RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B

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RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 2/29/2008 6:42:53 PM

Marauders

Posts: 4428
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From: Minnesota
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quote:

There is competition out there in Unix, Linux, Apple. Just because people choose MS despite that does not make them a monopoly.

That is a very simplistic view of reality, as it does not take into account market share or the inelasticity of a market for a product that is required to run the computer.

(in reply to ORANGE)

Post #: 31

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 2/29/2008 7:45:15 PM

ORANGE

Posts: 198
Joined: 12/3/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders

quote:

There is competition out there in Unix, Linux, Apple. Just because people choose MS despite that does not make them a monopoly.

That is a very simplistic view of reality, as it does not take into account market share or the inelasticity of a market for a product that is required to run the computer.

Maybe the EU could force a certain percent of the population to run Linux, then a certain percent to run Mac OS and others to run Windows? They could even throw in DOS.

I do not live in Europe. Do they also fine good looking girls for getting more date offers or make the men go out with the ugly ones?

< Message edited by ORANGE -- 2/29/2008 7:46:09 PM >

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(in reply to Marauders)

Post #: 32

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 2/29/2008 7:58:07 PM

Zakhal

Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyv�skyl�, Finland
Status: offline

This is great news. Monopolies are bad.

_____________________________

"99.9% of all internet arguments are due to people not understanding someone else's point. The other 0.1% is arguing over made up statistics."- unknown poster
"Those who dont read history are destined to repeat it."� Edmund Burke

(in reply to ORANGE)

Post #: 33

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 2/29/2008 8:39:56 PM

Peter Fisla

Posts: 2503
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
Status: offline

Vista is so bad that even big managers at MS are speaking up:

http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/08/02/28/1746211.shtml

click on the "more extensive email exchange" and read the MS internal emails PDF lots of juice there :)

You can also read the smaller scale version of the emails here:

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/microsoft/archives/132891.asp

< Message edited by Peter Fisla -- 2/29/2008 8:41:19 PM >

(in reply to Zakhal)

Post #: 34

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 2/29/2008 8:55:48 PM

ORANGE

Posts: 198
Joined: 12/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

Vista is so bad that even big managers at MS are speaking up:

http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/08/02/28/1746211.shtml

click on the "more extensive email exchange" and read the MS internal emails PDF lots of juice there :)

You can also read the smaller scale version of the emails here:

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/microsoft/archives/132891.asp

If Vista is so bad is this not good news for MS competitors?

Really the fact that the government has to get involved because MS operating systems are so good has to say something.

_____________________________

(in reply to Peter Fisla)

Post #: 35

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 3/3/2008 7:07:20 AM

Marauders

Posts: 4428
Joined: 3/17/2005
From: Minnesota
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I don't want Vista to be bad. I want it to be a good product at a fair price set by a competative market.

I am Jeffersonian in my approach to monopolies. Thomas Jefferson equated the right to be free of unrestricted monopolies as a right of man just as the freedoms of speech, religion, and press.

quote:

I do not like... the omission of a bill of rights providing clearly and without the aid of sophisms for freedom of religion, freedom of the press, protection against standing armies, restriction against monopolies, the eternal and unremitting force of the habeas corpus laws, and trials by jury in all matters of fact triable by the laws of the land...

Thomas Jefferson to James Madison: Dec. 20, 1787.

(in reply to ORANGE)

Post #: 36

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 3/3/2008 7:21:37 PM

ORANGE

Posts: 198
Joined: 12/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders

I don't want Vista to be bad. I want it to be a good product at a fair price set by a competative market.

I am Jeffersonian in my approach to monopolies. Thomas Jefferson equated the right to be free of unrestricted monopolies as a right of man just as the freedoms of speech, religion, and press.

quote:

I do not like... the omission of a bill of rights providing clearly and without the aid of sophisms for freedom of religion, freedom of the press, protection against standing armies, restriction against monopolies, the eternal and unremitting force of the habeas corpus laws, and trials by jury in all matters of fact triable by the laws of the land...

