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RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter

 
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RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter - 2/24/2008 12:19:13 AM   
Historiker


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From: Deutschland
Status: offline 		And it's just 10/2/42...

With transfering fuel to Darwin and the Austrialian Eastcoast, I managed to transfer the Lexington into the DEI until January 1942, when he just had the mini-KB there. I attacked it and damaged all 4 light carriers heavily, but only Zuiho and Hosho sank. It seemed that the Lex will even get away, but he transfered G4M1, which finished her off...

In 2/42, I expected his operations in the Aleutians, so I sent my only two available CVs there, the Saratoga and the Yorktown. The encountered 4 enemy CVs. On the first day, the Sara was hit and sank while I sank the Akagi in exchange. The Yorktown was damaged and on fire, but as the fire level was low I expected her to be ready to fight the next day and sent her to the Kurils instead of fleeing. Two days later, she met the enemy Carriers again (I guess one was already damaged from the first encounter and damanged them all while she was sunk, As no enemy carrier sank I expected to have lost the battle, but a week later, both Soryu and Zukaku sank just off Tokyo withon two days.

The last encounter was in 8 or 9 42, when I attacked the occupied Line Islands. He sank the Nassau and the Wasp, I sent the Unyu and the Hiyo to the bottom :)


So you can even sink enemy carriers with only Buffalos and Groups not at full strength on board - I didn't get enough supplies for the Lexington to upgrade or just to reinforce her groups...




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Post #: 31
RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter - 2/24/2008 12:32:23 AM   
witpqs


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From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Was only answering your question re 'why should it break up attacks?'.

In and of itself it's a very sportsmanlike tactical choice. In fact the Allies basically have to do it in 1942 to avoid strike coordination penalties (it's even in the manual).

PzH's question is valid because of the CAP issue - 1) the entire CAP acts as one which is unrealistic, and 2) the much-hated Uber-CAP problem.

For those reasons as Allies I would not split CV's out that way later in the game. Single CV TF's that happen to get together in a hex, yes, but not on purpose when in reality there would have been TF's with (pick a number) 3 or 4 CV's each.

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Post #: 32
RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter - 2/24/2008 12:24:54 PM   
Hortlund


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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

why should it break up Japanese attacks? Most times you see one big strike on one CV Tf that then gets annihilated.


Why should it break up Japanese attacks? Because the strike can only hit one TF.

That big strike is a threat to its target. If you split up your CVs, only one CV is ever in risk of getting damaged or sunk. Meanwhile all CVs will contribute to the defensive CAP. Meaning that after the big strike, at best you have sunk one enemy CV, while there will be 2-3-4 undamaged ones.



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Post #: 33
RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter - 2/24/2008 2:38:15 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

why should it break up Japanese attacks? Most times you see one big strike on one CV Tf that then gets annihilated.


Why should it break up Japanese attacks? Because the strike can only hit one TF.

That big strike is a threat to its target. If you split up your CVs, only one CV is ever in risk of getting damaged or sunk. Meanwhile all CVs will contribute to the defensive CAP. Meaning that after the big strike, at best you have sunk one enemy CV, while there will be 2-3-4 undamaged ones.



break up means more than one strike. If you have 28 TFs then the strikes are broken up into small bits of strikes while if you have one strike your strikes arenīt broken up. Letīs speak about our game: you had 50 Zeroes and 29 Betties and all attacked one TF (even though there were 3). No other strikes launched... break up would mean 50 Zeroes and 29 Betties divided into three strikes and all get annihilated. Donīt know what you are up to. One time you think itīs super to have 28 TFs in a port hex, the next time you think itīs bad to have 3 CV TFs on the open sea. Broken up strikes are what we saw in that 28 TF turn... It seems you just want to one time so and the other time different, but both times you want to see it working in your favour.

If someone has no stacking limits for seabased aircraft and puts 12 single CV TFs into a hex, I find it extremely gamey, no question about that. This is where Iīm again thinking about just too many TFs. If there are no stacking limits, how should he put 12 CVs in one TF though? 12 CVs 2 BBs and 11 DDs? I guess it should be possible to provide each CV with apropriate escorts - while I donīt know how the ratio was in real life.

