Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Scenario Design 101 - Art of War #2 Map Making Part One

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> SPWaW Thread Hall of Fame >> Scenario Design 101 - Art of War #2 Map Making Part One Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Scenario Design 101 - Art of War #2 Map Making Part One - 4/9/2001 4:03:00 PM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline
Welcome to the faithful and to those just joining us! I was fourteen when my father finally decided it was time that I learned to drive. He was a big man, and captain of the ship, make no mistake about that! It was an old 1941 Plymouth with a big steering wheel and a hard to maneuver gearshift. I was not at all sure of myself and that uncertainty was not helping matters. The gears moaned and gnashed their teeth as I shoved it into first. I leaned forward so I could see. It was the famous death stare - death grip kind of driving all first-timers have. I'd only gone a short distance when an intersection with a stop sign loomed before me. I pressed on the brake pedal very gently, too gently. "Brakes!" my father shouted and his shouts always brought immediate reaction. My father was also an amateur auto mechanic. He prided himself most of all on his brake jobs. I hit the brakes - hard! I stopped. Oh, did I stop! As he unpeeled himself from the dash and windshield he informed me in his inimitable, colorful way that lesson number one was now at an end. DON'T GIVE UP! Scenario design within the Steel Panthers Series of games has about the same effect when you first begin to do it. No doubt many of you have wanted to try your hand at it, but have just never really gotten started. Your first efforts you felt were so inadequate, so "amateurish," that you just gave up in dismay. So let's give it a try, maybe for you another try. Don't expect perfection. That rarely, if ever happens. Don't expect it now. I hope you did your homework. It is the foundation. What I am giving you now are the building blocks. If you are just joining us, then go back and read the earlier post "Scenario Design 101 - Art of War#1." Then come back here. So, you know what you want to do. Now, how do you do it? Well, the first building block is Making the Map. BATTLEFIELDS ARE IMPORTANT Some people consider this insignificant in the process. Not so! Not so! The battlefield has often determined the victory of a battle, even more than the opponents caught up in the life and death struggle. The battlefield was one of the key reasons the Germans lost in the Battle of the Bulge. It was what slowed down Marine advances through the island chains of the Pacific. It can have strong effect on the outcome of any battle. So don't minimize map making. It is very important. And don't try to pass off a game generated map as a creation. Here, as in so many areas of life, ain't nothing like the real thing, baby. "I'M NO ARTIST!" "But," you say, "I am no artist." you don't have to be. The artwork is done. It is now a matter of learning how to utilize it properly. Did you look up at least something on the terrain of the battle you want to create? What time of year? Was it hilly? Rough? Was it desert, or hedgerows? Start picturing that terrain in your mind. See if you can even find pictures of that type of terrain. You may not be able to create an exact likeness of the area of the fight, but you should be able to find out the general lay of the land. If you can't do that, then you need to think of another theme for your scenario. Before you begin, however, I want you to take a day or two and just look around. Many of you live in big cities. Some live in "the country." HOW DOES THE REAL THING LOOK? How do things look? How are hills shaped? Why do roads and rivers have twists and turns? Remember, both natural and man-made terrain and objects are that way for a reason. Roads bend for a reason; rivers and streams snake their way across the land for a reason. Road builders would much prefer long flat straight stretches of road. Most curves in a road are there because it is easier to curve the road than to overcome whatever is in front of it. Trains will go around a steep hill if possible. If not, they excavate a tunnel. Waterways will go around high ground. Why say all of this? Because many people make maps in the game with twisting roads and rivers when there is no reason for it. It just does not look natural. Riverbanks invariably have foliage, sometimes thick foliage. Where there is water, there will be trees