Slitherine

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Most here can, but some can't. I wish I could let such discussions go and trust that everyone would remain civil and rational. Due to past experience, we now keep discussions focused on the past and try to stay away from current politics, religion, etc. Keep in mind that what seems impersonal to you may be personal to someone else (perhaps one of their ancestors was involved) so controversial topics, especially those that involve as much passion as this one, must be approached carefully here.

It's important to keep in mind that these boards serve as a place for our customers to share their interests, not as a place for one customer to upset another. Remember, we're here to sell games, not alienate people. There are a lot of other places where discussions are no-holds-barred, this isn't one of 'em. We want all customers to feel welcome here. While it's true that some people need a thicker skin and we'll allow a certain amount of latitude, we have become pretty cautious about letting things go.

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ORIGINAL: Ike99

Imagine this for a moment. Truman tells McArthur..

...pass along to the Japanese, we will break our aggreement of no seperate peace with the communist, accept their surrender with the Emporer condition as soon as the Germans surrender. This is done.

There is no Iwo Jima
There is no Okinawa
No Hiroshima
No Nagasaki
No Korean War
China probably doesn´t go Communist
Possibly no Vietnam

You see? I just won WW2. Saved a lot of lives and stuck it to Uncle Joe all at the same time. Still came out smelling like a flower.

That´s why all this came out again in Korea when McArthur and Truman had their dust up. I´m sure McArthur threw it up in Trumans face they wouldn´t even be fighting Korea if he had just accepted Japanese surrender back in 44´.

Bad call.

After 16 years, Civ II still has me in it's clutches LOL!!!
Now CIV IV has me in it's evil clutches!

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ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

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ORIGINAL: Ike99

Imagine this for a moment. Truman tells McArthur..

...pass along to the Japanese, we will break our aggreement of no seperate peace with the communist, accept their surrender with the Emporer condition as soon as the Germans surrender. This is done.

There is no Iwo Jima
There is no Okinawa
No Hiroshima
No Nagasaki
No Korean War
China probably doesn´t go Communist
Possibly no Vietnam

You see? I just won WW2. Saved a lot of lives and stuck it to Uncle Joe all at the same time. Still came out smelling like a flower.

That´s why all this came out again in Korea when McArthur and Truman had their dust up. I´m sure McArthur threw it up in Trumans face they wouldn´t even be fighting Korea if he had just accepted Japanese surrender back in 44´.

Bad call.

I'm confused. I thought the Japanese were fighting to the last man and gave up in 45 because of the A bombs.
Did the Japanese really offer to surrender in 44? Can someone set me straight?

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ORIGINAL: IronDuke


Well, in a probably vain attempt to drag back to topic, I would have to say that the Allied bombing campaign of Germany (unfortunately, I can't speak with any knowledge of the PTO) was absolutely pivotal to the Allied victory.

Suggesting that the German production figures went up anyway misses the point completely, that they didn't go up by much. Before total war was called and the economy fully mobilised, the Germans were not even running plants at three shifts per day. There was slack in the system and it was bombing's achievement that industrial expansion and that slack only amounted to the increases that it did.

Secondly, the bombing of cities had a number of deadly effects over and above deaths among war workers. To begin with, the Allies essentially dismantled the German transportation system in 1944/45. In 1945, factories were liberated in Germany that still had full tank parks, the vehicles immobilised because trains were hardly running. All train lines led through cities. The destruction of the cities fouled mile after mile of track at strategic points (rail lines generally met and intersected at Cities) with rubble. The marshalling yards inside cities were destroyed, engines blown up and repair facilities crippled. Simply turning engines around was difficult.

At it's height, over 1 million personnel (a number of who'm could have fought at the front) were deployed manning flak defences. Over 55000 anti aircraft pieces were deployed to defend the Reich. Many were of 88 calibre and if not shooting at Allied bombers would have been taking down Allied tanks at the front. Thousands of tonnes of concrete and other raw materials created shelters and flak towers.

Production suffered as much through the crippling of the railways as it did through direct bombing. Towards the end, entire factories sat idle because the railways could not get supplies of raw materials to them to produce their weapons, nor take the completed kit away.

Finally, the bombing forced the Germans to deploy hundreds of fighters on home soil, effectively ceding control of the air just about everywhere else. More importantly, this fighter force was decimated when the P-51 arrived in large numbers and began escorting the bombers. Over several months, the Luftwaffe was chooped to pieces in a series of gruelling attritional battles. With their losse high, their aircraft often sabotaged by foreign workers and their oil plants and railways bombed to the point that fuel was in short supply and replacement pilots could not be given much air time, the Luftwaffe was knocked out of the war.

All of this was a direct result of the Allied bomber offensive. We can call it immoral, we can deplore the killing of civilians, but we shouldn't lose sight of its pivotal role in the defeat of Nazi Germany.

regards,
IronDuke

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I'm confused. I thought the Japanese were fighting to the last man and gave up in 45 because of the A bombs.