What Iīm doing (as the Allied) in our game is to create 3 TFs and all suffer from a coordination penalty (that is BS, think you know that anyway but thatīs another thing that is okay for you?) and every CV TF has 2 or 3 CVs (until I reach the max number of aircraft allowed). As the Japanese I put all CVs into one TF as I want damaged, not sunk CVs.

Again we are at the same discussion, you think itīs okay to have 28 TFs in a hex while I think itīs gaming the engine (especially if all those TFs sitting next to each other in a port). I think itīs okay to have 3 CV TFs while you think itīs gamey...



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RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter - 2/24/2008 3:17:44 PM   
Hortlund


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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy
break up means more than one strike.


Ok, so that is what break up means. However, if we try to leave the semantics discussion and focus on the topic. The problem is that one strike can only hit one TF.

And if I repeat what I said, that big strike is a threat to its target. If you split up your CVs, only one CV is ever in risk of getting damaged or sunk. Meanwhile all CVs will contribute to the defensive CAP. Meaning that after the big strike, at best you have sunk one enemy CV, while there will be 2-3-4 undamaged ones.

In effect it means that a player can create untouchable CVs, by putting them in single CV-TFs and move them around in a stack. And my question is why that would not be considered a gamey exploit of the game engine.

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Post #: 35
RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter - 2/24/2008 3:31:51 PM   
jwilkerson


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From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Allowing players the choice of concentrating versus dispersing their ships is certainly valid. In real life the trade off is offensive strike concentration versus defensive vulnerability. So as with with debate about breaking up the merchant ships TFs, this is just another chip off that same block.


In CPT Wayne P. Hughes most excellent tome "Fleet Tactics", he breaks this down for us nicely.

His key principle is "Stike effectively First".


For carrier fleets, in real life, the advantage of being concentrated is that all the strike planes can form up and head towards the target together (to strike most effectively). The downside of concentration is that if your fleet cannot defeat the first enemy strike, then you are vulnerable to being massively defeated (as the Japanese were at Midway).

On the flip side, dispersal means that you are using the "defensive split" tactic, spreading your fleet out so that it is harder to attack and find all the components, of course this, in real life, means that it is harder to launch and form up your strike into one package, so you give up your maximum strike capability to assist in preserving your fleet.

===

of course real life and the game differ some what.


The game rule attempting to penalize US Carriers in 1941-43 for operating in one task force, gives way to the tactic of putting each CV in a separate task force and using "follow me". This totally defeats the oroginal intent as now as long as all these single ship task forces are at the SAME RANGE from the enemy, they will form up and hit together.

On the Japanese side, if there is enough uber cap and AAA to totally defeat and incomming US attack them one uber TF works. Same is true for the Americans once you reach 1944.

But the Japanese also have the option of splitting up their TFs and running them together in the same hex. The Americans have no monopoly on the use of this tactic. They are just "encouraged" (or forced) to use it due to the strike coordination penalty.




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Post #: 36
RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter - 2/24/2008 3:50:49 PM   
Hortlund


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
The game rule attempting to penalize US Carriers in 1941-43 for operating in one task force, gives way to the tactic of putting each CV in a separate task force and using "follow me". This totally defeats the oroginal intent as now as long as all these single ship task forces are at the SAME RANGE from the enemy, they will form up and hit together.


Well, there you have it really. The game was designed to penalize US Carriers in 41-43, therefore we have those rules. The player can overcome this by stacking his CVs in single CV-TFs. Not only do they avoid the penalties, they also benefit from the CAP, and they benefit from having some of their CVs "untouchable".

That pretty much closes the book on the gameyness-issue.



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Post #: 37
RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter - 2/24/2008 5:09:10 PM   
jwilkerson


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Status: offline 		I certainly encourage players to explore the necessity of house rules for such as splitting up TFs, whether merchant or carrier (or PT or otherwise).