Thomas Jefferson to James Madison: Dec. 20, 1787.

quote:

I do not like... the omission of a bill of rights providing clearly and without the aid of sophisms for freedom of religion, freedom of the press, protection against standing armies, restriction against monopolies, the eternal and unremitting force of the habeas corpus laws, and trials by jury in all matters of fact triable by the laws of the land...

Thomas Jefferson to James Madison: Dec. 20, 1787.

Is not the market competitive? You have Apple and Linux competing with MS.

_____________________________

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Post #: 37

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 3/3/2008 7:58:46 PM

Marauders

Posts: 4428
Joined: 3/17/2005
From: Minnesota
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quote:

Is not the market competitive? You have Apple and Linux competing with MS.

The market is not competative.

Try to purchase a PC that is not an Apple product and see if any of them come with Linux or Leopard.

(in reply to ORANGE)

Post #: 38

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 3/3/2008 9:14:28 PM

David Winter

Posts: 5158
Joined: 11/24/2004
From: Vancouver, BC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders

quote:

Is not the market competitive? You have Apple and Linux competing with MS.

The market is not competative.

Try to purchase a PC that is not an Apple product and see if any of them come with Linux or Leopard.

Leopard is Apple. http://www.apple.com/macosx/

There are several computer stores in my local area that will install whatever OS you like on the system you buy.

Can you do it from the Best Buy's of the world?? Depends on the individual store and whether or not they have staff that can do it. For the most part it's not cost effective. And not even because of the software. Heck Linux is free. The cost comes from having to pay staff that is familiar with these fringe OS'. If someone can get Linux up and running, they're probably worth more than what Best Buy can afford to pay. It also means that you probably void whatever waranty for support you would normally get. That has nothing to do with a microsoft monopoly. That again has to do with companies like Best Buy, or Futureshop, or most other major computer stores not having the staff to be able to deal with it.

The market is as competitive as the consumers want it to be.

(in reply to Marauders)

Post #: 39

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 3/3/2008 10:10:41 PM

Marauders

Posts: 4428
Joined: 3/17/2005
From: Minnesota
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quote:

Leopard is Apple.

I am well aware of this; that is why I asked to try to purchase a computer that is not an Apple product ....

quote:

There are several computer stores in my local area that will install whatever OS you like on the system you buy.

I can go into a custom PC shop to have Linux put on.� If you believe that is what regular computer purchasers do, you are mistaken.� I also doubt that they will be able to put Leopard on a custom built PC even if I wanted them to.

quote:

The market is as competitive as the consumers want it to be.

Actually, that is not often the case.� Consumers want competition, choices, and the market dynamic.� They often get one electric company, one cable company, one local hospital, one local gas price, and one default operating system.

It is no wonder that many of the world's wealthiest people have gained that wealth�through monopolies, scarce resource control, market manipulation, or usery.

That is why consumers elect officials to create anti-trust laws and regulation.

Even in the case of your game, do consumer who make the choice not to upgrade the OS have the ability to play the game? No, they do not. The control of the OS forces developers to upgrade which forces consumers to upgrade if they like it or not. In the end we are all forced to upgrade. The difference between you and I is that you like it and I do not.

quote:

A monopoly granted either to an individual or to a trading company has the same effect as a secret in trade or manufactures. The monopolists, by keeping the market constantly understocked, by never fully supplying the effectual demand, sell their commodities much above the natural price, and raise their emoluments, whether they consist in wages or profit, greatly above their natural rate.

Adam Smith - The Wealth of Nations, Vol I, Chapter 7

When the market is inelastic, the monopoly can raise prices above their natural state and not have to withhold product from the market. The monopoly can also be used to force consumers to purchase other products that the corporation offers creating greater market share, and in some cases, another defacto monopoly.

< Message edited by Marauders -- 3/3/2008 10:25:43 PM >

(in reply to David Winter)

Post #: 40

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 3/3/2008 10:31:53 PM

David Winter

Posts: 5158
Joined: 11/24/2004
From: Vancouver, BC
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quote:

The difference between you and I is that you like it and I do not.