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ORIGINAL: Ike99

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I'm confused. I thought the Japanese were fighting to the last man and gave up in 45 because of the A bombs.

BARE PEACE BID U. S. REBUFFED 7 MONTHS AGO
Chicago Daily Tribune
Aug 19, 1945

¨Release of censorship restrictions in the United States makes it possible to announce that Japan's first peace bid was relayed to the White House seven months ago....¨


Wiki
¨These proposals, sent through both British and American channels were assembled by General Douglas MacArthur into a 40-page dossier and given to President Roosevelt on the 2nd of February, two days before the Yalta conference. The dossier was reportedly dismissed by Roosevelt out of hand - the proposals contained all had the condition that Emperor's position would be assured, albeit possibly as a puppet ruler. At this time, however, the Allied policy was to accept only an unconditional offer of surrender, although the eventual August settlement did keep the position of emperor in place.¨

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ORIGINAL: sulla05

The Japanese had no alternative in their minds. The Allies had shut off all imports in 1940-41. Japan is a rock that has no natural resources. by cutting of all oil and steel etc. They would have been unable to defend themselves if attacked. Any nation put in that position would have chosen war.

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ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

The Japanese had already chosen war when the oil and steel imports were cut off. The embargo was emplaced to encourage the Japanese to end that war. They did have a choice - they just didn't like the other choice. No one forced them to make the decision to go to war with the allies, they made that decision all on their own.

As far as the claim of a peqce proposal being sent to MAcArthur in February 1945 is concerned - that was not an official proposal from the Japanese government but rather a feeler by one of hte junior ministers. The lack of official backing is made plain by the next paragraph of the very wikipaedia article that you quoted:
"In February 1945, Prince Fumimaro Konoe gave to Emperor Hirohito a memorandum about his analysis of the situation and told him that if the war continued, the Imperial house might be in greater danger from an internal revolution than from defeat.[6] According to the diary of Grand Chamberlain Hisanori Fujita, the Emperor, looking for a tennozan, replied that it was premature to seek peace, "unless we make one more military gain".[7]"

So once again you seek to blame the US government for decisions made by the Japanese government.

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ORIGINAL: sulla05

You are putting a moral ethic on a countrys policy decision. Their is no moral right and wrong when the future of your nation is at stake.

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Le May appears to have shifted much of focus from reasonably precise raids against clearly military related targets to area fire-bombing of cities. His tactical motive appears to have been that Japanese interceptors and AA were becoming too effective for daylight, precision raids to continue. There seems likely to have been a motive to punish the Japanese too.

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Once enemy defenses made aircraft losses from reasonably precise daylight raids too costly, planners were forced to change to area targets or leave the bombers on the ground.

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ORIGINAL: sulla05

To say that only the Western nations and the US could have colonies and exploit them but no other nation could is ridiculous. Of course the other nations that were forcibly kept out of the colonial grab would be nothing but jealous and harbor a deep grudge. Which is exactly what happened.

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ORIGINAL: sulla05
"So that makes it right? Did the allies also make them force women into prostitution and sexual slavery for Japanese military brothels?

I guess that was all about the oil too. Stupid, evil, allies! "

You are putting a moral ethic on a countrys policy decision. Their is no moral right and wrong when the future of your nation is at stake.

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ORIGINAL: sulla05
Again before this is taken out of context I'm not making a judgement call or trying to compare any nations morally to other nations.

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ORIGINAL: sulla05
"I certainly don't condone and am horrified by what the Japanese did. But, I'm equally disgusted by what the Belgians and so many others did also. I know that there are plenty of people that would be on trial in the Hague, and yes some would be US citizens for actions done in the early part of this century and the last going on down the line. I also believe that the Emperor was neck deep in all that Japan did and he should have been in a war trial"

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ORIGINAL: sulla05

The western European powers and the US made the Japanese change the treaty with Russia in 1905 to take away most of the concessions that Russia was going to agree to. This was especially hard in Japanese eyes because of the tremendous sacrifice the nation had endured in the war. The US being a part of this was considered a stab in the back, because all through the war we were one of the few major powers who seemed on their side. They were continually trying to get concessions in China as had all the other powers but were always limited by joint action by the other nations.

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They also felt that rhey were perfectly in the right to make the " 21 demands " on China after WW1. When the other powers ganged up on them ( in their eyes ) and made them give up their demands again they felt like a second rate country to the others.

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The naval treaties of the 20's and 30's saw them become more and more angry because they felt they were being treated not as a great nation ( as they saw themselves ) but as a second rater.

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The Japanese had already chosen war when the oil and steel imports were cut off. The embargo was emplaced to encourage the Japanese to end that war.