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Scenario Design 101 - Art of War #6 - Choosing Units

 
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Scenario Design 101 - Art of War #6 - Choosing Units - 5/8/2001 5:47:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

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Well, into this mad chaos of getting 5.0 downloaded, I want to be true to my commitment of a new section each week on scenario editing. Probably it won't get read this week :D, but it is still here for future reference. Up until now we have done our background study, made our map, set the scenario parameters (the settings, date, etc) and now we come to what I consider the best part. I have my battleground, but I need warriors. To try to be as accurate as possible, I find the names of the battalion sized groups involved in the fighting and then go to my source books to find out just what units are incorporated into these formations. For this kind of information, you will need books or other documents that give listings of the contents of military formations for the various countries. For US forces, Gerald Stanton’s “U.S. Army of Battle in World War II” does quite nicely. For German orders of battle, a number of sources are available including Nafziger’s books of the very well done “Panzertruppen 1 and 2,” by Jentz. As you know SPWAW allows you to have individual tanks and small squad sized units on a very realistic looking map. You are looking down on them as though you were viewing the scene from an airplane. I like that feel of close-in fighting, and this new game gives a realistic look to tanks and vehicles like they’ve never had before. Usually in the case of larger numbers of units, I write down in a spiral notebook I keep handy the formation names. Then I figure out what units go under each formation. Once I determined what the units for both sides were as nearly as possible, I went back to the Scenario Editor and began choosing them. I like this part of the building process. I have the feeling of just having walked into this big, very big supply depot and pointing to this tank, saying, “I’ll have three platoons of those Shermans and two platoons of those M-10 tank destroyers, and…oh, give me about a dozen of those half tracks. No, those over there, the ones with two machine guns.” Picking units can be a highpoint, but I try to stick within the confines of what I am sure was really involved in the battle. This process is not as long as preparing a map and is probably more fun. To pick units for both sides requires anywhere from one to four hours, more or less. All of it again depends on the size of the battle I am trying to portray. I have to keep in mind, however, that without that good map, all those units are a wasted effort. So I am building, one step at a time. In the scenarios I create, I am rarely ever happy with many of the original settings or lower formations as they appear in the game. For that reason I am constantly changing these. For example, I try to show battle losses. In a squad that normally has a complement of eleven, I will change the number to eight. Very few infantry squads that had been in battle very long still had all of its complement. Wounds, death, illness, all take their toll and replacements are not always forthcoming. The same is true with tank platoons and other formations. Often I will remove a tank from a five tank platoon. Here again, repairs and losses take their toll. I also enjoy renaming the units to their historical equivalent. The game will not allow me to always type in every detail, but I can put in enough to give a unit its own identity. It is a simple process. Once the units are chosen, simply click on a unit, then hit the “d” key on your keyboard. This brings up the data screen. By clicking on the space that says name, the ID of the unit can be changed what is appropriate for the battle. Now they begin to take on an identity of their own. I often vary their fighting capabilities, such as morale and battle proficiency, which affects their performance. This I do in the same way. From the unit data screen, I click on proficiency and type in a number. The same is true with morale. As a guideline, green units have lower morale and proficiency. More experienced units will have higher numbers. And elite forces, such as engineers, marines, SS and rangers will have even a higher number. I rarely go past 100. It’s easy to recreate Sgt. Rock and his band of hardy warriors with careless use of numbers. Here again, trial and error is the key to the learning process. Occasionally, I will go a step farther and even go as far as to change the flag in the main editor screen (or simply use the “nationality” button on the pick screen), then replace, say a German tank with a French one and use it as a captured French vehicle. Another little trick that works in Steel Panthers is to change a unit for another. On some occasions I only want one tank in a formation. A single tank is not an option in the unit choices in the game. So I choose a sniper. Then once all units are chosen, I go back to that sniper. I click on the “Replace” button in the unit deployment screen and choose a tank in place of the sniper. Once I have done that, however, I must open the data screen and modify the unit’s armor capabilities. He still has sniper capabilities (high infantry proficiency – low armor proficiency). I usually just reverse the numbers. Now I have my single tank unit. Invariably, I use numerous methods within the editor to accomplish a unique scenario for the player. I am sure that most who fight these battles are never aware of these changes. They are there, however, as anyone who opens the scenario for viewing in the scenario editor will discover. We'll go over the picking process in more detail next week. Till then...Wild Bill [ May 07, 2001: Message edited by: Wild Bill ]

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- 5/8/2001 6:20:00 AM   
Jester

 

