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RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War

 
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RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 1/24/2008 3:54:10 PM   
Sauvequipeut

 

Posts: 79
Joined: 4/7/2007
Status: offline 		One thing I've never seen is a sub attacking another sub...does this ever happen in WitP?

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 31
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 1/24/2008 3:54:49 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauvequipeut

One thing I've never seen is a sub attacking another sub...does this ever happen in WitP?


No - i think they might try to put in in AE, though.

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Post #: 32
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 1/25/2008 3:43:22 AM   
wwengr


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From: Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauvequipeut

One thing I've never seen is a sub attacking another sub...does this ever happen in WitP?


No - i think they might try to put in in AE, though.


Did Sub vs. Sub ever actually occur in WWII?

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Post #: 33
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 1/25/2008 6:21:59 AM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr

Did Sub vs. Sub ever actually occur in WWII?


Yes it did. Read the book War Fish for an occurance.

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Post #: 34
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 1/25/2008 7:02:45 AM   
Sauvequipeut

 

Posts: 79
Joined: 4/7/2007
Status: offline 		There was a fair few subs put down by other subs in both WWI and WWII.

British subs bagged 19 U-Boats in WWII, with American subs adding a further 2. The Royal Navy lost at least 3 subs to U-Boats.

In WWI British subs had accounted for 18 U-Boats, including some gained by using a variant of the Q-Ship principle - instead of arming the ship, it was shadowed by a sub. U-Boats claimed 5 British subs in return. 

There were also sub-on-sub friendly fire losses - most famously the sinking of HMS Oxley by HMS Triton on 10 September 1939, which gained for the Oxley the unwanted distinction of being both the first British warship sunk in WWII and the first warship to be sunk by the British in WWII.

In the Pacific in WWII the US Navy lost at least one sub to a Japanese sub - the USS Corvina in 1943. US subs are credited with 19 Japanese subs, and the RN a further 2. That represents about 1/6th of Japanese WWII sub losses.

So...it did happen and should be represented, although as an occasional occurrence, not a wild-west style mid-ocean sub-on-sub shootout.

(in reply to wwengr)
Post #: 35
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 1/25/2008 1:19:30 PM   
wwengr


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From: Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauvequipeut

There was a fair few subs put down by other subs in both WWI and WWII.

British subs bagged 19 U-Boats in WWII, with American subs adding a further 2. The Royal Navy lost at least 3 subs to U-Boats.

In WWI British subs had accounted for 18 U-Boats, including some gained by using a variant of the Q-Ship principle - instead of arming the ship, it was shadowed by a sub. U-Boats claimed 5 British subs in return. 

There were also sub-on-sub friendly fire losses - most famously the sinking of HMS Oxley by HMS Triton on 10 September 1939, which gained for the Oxley the unwanted distinction of being both the first British warship sunk in WWII and the first warship to be sunk by the British in WWII.

In the Pacific in WWII the US Navy lost at least one sub to a Japanese sub - the USS Corvina in 1943. US subs are credited with 19 Japanese subs, and the RN a further 2. That represents about 1/6th of Japanese WWII sub losses.

So...it did happen and should be represented, although as an occasional occurrence, not a wild-west style mid-ocean sub-on-sub shootout.


I assume that these were surface engagements between the subs. Or at least the targeted sub was on the surface. This is one area in which I am obviously not well read.

Thanks to Mike Solli for the reference to War Fish. Any other recomendations for good reading on this topic?

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Post #: 36
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 1/25/2008 1:36:57 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr

Did Sub vs. Sub ever actually occur in WWII?


Yes it did. Read the book War Fish for an occurance.


If this is the book by Grider - it is/was my favorite first person account of sub wars (and i've read many).



(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 37
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 1/25/2008 1:51:37 PM   
String


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From: Estonia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauvequipeut

There was a fair few subs put down by other subs in both WWI and WWII.

British subs bagged 19 U-Boats in WWII, with American subs adding a further 2. The Royal Navy lost at least 3 subs to U-Boats.