I don't "like it".. I just don't "dislike it". And the reason for that subtle difference is that I understand the inner workings of why these upgrades are required. I don't like the fact that someone in a microsoft office someplace 300km away makes a decision that means I have to rewrite chuncks of my own game. But I understand their decision making process. I know why the decision was made. And as much as it pains me to make the short term changes, long term I'm able to keep up with the newer technologies.

quote:

I also doubt that they will be able to put Leopard on a custom built PC even if I wanted them to.

Sounds like you need to take up the fight against Apple then. It seems like they're monopolizing their own software so it only works on overly expensive hardware of their own creation.

< Message edited by David Winter -- 3/3/2008 10:46:18 PM >

(in reply to Marauders)

Post #: 41

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 3/3/2008 10:38:38 PM

anarchyintheuk

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Does the EU have any plans for this cash or has it already been 'spent'?

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Post #: 42

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 3/4/2008 12:54:25 AM

ORANGE

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Joined: 12/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders
I am well aware of this; that is why I asked to try to purchase a computer that is not an Apple product ....

You can buy a workstation from Sun. Google released a PC without Windows or MAC OS. It sold at Walmart. It was linux based IIRC. IBM has tried to sell them in the past among others.

You can buy a Mac.

You can also build your own PC and put on it whatever operating system you wish.

Seems like a lot of choice to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders
I can go into a custom PC shop to have Linux put on. If you believe that is what regular computer purchasers do, you are mistaken. I also doubt that they will be able to put Leopard on a custom built PC even if I wanted them to.

Is that Microsofts fault?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders
Actually, that is not often the case. Consumers want competition, choices, and the market dynamic. They often get one electric company, one cable company, one local hospital, one local gas price, and one default operating system.

Consumers are welcome to have competition.

As for the one local gas price bit I am not sure where you are from but it seems there are many gas prices in my area.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders
It is no wonder that many of the world's wealthiest people have gained that wealth through monopolies, scarce resource control, market manipulation, or usery.

Well this is not the place to debate this. I cannot help it if you are unhappy with the way the world actually works.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders
That is why consumers elect officials to create anti-trust laws and regulation.

Just because people do it does not make it right.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders
Even in the case of your game, do consumer who make the choice not to upgrade the OS have the ability to play the game? No, they do not. The control of the OS forces developers to upgrade which forces consumers to upgrade if they like it or not. In the end we are all forced to upgrade. The difference between you and I is that you like it and I do not.

So take your ball and go home or change it by developing a system that you do like. Compete. Maybe there are reasons you do not see that people upgrade.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders
When the market is inelastic, the monopoly can raise prices above their natural state and not have to withhold product from the market. The monopoly can also be used to force consumers to purchase other products that the corporation offers creating greater market share, and in some cases, another defacto monopoly.

What does this have to do with Microsoft? You can by an Apple, Linux or Unix computer. You can even build your own PC and load an older OS or make your own.

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Post #: 43

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 3/4/2008 2:54:19 AM

Marauders

Posts: 4428
Joined: 3/17/2005
From: Minnesota
Status: offline

quote:

You can buy a workstation from Sun. Google released a PC without Windows or MAC OS. It sold at Walmart. It was linux based IIRC. IBM has tried to sell them in the past among others.

You can buy a Mac.� You can also build your own PC and put on it whatever operating system you wish.

Seems like a lot of choice to me.

Once an item like the OS becomes a standard, the majority of software�is written for it.� There aren't really other choices for gamers.

< Message edited by Marauders -- 3/4/2008 3:18:38 AM >

(in reply to ORANGE)

Post #: 44

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 3/4/2008 6:46:54 PM

ORANGE

Posts: 198
Joined: 12/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders

quote:

You can buy a workstation from Sun. Google released a PC without Windows or MAC OS. It sold at Walmart. It was linux based IIRC. IBM has tried to sell them in the past among others.