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with my 56k modem, i'll spend 3 and more months to dl the patch, so don't worry, at least i'll read it!!! it's a pity that only this forum can read about your beautiful lessons. what about someone get them in a site? thanks jester

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- 5/8/2001 6:29:00 AM   
Don Doom


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Sounds interesting. Loads I can use! Thanks Don :)

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- 5/8/2001 6:44:00 AM   
ruxius

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Wild Bill: Probably it won't get read this week :D, but ...
You still do not know about your influence and reputation..teacher !! Well 5.0 can wait ! now things here are becoming very interesting....
quote:

A single tank is not an option in the unit choices in the game. So I choose a sniper. Once I have done that, however, I must open the data screen and modify the unit’s armor capabilities. He still has sniper capabilities (high infantry proficiency – low armor proficiency). I usually just reverse the numbers
gasp ! Alwys done a unit's change for another but NEVER tought about setting it's proficiencies properly !!!! I often was used to reassign some units of a Plt to another one to make mixed platoons.. (infantry with tanks and maybe some halftracks...) This also works if you want to make for instance groups of 6 tanks were a section of two is available etc.etc. but now I am wondering about this trick made with no care about Formation's commander skills.. Since I know this is a different situation from that one you have drawn upon there I know Form. Cmdrs have some influence in ceratin action of his members..
quote:

Often I will remove a tank from a five tank platoon. Here again, repairs and losses take their toll.
And this sounds strange to me..the only way to make this true in my imagination is to assign the lost tank to another company or platoon after you changed it into another type of unit..did you do this within the SPWAW editor or using any Chlanda magical spell ?
quote:

Sgt. Rock and his band of hardy warriors with careless use of numbers.
:) :)

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- 5/8/2001 8:05:00 AM   
Don

 

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ruxius: that's another way to use the sniper "trick". If you want less tanks in a platoon, just re-assign the ones you don't want to a new HQ (the sniper). Then go back in the "buy" screen and delete the sniper - the rest of the units will be deleted also.

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- 5/8/2001 1:13:00 PM   
Wild Bill

 

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Well thank you gentlemen! I appreciate your continued interest. Yes, Ruxius, Don has nailed it for you. I often buy as my last unit a sniper. Say unit Y0. I put him off to the side. Then if I have units of a formation that I want deleted, I pick one (usually the last one) and assign it to that sniper Y0. Before you know it the sniper (head of the formation) has a couple of tanks and perhaps an infantry unit or two. I then reopen the "buy" screen and click on this X0 formation and it is deleted. Make sure this is what you want to do. If you do it and want to put it back, you'll have to delete the formation and then rebuy it. Wild Bill

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- 5/8/2001 3:58:00 PM   
ruxius

 

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WOW..ENE !!! Easy-Nice-Elegant ! What a nailing !! Don as vice-teacher !!!!This is a good tip for this lessons THX !

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- 5/8/2001 4:36:00 PM   
Christophe Jaureguiberry

 

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Hello Wild Bill, Sorry to diverge purely from scenario design, but I have a question concerning unit selection in a campaign. Is there a way to purchase more units in the second scenario of the campaign than what you had in the first? (I'm talking about core force only). For example, you start the first scenario with one company. If you want to purchase a second company for scenario number two (or offer the player an opportunity to do so) how do you go about it? Thanks, Christophe

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- 5/8/2001 5:06:00 PM   
Wild Bill

 

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Assuming you are approaching this from a campaign designer's point of view, Christophe, there are two ways to do it. Either way, however, will only give you that extra company for that one battle. They will not be permanently added to your original choices when you began. Both of these possibilities would be done when designing/editing the scenario. 1. Give the player enough build or support points to fix his units AND buy an extra company for that one battle. 2. Put the extra company into the scenario when designing it and make each unit in the company an "aux" unit. This is very important. If you put additional units in a campaign scenario as support units for your core force, they have to be labeled aux units or they won't appear in the campaign. You'll find the aux button in the unit deploy screen down at the bottom of the buttons on the right. Run your cursor over the buttons till you find it. Wild Bill

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- 5/8/2001 10:06:00 PM   
ruxius

 

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:D :D :D :D :D Well after you boys will be rested enough form the 5.0 efforts and a pair of MEgaCD then just prepare yourself for my new set of improvements ..... uargh uargh uargh ! just an anticipation ? a) The designer if decides can prompt a number to the player that selects a new branch to be followed (actually branches are fixed at "compile-time")(I mean when the campaign is edited first time..) b) Finally a "CORE" entry next to the AUX one for a unit.the correspondant coding procedure will append all units 'so pointed' at the end of the current core-units list a) + b) with 0 initial build points will allow to create a long campaign with a player facing different fronts and nations everyone with his core units in parallel... Now I stop my anticipation before I go too much out of topic... Yes....Aux unit feature is a something that let me dream...