In WWI British subs had accounted for 18 U-Boats, including some gained by using a variant of the Q-Ship principle - instead of arming the ship, it was shadowed by a sub. U-Boats claimed 5 British subs in return.

There were also sub-on-sub friendly fire losses - most famously the sinking of HMS Oxley by HMS Triton on 10 September 1939, which gained for the Oxley the unwanted distinction of being both the first British warship sunk in WWII and the first warship to be sunk by the British in WWII.

In the Pacific in WWII the US Navy lost at least one sub to a Japanese sub - the USS Corvina in 1943. US subs are credited with 19 Japanese subs, and the RN a further 2. That represents about 1/6th of Japanese WWII sub losses.

So...it did happen and should be represented, although as an occasional occurrence, not a wild-west style mid-ocean sub-on-sub shootout.


I assume that these were surface engagements between the subs. Or at least the targeted sub was on the surface. This is one area in which I am obviously not well read.

Thanks to Mike Solli for the reference to War Fish. Any other recomendations for good reading on this topic?


AFAIK there was one sub-surface sub sinking as well in ww2 with a british submarine bagging a u-boat.

(in reply to wwengr)
Post #: 38
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 1/25/2008 4:43:32 PM   
Panther Bait


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Status: offline 		I think there may also have been an IJN sub that was technically submerged when it was hit, but it had only just submerged.  The US sub may have even launched the torpedo while the target was still on the surface.  I'll try to confirm that.

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Post #: 39
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 1/25/2008 5:01:06 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panther Bait

I think there may also have been an IJN sub that was technically submerged when it was hit, but it had only just submerged. The US sub may have even launched the torpedo while the target was still on the surface. I'll try to confirm that.


There was one "confirmed" kill of an Ro-boat that was supposed to be submerged, however, later (i.e. relatively recent) post-war investigations did not bear it out (it was in the JANAC report, though)... the sub that was credited as being sunk was in port at the time awaiting scrapping.

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Post #: 40
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 1/25/2008 5:47:36 PM   
bobogoboom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I hold that if I can get a 1-for-1 sinking ratio of Jap SS to Allied ship, then I have done OK.  Allied ASW is just so terrible that you don't stand much of a chance.  This is how I use them:

1.  Glen I-Boats are used for heavy scouting purposes.  I also use them around major ports to spot Allied TF moving around.

2.  Ro are good point defense.  Use them to protect islands that I expect are going to be invaded or raided.

3.  Other SS are used to patrol major shipping lanes and/or highly congested areas.

I change nearly every Japanese SS Skipper at the start of the war to get more attacks and agression out of the vessels.


hmmmmm. Thanks for the pointers

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Post #: 41
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 1/25/2008 5:49:42 PM   
Q-Ball


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From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Interesting Responses, thank you. Most important, almost nobody has acheived a clean hit on an undamaged USN capital ship. The 2 damaging attacks on Saratoga, and the sinking of Wasp, are difficult to replicate. (not to mention the sinking of Yorktown, but she was severly damaged).

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 42
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 1/25/2008 6:03:10 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Interesting Responses, thank you. Most important, almost nobody has acheived a clean hit on an undamaged USN capital ship. The 2 damaging attacks on Saratoga, and the sinking of Wasp, are difficult to replicate. (not to mention the sinking of Yorktown, but she was severly damaged).


Overall, sub results in the game are MUCH less for both sides compared to the actual war -

No one i know of has come close (in WITP) to matching the actual USN record of sinking Japanese capital ships and cruisers with subs.

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 43
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 1/25/2008 6:05:03 PM   
bobogoboom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Interesting Responses, thank you. Most important, almost nobody has acheived a clean hit on an undamaged USN capital ship. The 2 damaging attacks on Saratoga, and the sinking of Wasp, are difficult to replicate. (not to mention the sinking of Yorktown, but she was severly damaged).