or plant life in abundance. And even forests have breaks in them. Only a few (like the Hurtgen) are so thickly packed with large trees. What I am getting at is that you want a "natural" looking map. If there are hills, they are nearly always more than a "bump" on the map. Hills slope gradually and they follow a contour level with an occasional dip or twist. I could go on and on but you get the point. Keeping all that in mind, I want you to now consider your map. But before you begin designing it, I am going to ask you to do the following. This is a step I want you to take in nearly each step of this process. PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT Open the SPWAW editor. Start the game; go to solitaire play, then editor. Then pick in the center of the screen "Summer (It should already be set to summer - that is the default setting)." Then click on edit. Notice in passing that there are five types of terrain. There is Desert, Summer, Winter, Jungle and Rough. Only this version of Steel Panthers has so many choices in this area. You'll want to look at all of them. Now what do you see opening to "Summer" - "Edit?" Just green, lots of green. Okay, that is your canvas. You are now going to paint a map, but before you do, I want you to learn all the buttons on your right, or at least know what they do. Some are merely tools. Others are terrain graphics and many of them have more than one choice. YOUR ASSIGNMENT Your assignment for this week is to take the time to use ALL of these buttons and see just what they do. Try them all. Try all the options. When you have filled up that map, simply click the erase button, type "y" and start over. If you ever get something you like and want to keep, click on the diskette (save) button. Then save it to an open map slot, giving any name you choose. For some ideas of what can be done, browse through the maps you have in your version of SPWAW and get some ideas. MORE ON SAVING TO COME LATER Now I will touch upon "saving" your work next week in more detail. It is not a big concern as yet but it will be, believe me as we go further in this process. LEARNING BY DOING Remember, this will only help you by doing. Just reading is NOT enough. You must also DO. You'll never be a good mapmaker, driver, musician or lover ;) , unless you practice. I got better using the brakes in the car because I practiced. You'll begin to get the feel for map making by using it. And keep practicing this week. Get comfortable with what it will do and won't do. Some things won't work. Find out for yourself what will and what won't. I learned how to make maps by trial and error. So did every other designer. So will you. There is no shortcut...no magic. You gotta "do" to learn. QUESTION? Now, you have your assignment. Please do it. If you have questions about the process of map making, post them here this week and I or other competent scenario designers will do our best to answer them for you. Remember to look at some of the sample maps already in the SPWAW game for some suggestions as to what you might do. Advanced Tips: 1. Does that dull "clunk" sound annoy you each time you click on the map or in the game? You can remove it by going to the SND directory of SPWAW and moving the 1.wav file to the save directory. I did not delete mine, just moved it to another directory. Now when I click in SPWAW, no "clunk!" I like that! 2. You know of course, that you can mix terrain features. For late fall, early winter, or early spring, I use a mix of summer and winter terrain features. I would suggest practicing with it and see how it looks. Don't overdo it. Also use winter trees for the above mentioned seasons. 3. Speaking of trees, there are winter trees that looked "burned out." Pick the ones with no snow, and notice that they have no foliage. These are good for shelled areas. I also use them for areas like Tunisia where a lot of foliage is just not abundantly green. 4. Then if you want some interesting terrain, mix your rough terrain using the desert rough for Pacific islands, coral reef, and underneath runways. It gives a good effect. 5. Want a building, even a multihex building on fire? It can be done. Pick the building you want. Click in a tree icon in the same hex. Keep clicking until you get a small one that fits under the building nicely. Then smash it with a large crater. Click on it two or three times until you get the level of fire you want. I find this very effective when use "multi-hex" rubbled buildings. It leaves a smoldering effect in the ruins. Wild Bill