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- 5/8/2001 11:27:00 PM   
skukko


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Hi :) I am reading this ;) But haven't had time to involve so much :( But I've made one scenario to its deploy -phase so I am not so long after you. In fact that scen is save to Huge allways growing campaign what I am doing as I fight it. I am trying hard one in it...you'll see then... ;) Sniper-thing was new to me, thanx WB. Very good...But tell me, if I buy motorized infantry, and in one campaign-scen I don't want any trucks on board, tell me how do I get them vanished for this one and come back in next scen? What I have thought is to park trucks on the retreat hex and start scenario, but I haven't tested it yet. Does it work or is there other way? This is mostly hint: You can do much when you'll open your save-game from camp and convert it to scenario. For example: Play scenario and: smoke whole map; bail out crews and set them to sit in retreat hex before starting. I have used this to create scenario in the campaign where core comes into the middle of the battle. This is plain fun: I bailed out Stug-f's crew and did look their weapons in Freds editor, :D ..two crews carried 34AAMGs with them when they bailed... :D I didn't load them back yet, i'll do battle with them to see what happens.. Off now. mosh :D

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- 5/9/2001 7:11:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

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Good stuff, Mosh! I also put the smoke on the map to represent fog. It works well down in valleys. Once you buy the trucks you are stuck with them. You can of course, put them in a corner of the map or as you say, on a retreat hex. Or you can give the human player support points and instruct him to buy trucks in certain scenarios. Good going, guys. Ruxius, looking forward to that masterpiece of yours...WB

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Wild Bill Wilder
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- 5/9/2001 7:43:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

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Any more hints or ideas on units and doctoring them within the SPWAW editor, drop em right here. We are interested! Wild Bill

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- 5/9/2001 6:20:00 PM   
Christophe Jaureguiberry

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Wild Bill: Assuming you are approaching this from a campaign designer's point of view, Christophe, there are two ways to do it. Wild Bill
Yes it is, Wild Bill. Sorry not to have been so clear on that point. So, if I understand correctly, the actual number of core units is set when the player composes his forces in the first scenario. Thereafter, he can only change his units, but not add to them (except for auxilliary units that will last for only one scenario). Mmmm, a point for the next version of SPWAW maybe? In any case, thank you for your clarification Wild Bill. Regards, Christophe

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- 5/10/2001 1:57:00 AM   
dfsrusa

 

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Two things: 1. Is there another way to delete a unit from a platoon besides attaching it to a differents CO and then removing that CO? 2. More of a philosophical question. Wild Bill, what are you simulating when you attach armor to infantry COs? For example, in your Moment of Truth Kursk scenario, the Germans have two platoons where the CO is a rifle squad, and the other two units in the platoon are Stug-IVs.

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- 5/10/2001 4:40:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

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That should not be, Defrusa! I'm glad you caught that. It came, I am sure, as a result of the many OOB changes we have had through this year. Do you remember which formations? I'd like to go and fix this and repost it. Thanks for calling it to my attention. I have not yet come up with a way to delete a single unit from a formation as yet. And you are welcome, Cristophe. Glad to be of help...WB

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Wild Bill Wilder
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- 5/10/2001 11:19:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

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Any more suggestions, hints, ideas, guys? Come on..I know you all have your little tricks and shortcuts...WB

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- 5/10/2001 7:41:00 PM   
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Wild Bill, I've been following the classes, and have been working on my scenerio. Great stuff.. What I'm doing now is trying to find that right combination of units on both sides to make a game that will be challenging to get a victory. I started with one setup, played a couple times, tweak here and there, and play again. My biggest problem right now is that I usually end up with two results: either the attacker gets a decisive victory, or the game ends "early" in a crushing defeat. there seems to be no middle point. Is this because my scenerio is small (two dozen units per side?) Or, is it because my scenerio is too hard, and I can get a decisive victory because I built the scenerio, and essentially know where the enemy is. I played your most recent scenerio "Fall of the Titans", and it was awesome. I got a draw first time. That's what I'd like to see with my scnerios. I want someone to have to play this thing at least twice to eake out a victory. How many times to tweak and playtest before you release a scenerio. I've also tried tweaking victory hexes as well. It's been challening, but very fun. I'm hooked on scenerio design! Sorry if this is a little ahead of your schedule..