Yeah. I hit yorktown as it was trasiting back to port from a raid on kwajolan. i also hit hermes as it was leaving celyon and i also nailed dorsetshire as she was leaving cyleon and also one cl in my game against john.

also in my game against chicago dorsetshire was torpedoed and badly damaged by a ijn sub as it was in the middle of the ocean in a cvtf.

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Post #: 44
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 1/25/2008 6:38:19 PM   
Dixie


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From: UK
Status: offline 		Here is (as far as I am aware) the full list of RN sub vs sub kills, and those sank by Axis subs.

ROYAL NAVY SUB vs SUB KILLS
HMS Cachalot sank U-51 (GER)
HMS Rorqual sank Pier Capponi (ITA)
HMS Saracen sank U-335 (GER) & Granito (ITA)
HMS Satyr sank U-987 (GER)
HMS Shakespeare sank Valella (ITA)
HMS Sickle sank U-303 (GER)
HMS Sahib sank U-301
HMS Thunderbolt sank Capitano Tarantini (ITA)
HMS Tigris sank Michele Bianchi & Porfido (ITA)
HMS Torbay sank Jantina (ITA)
HMS Triumph sank Salpa (ITA)
HMS Tuna sank U-644 (GER)
HMS Thorn sank Medusa (ITA)
HMS Trooper sank Pietro Micca (ITA)
HMS Tally-Ho sank UIT-23 (GER)
HMS Tapir sank U-486 (GER)
HMS Taurus sank I-34 (JAP)
HMS Telemachus sank I-166 (JAP)
HMS Trenchant sank U-859 (GER)
HMS Truculent sank U-308 (GER)
HMS Unbeaten sank U-374 (GER) & Guglielmotti (ITA)
HMS Upholder sank Ammiraglio Saint Bon & Tricheco(ITA)
HMS Ultimatum sank Ammiraglio Millo (ITA)
HMS United sank Remo (ITA)
HMS Unruky sank Acciaio (ITA)
HMS Venturer sank U-771 & U-864 (GER)
HMS Parthian sank Diamante (ITA) & Souffleur (V.FRA)


ROYAL NAVY SUBS LOST vs AXIS SUBS
HMS Traid sunk by Enrico Totti (ITA)
HMS Spearfish sunk by U-34
HMS Thistle sunk by U-4
P615 sunk by U-123

Some subs, especially HMS Tigris engaged enemy subs on half a dozen or more occassions.

< Message edited by Dixie -- 1/25/2008 6:43:43 PM >

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RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 1/25/2008 6:46:15 PM   
Dixie


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Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
Status: offline 		And IJN subs sunk by other subs

I-4 sunk by USS Seadragon
I-162 sunk by USS Thresher
I-64 sunk by USS Triton
I-166 sunk by HMS Telemachus
I-168 sunk by USS scamp
I-73 sunk by USS Gudgeon
I-28 sunk by USS Tautog
I-29 sunk by USS Sawfish
I-34 sunk by HMS Taurus
I-183 sunk by USS Pogy
I-42 sunk by USS Tunny
I-43 sunk by USS Aspro
I-351 sunk by USS Bluefish
I-122 sunk by USS Skate
I-364 sunk by USS Sea Devil
I-365 sunk by USS Scabbardfish
I-371 sunk by USS Lagarto
I-373 sunk by USS Spikefish
RO-30 sunk by USS Tautog
RO-112 sunk by USS Batfish
RO-113 sunk by USS Batfish


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Post #: 46
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 1/25/2008 10:31:27 PM   
Darth Michalek

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		After performing proper recon (i.e. lurking for about 1 year) I decided to join the forums

I think there's probably 1 more IJN sub to add to USS Batfish kill list - officialy credited as I-41, could've been RO 115 though.

That would've been be quite a score - 3 subs sunk within 3 days

More info here http://www.ussbatfish.com/patrol-6.html
and here http://www.ussbatfish.com/whichsub.html


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Post #: 47
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 1/26/2008 1:07:54 AM   
Panther Bait


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Status: offline 		That was probably the one I was thinking of. I know it was something I read in Morrison's History of the USN, so it would have been written in the 40's/50's.