You can buy a Mac. You can also build your own PC and put on it whatever operating system you wish.

Seems like a lot of choice to me.

Once an item like the OS becomes a standard, the majority of software is written for it. There aren't really other choices for gamers.

So we go from monopoly to standard to your rights to game playing. This is as I suspected just all terribly selfish and has nothing to do with what is right or wrong.

BTW, there are other choices. WII, Xbox, Playstation, Linux or you could even get up off your arse and do an actual sport.

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Post #: 45

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 3/4/2008 7:51:12 PM

Marauders

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From: Minnesota
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quote:

So we go from monopoly to standard to your rights to game playing. This is as I suspected just all terribly selfish and has nothing to do with what is right or wrong.

If you choose to ignore economics, market dynamics, ethics, and case law, that may be so.� I choose not to ignore them.

Your premise is that Microsoft Windows, and other Microsoft products, have alternatives, so there is not a pure monopoly of one single company providing product.� Under strict economic terms, that is correct; Microsoft is not the only company in the market for these products.� Please note that I have been making reference to Microsoft as a de facto�monopoly which means that the market is so dominated by one corporation that the others are not considered market�alternatives in most cases.� Your premise, while it may be valid, is not applicable here because it is regarding different terms.

quote:

Google released a PC without Windows or MAC OS. It sold at Walmart. It was linux based IIRC. IBM has tried to sell them in the past among others.

The inability to gain market share with these options is evidence of Microsoft Windows as the de facto monopoly.

In the case United States vs Microsoft antitrust case, it was�concluded�that�Microsoft was in fact a monopoly.

Viewed together, three main facts indicate that Microsoft enjoys monopoly power. First, Microsoft's share of the market for Intel-compatible PC operating systems is extremely large and stable. Second, Microsoft's dominant market share is protected by a high barrier to entry. Third, and largely as a result of that barrier, Microsoft's customers lack a commercially viable alternative to Windows. (III.34)�

Microsoft also steals products and code from other companies and dares them to bring the action to court.� Bill Gates knows that Microsoft's vast legal resources will outstrip any smaller company, and the gains outweigh any settlement.� Need code from Quicktime, steal it from Apple.� Need code for Mediaplayer files, steal it from Sound Forge.� Need streaming audio, steal it from Burst.� The list goes on.� Microsoft is sued because Microsoft disregards patents and copyrights of other innovators, but it makes sure that its copyrights are enforced.

quote:

BTW, there are other choices. WII, Xbox, Playstation, Linux or you could even get up off your arse and do an actual sport.

An ad hominem attack and a red herring in one one statement, and you top it off with the condescending eye roll.� I am unimpressed.

< Message edited by Marauders -- 3/4/2008 7:58:27 PM >

(in reply to ORANGE)

Post #: 46

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 3/4/2008 11:23:24 PM

ORANGE

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Joined: 12/3/2007
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We got to your REAL issue in your last post. There are alternatives but you do not like them because people do write as many GAMES for them. That is just selfish nonsense. Maybe you can write a law that enslaves and forces people to do everything you think should be done? I know I do not want to work for free or less money. Do you?

It is all BS. If you want people to start supporting other systems make it economically viable for them by buying a Unix, Linux or Apple operating system and buying the available software for those systems.

The reason the EU is going after MS is because it is a successful American company that nobody in Europe can compete with. This is not to say that Europeans are stupid. A lot of talent left Europe during the tech bubble because the taxes are so high they did better in the US.

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Post #: 47

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 3/5/2008 2:41:54 AM

Marauders

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Joined: 3/17/2005
From: Minnesota
Status: offline

Orange, I have responded to all of that and more.

If you do not understand economics and case law, I cannot help you further, and there is no reason to discuss this with you just so you can use ad hominem tactics.

Your premise has been invalidated.

If you have the need to believe that Microsoft is a benevolent corporation that only uses honest and ethical business practices then you are free to do so. What you personally believe will neither change my opinion of Microsoft nor change the verdicts of the court cases against it in either the United States or Europe.