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- 5/10/2001 8:20:00 PM   
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Wild Bill, I've been following the classes, and have been working on my scenerio. Great stuff.. What I'm doing now is trying to find that right combination of units on both sides to make a game that will be challenging to get a victory. I started with one setup, played a couple times, tweak here and there, and play again. My biggest problem right now is that I usually end up with two results: either the attacker gets a decisive victory, or the game ends "early" in a crushing defeat. there seems to be no middle point. Is this because my scenerio is small (two dozen units per side?) Or, is it because my scenerio is too hard, and I can get a decisive victory because I built the scenerio, and essentially know where the enemy is. I played your most recent scenerio "Fall of the Titans", and it was awesome. I got a draw first time. That's what I'd like to see with my scnerios. I want someone to have to play this thing at least twice to eake out a victory. How many times to tweak and playtest before you release a scenerio. I've also tried tweaking victory hexes as well. It's been challening, but very fun. I'm hooked on scenerio design! Sorry if this is a little ahead of your schedule..

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- 5/10/2001 9:13:00 PM   
TheZel66

 

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Sorry about the last double post... More on my situation... My scenerio involves a German Glider landing. One thing I suspect is that given such a small scenerio, and such small overall victory point total, the casualties incurred by Germans on initial glider landings may play a significant role in Germans overall outcome. I like the fact that the gliders do produce an certain randomness to the intial German situtation; however, the dramatic affect on outcome is not desired. If this is indeed the case, do have any ideas?? Cheers, TheZel

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- 5/10/2001 10:09:00 PM   
skukko


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Boss wants more hints :D ... TheZel: You were tweaking vi.hexes. Here is some IMHO: AI reads upper flags info. AI/engine understands properly only two differend VO-state. But very IMHO, don't have any proof or document of this :( AI gets broken in early stage if its troops:- Can't conquer VO's in number of turns left. Adding some turns as a ghost turns could help, as well late coming reinforcements because AI gets broken if under 25% of its troops don't pass morale check. ( This is reason why sometimes AI is broken in turn 7 and then in turn 8 it is not broken ;) ) Don't have doc. or proofs of this either but played some and noted. Last adjustments to VO's values is what I have used to get that slight draw to marginal victory. You also can try to rise value of some AIs troops that gets surely killed. This is done in unit -level, 'D'-key in scen-editor; cost of the unit. But then you'll have to be carefull: If you rise single tanks cost to say 300, it does not go to flag whats value is under 50% of tanks value. But this adds certain randomness to its behavior, and one reason why I use it in some scenarios what are quite simple otherwise.(IMHO here too, just checked these things many times.) I'll have to go now, but here is little to test and think. mosh :D

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- 5/11/2001 6:51:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

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I intend to deal with this in more detail, Zel in our next lesson. Balance is hard to achieve and takes time and practice. It can be done, however, and I know you can do it. Now, a German glider landing, so I assume this is a German attack and a ? defend, is that correct? TO make sure that you don't have a premature ending, set the morale in your A0 Unit of both sides at 120. Save. Now, for assault defend, the attacker normally should have 1/3 more points at least than the defender. But a lot of things come into play here. Who are the Germans fighting? How long is the battle? Of course, the victory points setting is another factor as has been mentioned. Wait for the lesson next Monday and see if you can get some more insight from it for this. Wild Bill

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- 5/11/2001 9:31:00 AM   
ectizen

 

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mosh: I've thought of something that may be a more elegant solution to your temporary truck exclusion problem. Let me first say that I don't know for sure if this would work (my scenario design attempts haven't been that advanced - but that's changing - thanks WB! :) ). My idea is to designate the trucks as reinforcements, and have them turn up a couple of turns after the battle (ie. for a 15 turn battle, they'd "arrive" during turn 17). If the scenario editor will let you do this, it should keep the trucks completely off the battlefield. Like I said, I don't know if this is possible, but it'd be worth a try :)

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- 5/11/2001 9:57:00 AM   
Possum

 

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Hello all. Could this be the way to get Dismounted motorcycle troops? 1) Buy your motorcycle troops as per normal. 2) Make the troopers bail out of the motorcycles using the 9 key 3)Save, then transfer/alter the save to a scenario. 4) Use scenario editor to give the crew the appropriate infantry weapons and proficencies. 5) save, transfer/alter back to a save. 6) open save, and load the troopers back onto the abandoned motorcycles. And hopefully VOILA. The next time they dismount, They'll have a full set of infantry weapons. I must try this out sometime this weekend, unless, someone else gets to this first. :)