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Post #: 48
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 1/26/2008 1:29:49 AM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: darth_michalek

After performing proper recon (i.e. lurking for about 1 year) I decided to join the forums

I think there's probably 1 more IJN sub to add to USS Batfish kill list - officialy credited as I-41, could've been RO 115 though.

That would've been be quite a score - 3 subs sunk within 3 days

More info here http://www.ussbatfish.com/patrol-6.html
and here http://www.ussbatfish.com/whichsub.html


The claim is highly questionable according to Japanese Submarine Losses to Allied Submarines In World War II - by Vernon Miller page 35 - it was apparently a premature explosion.

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Post #: 49
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 1/26/2008 1:34:09 AM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline 		Same reference list I-174 probably sunk by USS Seahorse 20 April 1944.

EDIT: I-23 was sunk by Tautog on 26 April 1942 (p9)

REDIT: RO-49 was possibly sunk by USS Lagarto 24 Feb 1944
RO-46 was possibly sunk by USS Sea Owl 17 April 1944 (p41)


< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 1/26/2008 1:51:03 AM >

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RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 1/26/2008 1:57:23 AM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline 		OK - here is the list from the above reference sorted as to subs - a couple have been added and i've mentioned the ones that the author says didn't happen:

I-4 sunk by USS Seadragon p14
I-23 sunk by USS Tautog p9
I-28 sunk by USS Tautog p11
I-29 sunk by USS Sawfish p30
I-34 sunk by HMS Taurus p24
I-42 sunk by USS Tunny p26
I-43 sunk by USS Aspro p25
I-64 sunk by USS Triton p13
I-73 sunk by USS Gudgeon p7
I-122 sunk by USS Skate p43
I-162 sunk by USS Thresher - NOPE
I-166 sunk by HMS Telemachus p29
I-168 sunk by USS Scamp p21
I-174 sunk by USS Seahorse p27
I-183 sunk by USS Pogy p28
I-351 sunk by USS Bluefish p44
I-364 sunk by USS Sea Devil p34
I-365 sunk by USS Scabbardfish p35
I-371 sunk by USS Lagarto - NOPE
I-373 sunk by USS Spikefish p45
RO-30 sunk by USS Tautog - NOPE
RO-46 sunk by USS Sea Owl p41
RO-49 sunk by USS Lagarto p39
RO-112 sunk by USS Batfish p37
RO-113 sunk by USS Batfish p38

EDIT: notice that the sub sunk by Lagarto was apparently RO-49 not I-371.

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 1/26/2008 2:01:47 AM >

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Post #: 51
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 1/26/2008 10:35:02 AM   
Darth Michalek

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Not to steal the thread but...

Did Japanese subs had any success against Allied ones?

The only one I am aware of is the sinking of the Soviet L-16 by I-25 in Oct 42 approx. 500 miles west of Seattle. L-16 was being transfered along with L-15 from Russian Pacific Fleet to Northern Fleet. Intended route was Dutch Harbour, San Francisco, Panama Canal, Canada and the United Kingdom. However there were some Soviet claims (esp. during the Cold War period) that L-16 was actually sunk by USN S-class submarine.

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Post #: 52
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 1/26/2008 12:09:26 PM   
Dixie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: darth_michalek

Not to steal the thread but...

Did Japanese subs had any success against Allied ones?

The only one I am aware of is the sinking of the Soviet L-16 by I-25 in Oct 42 approx. 500 miles west of Seattle. L-16 was being transfered along with L-15 from Russian Pacific Fleet to Northern Fleet. Intended route was Dutch Harbour, San Francisco, Panama Canal, Canada and the United Kingdom. However there were some Soviet claims (esp. during the Cold War period) that L-16 was actually sunk by USN S-class submarine.