< Message edited by Marauders -- 3/5/2008 4:55:41 AM >

(in reply to ORANGE)

Post #: 48

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 3/5/2008 7:00:41 PM

ORANGE

Posts: 198
Joined: 12/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders
Your premise has been invalidated.

If you have the need to believe that Microsoft is a benevolent corporation that only uses honest and ethical business practices then you are free to do so. What you personally believe will neither change my opinion of Microsoft nor change the verdicts of the court cases against it in either the United States or Europe.

Your premise has been invalidated. You asked where you could get a machine that didn't run Windows and Walmart, Sun and Mac all offer those. You then raise the bar by crying about your RIGHT to games on these systems. MS and their business gave the world affordable home computers and through that easy access to the internet. What you personally believe will not change that.

_____________________________

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Post #: 49

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 3/5/2008 10:42:45 PM

Marauders

Posts: 4428
Joined: 3/17/2005
From: Minnesota
Status: offline

quote:

Your premise has been invalidated.

Please point me to the message that shows evidence that Microsoft does not have a de facto monopoly and has not used unethical and illegal practices.

quote:

You asked where you could get a machine that didn't run Windows and Walmart, Sun and Mac all offer those.

The Sun platform is used as servers and workstations. Until relatively recently, these used the SPARC CPU and Solaris OS. Try using software from Best Buy, Circuit City, or Wal Mart on those. They do offer Intel based machines now with Windows as an option. Sun systems with Solaris are not being sold at most local electronics stores.

The Macintosh is considered an Apple, and I specifically stated computers other than Apples. The Macintosh has a proprietary operating system as well, and it has low market share. There are software packages available for it but nothing close to what is available on the PC. Also note here that Microsoft stole code from Apple and then leveraged Microsoft Office for Mac to reach a settlement out of court. This is an example of Microsoft using Windows to bundle Word and other programs to make other Microsoft products their own de facto standard, and then using that to leverage other products or get away with illegal and unethical practices.

As far as Wal Mart stripped down PC's go, those PC's were dead in the water, and most people that did purchase them went out and purchased Windows XP anyway because there wasn't much consumer software for the non-Windows OS. Of course, Wal Mart was happy to stock stand alone versions of Windows XP Home.

quote:

You then raise the bar by crying about your RIGHT to games on these systems.

It is called market availability of alternatives. It is a factor in determining if an item has a legal de facto monopoly, and it is a market barrier. Again, you are bringing up points that I have already been over and you would understand if you were educated in this area. Please read the major court cases involved, as they explain this rather well, as does the quote from United States vs Microsoft that I posted regarding this.

quote:

MS and their business gave the world affordable home computers and through that easy access to the internet. What you personally believe will not change that.

You may want to look this up as well, because most Microsoft products were not originally developed by Microsoft. They are not the innovators you believe them to be.

If you are unwilling to look up the facts of the cases involved, or the history of Microsoft in general, your posts offer little more than your personal feelings on the matter. As I stated above, if you believe that Microsoft is a benevolent corporation that only uses honest and ethical business practices then so be it, but ignoring the case law and history of Microsoft will do little to convince anyone who had done even basic research on this topic to agree with your point of view.

(in reply to ORANGE)

Post #: 50

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 3/6/2008 12:25:12 AM

ORANGE

Posts: 198
Joined: 12/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders

quote:

Your premise has been invalidated.

Please point me to the message that shows evidence that Microsoft does not have a de facto monopoly and has not used unethical and illegal practices.

The fact that there is a strong Linux movement and that there is a strong Mac Market as well as others is proof enough.

The fact that 3rd Parties do not make the games you want for the platforms you want is not proof of a monopoly.

I am not going to comment on whether they used ethical practices or not since that is very subjective.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders

quote:

You asked where you could get a machine that didn't run Windows and Walmart, Sun and Mac all offer those.