_____________________________


In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant
Post #: 1
- 4/9/2001 4:25:00 PM   
RUsco

 

Posts: 402
Joined: 8/11/2000
From: Grand Rapids,MI USA
Status: offline
Great stuff Colonel. :D :D :D :D

_____________________________


(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 2
- 4/9/2001 4:59:00 PM   
skukko


Posts: 1928
Joined: 10/24/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline
hmm...--when making a big water areas, you'll have to look for LOS over the water. In some cases you will do water over a woods or rough hills, just because it is easy to overpaint. Note that you loose LOS by doing this. It looks weird while deploying units and they can't see over the lake or river ;) Take eraser-button and remove previous info of the desired place for a river or lake or seashore and after that click water to it. mosh

_____________________________

salute

mosh

If its not rotten, shoot again

(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 3
- 4/9/2001 5:01:00 PM   
ruxius

 

Posts: 909
Joined: 5/5/2000
From: ITALY
Status: offline
Hey Teacher , you have a natural attitude for teaching in your veins..I like your styling very much , it recalls me my university..I am very enthusiastic of these kind of lesson ! Well I stop myself here not to be out of topic !

_____________________________

Italian Soldier,German Discipline!

(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 4
- 4/9/2001 6:54:00 PM   
panda124c

 

Posts: 1692
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline
Bill, Say I want to build a valley with a stream, is it best to start with the stream and then build the higher levels up from there? Or make the higher levels and cut down to the stream level?

_____________________________


(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 5
- 4/9/2001 7:50:00 PM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline
Hello All Couple days ago I fired up the SPWAW again after a (too) long break..and then I decided to take a look at the forum. And couldn't resist to start blabbering immediately :rolleyes: I'd like to add one comment to Bill's great post. When you add buildings, check that you don't put a trail and a house in a same hex. Why? Because this is what causes tanks to drive into buildings thus immobilizing themselves..the pathfinding part of the code apparently looks only for the trail and doesn't see the house... Voriax

_____________________________

Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!

(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 6
- 4/9/2001 7:55:00 PM   
TheZel66

 

Posts: 210
Joined: 4/6/2001
From: Phila, PA
Status: offline
I've tried adding cliffs to my map, but nothing shows up? Is something supposed to look different, or does the difference show up at game time? Also, is there anyway to create walls that are high enough so that units can not see over??

_____________________________


(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 7
- 4/9/2001 8:32:00 PM   
TheZel66

 

Posts: 210
Joined: 4/6/2001
From: Phila, PA
Status: offline
Another question. My scenerio will take place at night. Assuming its a clear night, with no moon, how many hexes should be given for visibility?

_____________________________


(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 8
- 4/9/2001 8:53:00 PM   
dox44

 

Posts: 668
Joined: 5/7/2000
From: the woodlands, texas
Status: offline
Kunel, Great Stuff! I've been lurking. I've picked out my battle(s). "River Crossing at Arnaville". Using the "US Army Engineer School", Military History Readings Pamphlet...and "The Lorraine Campaign" as a couple of sources. This is usually where I get bogged down...maps are hard!!

_____________________________


(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 9
- 4/9/2001 9:26:00 PM   
murx

 

Posts: 245
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Braunschweig/Germany
Status: offline
Uh, shtupid queshtshion, made a map, set the victory points ... even thought of a scenarion type (delay or defend - Germany the defending side) that fits in that map (actually I thought of the type before I made the map). But now I would like to let someone check the map and give me some advices - it's my first map. So anyone like me mailing him the map to check it ??? murx

_____________________________


(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 10
- 4/9/2001 10:02:00 PM   
dfsrusa

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 3/26/2001
From: St. Paul, Minnesota
Status: offline
Thanks Wild Bill for the info about moving victory hexes around in post number one. I got it, but wouldn't have without your explanation. I've been making quite a few maps recently for a large campaign a fellow Grognard and I are about to engage in. The mega-map is an 8 x 8 grid of sectors, each sector being one 100 x 100 hex (custom 3 in the editor) map. We each start out with half of the mega-map. One capital, two cities, four towns, ten villages, and the rest farms, hills and forests, with primary and secondary roads connecting the sectors. There is a major river generally separting our two countries, two minor rivers, and several streams. From there I sketch a more detailed map of each sector on blank 8 1/2 x 11 paper. I start with the rivers, streams and gullies. If you're going to put a river and a stream running into it in the same map, make the river first, then the stream. Otherwise you will turn both into rivers when you "turn stream to rivers" Then I lay down the hills, then buildings, fields, trees and etc. I find that having a rough sketch on paper really helps in making your map. The screen in the editor is often not large enough for you to get a good perspective. Also, you have a good idea about what hex to start your roads and rivers on, especially if you use a 100 x 100 map. I find that my maps look quite different than random maps, especially with regard to the amount and shape of hills. Once again, thanks so much Wild Bill, Scot.