USS Kete was possibly sunk by RO-41
USS Corvina was sunk by I-176


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RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 1/26/2008 12:17:37 PM   
Yava


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

I've had reasonable success in my game with Yava. I don't have the specifics to hand, but IIRC despite several HK groups patrolling my usual patrol areas I've managed to sink a minelayer and several transports around the Pacific islands, and sank two AO between Hawaii and the US West Coast. I've lost one I-boat with a few more returning home for moderate damage. Success against warships has been limited to hitting damaged DDs so far.


Go on...

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Post #: 54
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 1/26/2008 1:47:25 PM   
wwengr


Posts: 678
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From: Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yava


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

I've had reasonable success in my game with Yava. I don't have the specifics to hand, but IIRC despite several HK groups patrolling my usual patrol areas I've managed to sink a minelayer and several transports around the Pacific islands, and sank two AO between Hawaii and the US West Coast. I've lost one I-boat with a few more returning home for moderate damage. Success against warships has been limited to hitting damaged DDs so far.


Go on...

The problem with sinkiing allied ships is that it helps the allied player. He has so many that there are too many decisions to make.

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Post #: 55
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 1/26/2008 2:13:04 PM   
Yava


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From: Poland/Kolobrzeg
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yava


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

I've had reasonable success in my game with Yava. I don't have the specifics to hand, but IIRC despite several HK groups patrolling my usual patrol areas I've managed to sink a minelayer and several transports around the Pacific islands, and sank two AO between Hawaii and the US West Coast. I've lost one I-boat with a few more returning home for moderate damage. Success against warships has been limited to hitting damaged DDs so far.


Go on...

The problem with sinkiing allied ships is that it helps the allied player. He has so many that there are too many decisions to make.


I was talking about the 'usual patrol areas'

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RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 1/30/2008 5:34:32 AM   
Q-Ball


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From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		OK, Last question on this. Does MANEUVER matter at all actually in Sub Combat?

The big IJN Cruiser subs have long range, and fairly fast, but are ungainly beasts, and many were withdrawn from service fairly quickly. The KDBs, on the other hand (I-173 and such), in game terms have shorter legs and are less useful, but are more nimble, and in actual fact were much more successful. Is this difference modelled in the game?

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Post #: 57
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 4/22/2008 1:27:15 AM   
Lecivius


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From: Denver
Status: offline 		I came across this as I fished for info, tips, and advice in my 1st PBEM...and I took the Jap side so I need ALL the help I can get.  Game is stock & patched.

Last night, Decmeber 13 1941, aproxximatly 240 miles ENE of Pearl, the I-15 put 4 (count em, 4) torpedos into the Lexington.  She didn't sink outright, and I have yet to get the turn from my opponent to see if she still floats.  None of the escorts so much as got off a depth charge.

I guess even a blind squirrel gets an ocasional acorn

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Post #: 58
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 4/22/2008 11:30:32 AM   
gladiatt


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauvequipeut

One thing I've never seen is a sub attacking another sub...does this ever happen in WitP?


No - i think they might try to put in in AE, though.


Did Sub vs. Sub ever actually occur in WWII?


As good is my memory, it occurs a few time, in Atlantic, and even less often in pacific, but it occurs. A old movie (of the 70's ??) is about a duel of a US sub versus a Jap sub, but i don't remenber the title. And it was about a true story.
Also read a book of "storys of WWII" talking of such a duel. But can't remenber the title also; sorry.
But i'm sure that it occured.

(in reply to wwengr)
Post #: 59
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War - 4/22/2008 11:32:12 AM   
gladiatt


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt


quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauvequipeut

One thing I've never seen is a sub attacking another sub...does this ever happen in WitP?


No - i think they might try to put in in AE, though.


Did Sub vs. Sub ever actually occur in WWII?


As good is my memory, it occurs a few time, in Atlantic, and even less often in pacific, but it occurs. A old movie (of the 70's ??) is about a duel of a US sub versus a Jap sub, but i don't remenber the title. And it was about a true story.
Also read a book of "storys of WWII" talking of such a duel. But can't remenber the title also; sorry.
But i'm sure that it occured.


Well, sorry, i should have read the other post, my post came a bit late and totally innefective

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