The Sun platform is used as servers and workstations. Until relatively recently, these used the SPARC CPU and Solaris OS. Try using software from Best Buy, Circuit City, or Wal Mart on those. They do offer Intel based machines now with Windows as an option. Sun systems with Solaris are not being sold at most local electronics stores.

But that is the point. Before MS there was no buying from Best Buy. It was pretty much all proprietary hardware with proprietary software.

The fact that Sun systems are not being sold at BestBuy is not proof that you cannot buy one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders

The Macintosh is considered an Apple, and I specifically stated computers other than Apples. The Macintosh has a proprietary operating system as well, and it has low market share. There are software packages available for it but nothing close to what is available on the PC. Also note here that Microsoft stole code from Apple and then leveraged Microsoft Office for Mac to reach a settlement out of court. This is an example of Microsoft using Windows to bundle Word and other programs to make other Microsoft products their own de facto standard, and then using that to leverage other products or get away with illegal and unethical practices.

Why would you exclude Apples?

As for the rest I am not going to comment on it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders

As far as Wal Mart stripped down PC's go, those PC's were dead in the water, and most people that did purchase them went out and purchased Windows XP anyway because there wasn't much consumer software for the non-Windows OS. Of course, Wal Mart was happy to stock stand alone versions of Windows XP Home.

This sounds like a big sob story. It sounds exactly like what you were looking for but nobody wanted it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders

It is called market availability of alternatives. It is a factor in determining if an item has a legal de facto monopoly, and it is a market barrier. Again, you are bringing up points that I have already been over and you would understand if you were educated in this area. Please read the major court cases involved, as they explain this rather well, as does the quote from United States vs Microsoft that I posted regarding this.

The Judges are not technical. They did not know you could build a Linux box and the market has changed a lot since that case as well.

Surely they would not overlook Apple now.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders

You may want to look this up as well, because most Microsoft products were not originally developed by Microsoft. They are not the innovators you believe them to be.

Are you saying that MS played no part in getting cheap PC�s and Internet into homes? Every machine could be like the Sun workstation. That is how the market was before MS.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders

If you are unwilling to look up the facts of the cases involved, or the history of Microsoft in general, your posts offer little more than your personal feelings on the matter. As I stated above, if you believe that Microsoft is a benevolent corporation that only uses honest and ethical business practices then so be it, but ignoring the case law and history of Microsoft will do little to convince anyone who had done even basic research on this topic to agree with your point of view.

If you are unwilling to accept facts when they are handed to you there is not much I can do. There are alternatives. Yes they suck but if you want a MS machine then buy an MS machine. If not buy a Sun Workstation.

Trying to bring ethics into this is a whole different matter.

_____________________________

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Post #: 51

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 3/6/2008 6:13:57 AM

sprior

Posts: 8596
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From: Portsmouth, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

Does the EU have any plans for this cash or has it already been 'spent'?

They used it to develop air to air refueling tankers better than Boeings

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(in reply to anarchyintheuk)

Post #: 52

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 3/6/2008 2:34:05 PM

Sarge

Posts: 2841
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From: ask doggie
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ORANGE

The European Union does not have a choice. Europeans cannot make a better operating system so they have to try to make money off of those that can somehow.

Exactly

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Post #: 53

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 3/6/2008 3:01:51 PM

Sarge

Posts: 2841
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: ask doggie
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders

I don't want Vista to be bad.� I want it to be a good product at a fair price set by a competative market.

I am Jeffersonian in my approach to monopolies.� Thomas Jefferson equated the right to be free of unrestricted monopolies as a right of man just as the freedoms of speech, religion, and press.

quote:

I do not like... the omission of a bill of rights providing clearly and without the aid of sophisms for freedom of religion, freedom of the press, protection against standing armies, restriction against monopolies, the eternal and unremitting force of the habeas corpus laws, and trials by jury in all matters of fact triable by the laws of the land...

Thomas Jefferson to James Madison: Dec. 20, 1787.

What are you talking about ?