_____________________________

Carpe Diem

(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 11
- 4/9/2001 10:13:00 PM   
TheZel66

 

Posts: 210
Joined: 4/6/2001
From: Phila, PA
Status: offline
Another question. My scenerio will take place at night. Assuming its a clear night, with no moon, how many hexes should be given for visibility?

_____________________________


(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 12
- 4/9/2001 10:17:00 PM   
DoubleDeuce


Posts: 1247
Joined: 6/23/2000
From: Crossville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by dfsrusa: I've been making quite a few maps recently for a large campaign a fellow Grognard and I are about to engage in. The mega-map is an 8 x 8 grid of sectors, each sector being one 100 x 100 hex (custom 3 in the editor) map. Scot.[/B]
Hi dfsrusa, I like the sound of that. I am working on an 8x8 operational map composed of 30x30 SPWAW maps for a project I am designing. We seem to have similar concepts. Perhaps if you have some extra time we could trade some ideas, tips. I am using the 30x30 hex maps because I am using small units and this size SPWAW map is perfect for screenshots that fit on a web browser page width.

_____________________________


(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 13
- 4/9/2001 11:28:00 PM   
TheZel66

 

Posts: 210
Joined: 4/6/2001
From: Phila, PA
Status: offline
I found a resource which describes military terms for geography, environments, emplacments, and so on.. http://www2.cr.nps.gov/gis/reports/gloss/glossary.htm FYI

_____________________________


(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 14
- 4/9/2001 11:42:00 PM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline
Whoa! Better do some answering here. Nice responses, gentlemen! Thank you very much for the kind comments. I'm glad this is being helpful to some of you. Yes, Ruxius, teaching is my first love. I have a degree in education and did teach for five years. The poor teaching salaries at that time (not much better now) forced me to seek another vocation. You all have good ideas here. Voriax brings out a good point. Don't end trails in buildings. It is disastrous for vehicles. Scot's order of building in map making is good. Also someone mentioned the fact that you really need to clear an area or you may get residual effects from what was there before. To "undo" something, use what I call the "normal" terrain button, (3rd down in the left hand column of buttons, I believe) to clear an area. If you don't, you cang get heights or water effects underneath what you are putting on the map. Zel asked about a wall you can't see over. One way to do that is to make a line of #2 hills, then erase the hills with the "normal button." Now all adjacent hexes will have a height of 15. Click clear all those adjacent hexes except one continous line of them. Then build your wall on that line of hexes. (Simply run your cursor over the hex to see its height). Then you'll have a wall on what appears to be a normal hex but is actually blocking the line of sight. Incidentally, this works well in the desert, where you want a level 5 row of sand dune. Hills and valleys. Which goes first? No real preference here. It depends on the map I am doing. It will work either way, PBear. To have a cliff, you need hills. Then try clicking on the spot where the hill merges into the lower terrain, Zel. You should see the dark line appear. Where I have a cliff, I usually add rough terrain or rocks ("0") for more effect, but not too much. Not a stupid question, Murx. Would one of you experienced map designer jump in and help out the man here. Take a look at his map and see how he is doing. I would appreciate that and I amsure he would too. Randy, with all your experience at testing, I'm glad to see you doing your own scenarios. You've looked at enough maps, good and bad to have some great ideas. And I like the idea of small maps. They do work well. Remember, you have some ready made plain small maps of varying sizes that come with SPWAW. These are ideal for infantry heavy engagements on a company level. And keep in mind, we are doing a small scenario, my friends. No monsters this time around. Start small, and then move to the bigger stuff. Avoid those mega monsters on your first try. Keep it simple, students (the old KISS rule, somewhat modified - :D ) Wild Bill

_____________________________


In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 15
- 4/9/2001 11:56:00 PM   
RolandRahn_MatrixForum

 