Moses and I had at least one rule against multiple single ship combat task forces in one hex (I had a player put 50 single ship PT boat TFs in one hex and wanted to avoid that). But I actually encouraged him (unsuccesssfully) to split his Allied carriers up into multiple TF to avoid the strike penalty. Many players think the Japanese carriers are too strong in 42 vis-a-vis the Allies - vis-a-vis real life. Allowing the Allies to split up their TFs can offset this perceived Japanese advantage. But again, each pairing of players is unique, and what works for one pair doesn't necessarily work for all. But these topics should be discussed in an environment of give and take. WITP is a long game. Both sides will need help from each other to make it.



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RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter - 2/24/2008 5:13:04 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
The game rule attempting to penalize US Carriers in 1941-43 for operating in one task force, gives way to the tactic of putting each CV in a separate task force and using "follow me". This totally defeats the oroginal intent as now as long as all these single ship task forces are at the SAME RANGE from the enemy, they will form up and hit together.


Well, there you have it really. The game was designed to penalize US Carriers in 41-43, therefore we have those rules. The player can overcome this by stacking his CVs in single CV-TFs. Not only do they avoid the penalties, they also benefit from the CAP, and they benefit from having some of their CVs "untouchable".

That pretty much closes the book on the gameyness-issue.




so in your opinion the Japanese should be able to launch coordinated strikes up to 450 aircraft in 43 but the Allied were not being able to do that? Okay, that does cloes the gameyness-issue in every case... If so, then I would guess none of the both were able to do that. The problem in the game is that we see all strikes of the am or pm phase together.

and nevertheless once again I want to point out that it is NOT the same if a player puts 3,5 or 6 TFs into one hex like it would be if there are 28 TFs. If that issue isnīt clear for you so far, please contact someone who can clearly explain the code for you.


< Message edited by castor troy -- 2/24/2008 5:15:31 PM >

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RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter - 2/24/2008 5:19:38 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		I'd like to know who explained the code to you...

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RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter - 2/24/2008 5:20:34 PM   
jwilkerson


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Status: offline 		Alright, alright, I wasn't trying to cause trouble .. especially between the players.

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Post #: 41
RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter - 2/24/2008 5:23:47 PM   
jwilkerson


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From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Let's just say the set of house rules I use when playing with Nik, for instance, is very different from the set of house rules I use when playing with Moses. And I'm fine with that, and I think they are fine with that.

A work-able set of house rules is a function of the player set in that game.

Castor and PzH need to decide what works for them. If Joe and Termy play then likewise we'd have our own set too. Nothing wrong with that in my book.


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RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter - 2/24/2008 5:40:15 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I'd like to know who explained the code to you...





< Message edited by castor troy -- 2/24/2008 5:50:39 PM >

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RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter - 2/24/2008 7:23:28 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline 		Am I wrong , or was there a statement mad by Matrix a few weeks ago about Personnal attacks? 

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RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter - 2/24/2008 7:29:38 PM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Am I wrong , or was there a statement mad by Matrix a few weeks ago about Personnal attacks? 


:D:D You mean a statement by the Mad-Matrix-MOD???

I think we're cool here.



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RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter - 2/24/2008 7:33:11 PM   
AW1Steve


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Status: offline 		Good. I was not trying to be critical , just a gentle reminder....so often these discussions go off the rails with minor comments that might seem personal.

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RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter - 2/24/2008 7:56:54 PM   
Coach Z

 

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Status: offline 		Hit the other Guy 1st and and sink or heavily damage all his carriers in your 1st strike!
100% Guaranteed Victory!


Felt we needed a little levity!

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RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter - 2/24/2008 8:04:40 PM   
Coach Z

 

Posts: 576
Joined: 7/31/2007
From: New York
Status: offline 		The two biggest causes of victory in Carrier Duels seem to be to me are:
#1 Not being spotted by your opponent and failing that
#2 Striking 1st
 
What I mean by not being spottted by your opponent is a combination of not being spotted in days/turns previous to the Carrier Duel while you have already spotted his CV TF, as well as not being spotted that day/turn. If your opponent hasn't spotted your CVs in the area he might have some of his Attack planes on ground Combat missions (supporting an invasion), or a low % set to Naval Search, or his CAP/Escort ratios might be inappropriately set.
If he doesn't spot you onthat day/turn, well then he's screwed cause then he might get smacked down hard with no retribution.

