though I realize that if I want to compete with the big boys, I guess I'll have to pay attention)

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Post #: 13

RE: Raw materials,food and finished goods - 1/22/2008 4:37:08 AM

wargamer123

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SMK,

yes, I read your interesting article, seems the German Plans to get that food out just doesn't to happen, you've got soldiers to feed, you've got distance, you've got stubborn Ukrainians, and poor transport...
Stalin had similar issues a little later, he let 3 million of them starve in the Ukraine, I suppose the Russians had a more effective way of extracting Wheat...

Although everyone was starving in both World Wars. I recall stories of women alive today from those times telling me how they made it through and fed 8 children, most of these children today are missing teeth, hair and other things. Both sides were starving, of course Ludendorf and his men weren't feeling it in WW1 nor were anyone of consequence, I submit this article:

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9B02E2D6163EE433A25757C1A9609C946996D6CF&oref=slogin

It appears, that the starving class was the poor class, and yes civil unrest was all about, though I imagine no more than in WW2 where if you argued a hungry belly they fixed it with a bullet. I do not think WW1 Germany is likely to shrink to these unfathomables depths but they did commit some minor atrocities in Belgium and Poland...

Furthermore, what you DO NOT take into account what if I take the Treaty against Russia in 1915 or 1916, why should I not get the full benefit of what historically was impossible, since the Ukraine didn't remain in the hands of the CP long enough to yield it's crops

So it's not the lack of transport, or vile soldiers, tough peasants, time is of the essence for WW1 GOA terms, I should have the ability to reap my reward for doing the job "on time" perhaps the Ukraine would've saved Germany but just when she finally succeeded to collapse the Russians.

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Post #: 14

RE: Raw materials,food and finished goods - 1/22/2008 5:54:09 AM

SMK-at-work

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the NY times archive is a great resource for WW1 :)

If you conquer Russia early enough you do get a good benefit tho - IIRC there's as many as 4 or 5 food resources on offer? that's enough to make up for the German shortfall until they run out...

However there seems to have ben a different mechanism in place for using conquered resources in the Ukraine rather than the stripping they seem to have done in Belgium and France - eg at http://tinyurl.com/39zqn4 (also a NY Times archive article pdf) they note that German farmers are being offered about 290 marks per ton of wheat delivered to Berlin, but a ton of Ukrainian wheet would cost 637 marks per ton - and Ukrainian farmers were getting 487 marks of that.

Oddly the German farmers thought they should be getting 487 marks/ton too!!

Which reminds me of something else I read about WW1 economics - basically the allies agreed to pay suppliers (including farmers) as much as they could for their products - as a result suppliers were eager to produce, and farm production never really suffered at all - indeed UK farm production increased during the war despite labour shortages. There was some inflation as prices increased to cope with demand, but eventually (fairly quickly) supply caught up. Access to US prfood helped a lot of course!

By contrast the CP put price caps on everything, which effectively stiffled supply and encouraged the black market. The effect was that there was no incentive to increase production, so there was no increase in production.

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RE: Raw materials,food and finished goods - 1/22/2008 7:31:13 AM

wargamer123

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SMK,

I haven't noted yet if the Russian Food Supplies do the same as they do in the West, that is go invisible after you steamroll them. I think the one near Riga did so you sure you absolutely get those Food Sources?

Really, the real estate is of no importance, you could own all of Russia but if you do not get the Food, what's the value? I know Serbia often loses it's food Source if you conquor it... I have always seen the Belgian once go away also. Really Painful considering the cost to take these... But realistic I assume

This would make for a gamey bypass of the Food or Raw source and hit the Capitol to protect it and capture all the Cities instead... Really should have the same effect if you rape and pillage...

As for The corrupt Production in the German owned territories, sounds like the CSA during the Civil War. Thousands of GreyCoats were freezing in trenches in Northern Virginia, while a warhouse was full of Winter Coats in Alabama... Though since there was a corrupt quota system in place those coats never got to the men on the front lines. It's not like an all out war effort it's an ineffective system, not sure if the Politicians knew or not but they probably put it in place with an agenda that really doesn't win wars... Sounds like this is what you're describing here... A strategy that does not win wars

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Post #: 16

RE: Raw materials,food and finished goods - 12/4/2010 12:44:50 AM

SMK-at-work

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Bump - an interesting discussion�& some useful tips

< Message edited by SMK-at-work -- 12/4/2010 12:45:12 AM >

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Post #: 17