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- 5/11/2001 1:01:00 PM   
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quote:

Originally posted by Possum: Hello all. Could this be the way to get Dismounted motorcycle troops? 1) Buy your motorcycle troops as per normal. 2) Make the troopers bail out of the motorcycles using the 9 key 3)Save, then transfer/alter the save to a scenario. 4) Use scenario editor to give the crew the appropriate infantry weapons and proficencies. 5) save, transfer/alter back to a save. 6) open save, and load the troopers back onto the abandoned motorcycles. And hopefully VOILA. The next time they dismount, They'll have a full set of infantry weapons. I must try this out sometime this weekend, unless, someone else gets to this first. :)
Hi all, possum: nice idea and it works for some other tricks and setups, but unfortunately not here. I already tried that some time ago. Problem is that game does not keep track of crews and their ordnance seperately. (Actually ordnance does not exist anymore for game, once it is without a crew...just the graphic remains) Once your edited crew enters(?) its abandoned ordnance again, it looses any edits to it (weapons at least) and reverts to the standard national crew with its "misc weapons" in slot one. What you can do with these "pregame" crews, is to have them recrew their ordnance at a set time! Give them reaction turn, objective flag and/or waypoints and have fun... "Alarm", the ivan (kraut, tommy, Ami..)attacks!!....gun/tank crews are rushing to their weapons... :eek: Use your imagination in how to use this in scenario design. :) BTW: Life still can be much easier if using Freds Editor for some purposes, but I think this is something for later lesson. (as topic here is choosing, not editing) ___________ Harry [ May 11, 2001: Message edited by: RockinHarry ]

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- 5/11/2001 1:11:00 PM   
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quote:

Originally posted by ectizen: mosh: I've thought of something that may be a more elegant solution to your temporary truck exclusion problem. Let me first say that I don't know for sure if this would work (my scenario design attempts haven't been that advanced - but that's changing - thanks WB! :) ). My idea is to designate the trucks as reinforcements, and have them turn up a couple of turns after the battle (ie. for a 15 turn battle, they'd "arrive" during turn 17). If the scenario editor will let you do this, it should keep the trucks completely off the battlefield. Like I said, I don't know if this is possible, but it'd be worth a try :)
Hi ectizen, nice you´re back. How are projects going? :) Your idea is as good as simple, I think this should work although I din´t try that yet. Also campaign games should eat this one...I think mosh will definitely give this one a try! :D (I´m still downloading the 5.0/5.01 stuff, so I don´t know if there are changes on this.) ___________ Harry

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- 5/11/2001 4:17:00 PM   
skukko


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ok, ectizen you said it :D It was too close to get unto mind. Thanks. ( It should work. ) Rockin Harry give us more tricks ;) That dug-in was nice... Game does handle crews as one class with same behavior, unless you'll cheat it like Harry suggested... Nothing to now. mosh

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- 5/11/2001 8:39:00 PM   
ectizen

 

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quote:

Originally posted by RockinHarry: Hi ectizen, nice you´re back. How are projects going? :)
Let me answer that this way: after escaping my unreasonable work obligations, a "friend" introduced me to the game Black & White. I have been distracted ;) That reminds me: Hey Matrix guys! How about adding to the next SP:WAW mouse-gesture based command input, and a giant cow that I can train to eat tanks? :eek: Play time is over. Work on the various projects is resuming...

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ectizen's SP:WaW Tools - Map Thing (1.0a), Scenario W

(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 28
- 5/11/2001 9:36:00 PM   
TheZel66

 

Posts: 210
Joined: 4/6/2001
From: Phila, PA
Status: offline
Wild Bill, My scenerio is German assault vs. British Defend JUly 1940.. I'll save my other questions for next lesson. BTW, I tried your hint about increasing HQ unit's morale to 120. I also changed the map to "soften" the initial glider landing zone, and that has helped remove the quick end. Thanks! On another note, I read in the manual that Command posts reduce suppression for other friendly units. That's all I can find on the topic of Command Posts. Can anyone expand on the use? Radius of effect?? Does it reduce suppression overall, or does it reduce suppression from certain kinds of attacks better than others (tanks, bombardment, infantry assault, etc...) Thanks for the help..

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(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 29
- 5/13/2001 2:56:00 AM   
dfsrusa

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 3/26/2001
From: St. Paul, Minnesota
Status: offline
Wild Bill, In version 4.5 scenario Moment of Truth X0 is Pz Grenadier III rifle squad X1 and X2 Stug42s AE0 rifle squad AE1 and AE2 Stug42s

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Carpe Diem

(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 30
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