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RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter - 2/24/2008 10:02:08 PM   
Barb


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From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		There are two different things that should be changed in the game:
1. Target related air strikes. When multiple Task forces are under the same CAP, there should be one strike to penetrate the CAP. Then it should split to attack diferent TFs. So Hex Targeted strikes should be combinet into one to penetrate enemy CAP, and after that it should be divided to attack targets set.

2. Strike - coordination penalty. Should be removed when strike will target Hex.


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RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter - 2/25/2008 12:17:28 AM   
racndoc


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From: Newport Coast, California
Status: offline 		Getting back to the original poster's question, it all depends on what mod your are playing, what side you are playing, and what year of the war it is.

Unfortunately A2A combat is subject to the Laws of large numbers in this game...as many other aspects of the game are. I actually completed a stock scenario 15 game as the Allies that went to 1/1/45.....only 1 CV was lost by either side during the ENTIRE war due to the Death Star /Uber Cap/Black Hole phenomonen. In stock, it seems that once you start flying more than 250 fighters on CAP nothing gets through. In CV vs CV combat, ALL the defensive CAP flys while the attackers, no matter how numerous, come in fragmented. Japan has a monopoly on the Black Hole until 7/42, then its MAD(mutually assured destruction) until 7/43. Once the Hellcats show up the Allies have a monopoly on the Death Star until the end of the war.

Whether I play as Japan or the Allies, I look at what my opponent is doing and respond accordingly. If Im playing the Allies and Japan has 8CVs and 2 CVLs combined to form a Death Star, then I will use all the USN CVs and the RN CVs in single CV TFs in one hex during 1942. If my opponent splits up his CVs around the map then I will follow suit. In 1943, as the Allied strike coodination rules become less restrictive I will begin to group 2 CVs together in 1 TF and in 1944 2 CVs and a CVL in a TF.

When playing stock, Id really recommend a limit on CAP...say 60% and then most of the Black Hole effects go away. In the Nik Mods....you get a lot of leakers so in Niks words"the best defense is a good offense"...ie make sure that your bombers get through.

Obviously, 1942 presents the greatest danger to the Allies since Japan can operate at least 6 CVs in the same TF and coodinate attacks while the Allies have severe coodination problems.

My suggestions for the Allies in 1942:

1) Use single CV TFs with one BB in each TF
2)In your lowest numbered TF, place one CV(I like to use CV Wasp because CV Wasp II is a much better CV) plus CVE Long Island plus 2 BBs.....will suck in most of the Japanese airstrikes....plus it will be a slow TF and all your other CV TFs can easily keep up.
3)In your next lowest numbered CV TFs place CV Saratoga and CV Lexington...they have high durability and are fairly resistant to Vals. Alternatively, place an extra BB with Lex and Sara if you want to make sure they are preferentially targeted.


For playing as either Japan or the Allies:

1)Try to create a battlefield for the carrier exchange where you can add in land based air strikes to use up the ammo of the opponents CAP as well as attrition their fighters.

Try create a battlefield for the carrier exchange where you have a friendly port nearby with ARs and Naval HQs

Before entering combat, get EVERY upgrade you can for all your ships as soon as they are available. The more AA you have the better off you are.

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Post #: 50
RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter - 2/25/2008 1:11:23 AM   
Zebedee


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Status: offline 		I haven't played PBEM yet but I would have thought that separating your dive bombers and your torpedo bomber altitudes would play havoc with CAP.

As IJN try flying the Vals in at 18000+ and the Kates in at 3000 - 5000. Seems to split the Allied CAP most delightfully while getting full 9 divebombers (which can wound but not sink) attack and also getting more chance of putting torpedoes into CVs (low flying so only 4 attack at a time).

Works in practice. But never tried it in anger yet (Artificial Idiot doesn't count, does it?).

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