Jeffersonian economics was to rely on agriculture for the States.

quote:

Those who labor in the earth.. are the chosen people of God

Jefferson

In the context of British rule and owned industry this was a relevant statement and political ideology , but in the modern day America where in fact most of the technology and manufacture jobs are outsourced it has no relevance. In fact is completely in contradiction to his political platform

You mean to tell us Jefferson would have sided with Europe on this issue .

PS: If your going to use Founding father quotes , at least have a grasp of context .

< Message edited by Sarge -- 3/6/2008 3:06:19 PM >

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Post #: 54

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 3/6/2008 3:03:36 PM

Terminus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

Does the EU have any plans for this cash or has it already been 'spent'?

They used it to develop air to air refueling tankers better than Boeings

Hey, it's not Airbus' fault that Boeing is corrupt and inept...

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Post #: 55

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 3/6/2008 3:17:39 PM

Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

Does the EU have any plans for this cash or has it already been 'spent'?

They used it to develop air to air refueling tankers better than Boeings

Hey, it's not Airbus' fault that Boeing is corrupt and inept...

Maybe you guys can get a lawsuit going towards the American aircraft designers and manufacturing also, you know the monopoly that have help keep you safe for the last 60+ years also .

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Post #: 56

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 3/6/2008 3:22:29 PM

Terminus

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Oh, SHUT UP with the America-Uber-Alles Bullsh*t!!! Change the record already!

Boeing tried to bribe their way into the tanker contract first time around and were found out. Second time around, they just didn't have the proper product, and Airbus did. Get over yourselves.

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Post #: 57

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 3/6/2008 4:43:44 PM

Marauders

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quote:

quote:

I don't want Vista to be bad.� I want it to be a good product at a fair price set by a competative market.

I am Jeffersonian in my approach to monopolies.� Thomas Jefferson equated the right to be free of unrestricted monopolies as a right of man just as the freedoms of speech, religion, and press.

quote:

I do not like... the omission of a bill of rights providing clearly and without the aid of sophisms for freedom of religion, freedom of the press, protection against standing armies, restriction against monopolies, the eternal and unremitting force of the habeas corpus laws, and trials by jury in all matters of fact triable by the laws of the land...

Thomas Jefferson to James Madison: Dec. 20, 1787.

What are you talking about ?

Jeffersonian economics was to rely on agriculture for the States.

quote:

Those who labor in the earth.. are the chosen people of God

Jefferson

In the context of British rule and owned industry this was a relevant statement and political ideology , but in the modern day America where in fact most of the technology and manufacture jobs are outsourced it has no relevance. In fact is completely in contradiction to his political platform

You mean to tell us Jefferson would have sided with Europe on this issue.

Yes, he most definitely would have sided against monopoly power. He believed that freedom from monopolies and similar economic constructs was a right of man.

Thomas Jefferson was actually against intellectual property rights, but he did see short term utility of patents and copyrights for limited times. In fact, he believed that it would be better to have no copyrights or patents than to extend their duration to more than half the lifetime of the average citizen.

quote:

PS: If your going to use Founding father quotes , at least have a grasp of context .

That is good advice. When you have a grasp of it, please let us know.

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Post #: 58

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 3/6/2008 7:27:52 PM

ORANGE

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders

Yes, he most definitely would have sided against monopoly power. He believed that freedom from monopolies and similar economic constructs was a right of man.

Thomas Jefferson was actually against intellectual property rights, but he did see short term utility of patents and copyrights for limited times. In fact, he believed that it would be better to have no copyrights or patents than to extend their duration to more than half the lifetime of the average citizen.

You have no idea what he would stand for in this. You take quotes and post them but they are not his words on this matter. Copy and pasting someone else's words does not make you as intelligent as that person.

I do wonder where he would have stood on this considering your biggest issue seems to be that you want third parties to develop games for systems with the smaller market share solely for your interest.

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Post #: 59

RE: EU Fines Microsoft Record $1.3B - 3/6/2008 7:52:07 PM

Motomouse

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@sprior