Posts: 588
Joined: 3/18/2001
From: Beloit, USA
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by TheZel: Another question. My scenerio will take place at night. Assuming its a clear night, with no moon, how many hexes should be given for visibility?
Hello TheZel, you can find the recommended values on page 45 of the manual: Recommended Visibility: Good weather No Moon 2 Half Moon 6 Full Moon 15 Dawn/Dusk 28 Noon 45 Bad weather No Moon 2 Half Moon 2 Full Moon 2 Dawn/Dusk 8 Noon 20 Hope this helps, Roland

_____________________________


(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 16
- 4/10/2001 12:34:00 AM   
DoubleDeuce


Posts: 1247
Joined: 6/23/2000
From: Crossville, TN
Status: offline
Found the best way for ME to learn the map tools was to use the blank 30x30 map in the game. If you zoom it out as far as you can iyou should be able to see the entire map and still see specific terrain as you add it. Then, just think of bits of terrain you want to build and start clicking. Move around the map and place terrain, move your cursor over and check the results. Using this process helps ME figure out what can go on top of what and what overwrites what and the effects that occur from doing that. This was especially helpful when learning to convert streams to rivers and get an idea of what happens when clicking some buttons. Save this map in an open slot and come back to it when you have an idea and want to see how to build it. Experiment, experiment, experiment!

_____________________________


(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 17
- 4/10/2001 12:53:00 AM   
Drake

 

Posts: 178
Joined: 9/4/2000
From: Kingston, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by pbear: Bill, Say I want to build a valley with a stream, is it best to start with the stream and then build the higher levels up from there? Or make the higher levels and cut down to the stream level?
I always find it best to start with stream and then build higher levels around it. Since this is on map making I will add a few tips and ideas on what I do for making true historic maps. Step 1: Find as many maps and pictures of the area you want to do as you can. Its best if you can find a map that is about the same scale as what is used in SP:WAW, 50 meters a hex. step 2: I take train tracks and do a hex grede on the SP:WAW map and then I draw a hex grede over the map of the area im doing of the same scale. Step 3: I then do any bodies of water on the map im doing. step 4: Next comes all hills and rivers. step 5: Fill in the rest of the tarrain then. More then likely you wound be abil to do everything perfect but if you have pictures of the area you will know what types of farms they have and cities you can get very close. Doing true historic maps are not for the fant of heart. It took me in the range of 20 hours or more to do each of the historic D-Day maps and at list 8 to find all the stuff I needed to do it. But starting off in map making the best thing to do is make a lot of now historic maps and get some experince in before doing anything historic. O yes one more thing, when I make scenarios what I will do is make the map and the scenario at the same time. You might be wondering why I would do this but the tarrain is such a part of the battle that is you do the two of them two gethere you will be able to merge the battle with the tarrain and in this why you will have a more injoyable battle that plays more historic. Like any battle should make the player of it use the tarrain to his best advantage. Will thats it for know :D I hope you can understand whim im trying to say :p

_____________________________


(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 18
- 4/10/2001 3:37:00 AM   
BruceAZ


Posts: 608
Joined: 10/9/2000
From: California
Status: offline
Thanks Bill. This is very good. I have one simple question: How far should we design spaces (buildings, tress, ehdges, etc.) away from roads and trails? I don't want vehicles running into buildings, hedges, etc. yet I also don't want to waste space. I have practiced with one space away from the road on each side and no problems. But if I but something next to a road, I have seen them crash into it. I have 4.5 but maybe 5.0 will eliminate this issue? Doesn't happen all the time but with certain vehicles like amphibs it seems very frequent. Bruce Semper Fi

_____________________________


(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 19
- 4/10/2001 5:56:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline
Though I might get an argument from the purist on this, I usually leave my tanks a little maneuver room, unless the scenario calls for tight spots. With the new sidewalks coming up this is going to be a pretty thing to do! Wild Bill

_____________________________


In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 20
- 4/10/2001 6:37:00 AM   
Flashfyre

 

Posts: 330
Joined: 10/6/2000
From: Waynesboro, PA, USA
Status: offline
A few tips I've discovered thru practice: 1. Build your map like you would build a house-foundation first. Decide on the general "lay of the land" and build it. Lay out the hills, rivers/streams, and beaches. Then add some terrain (rough, high grass, sand dunes, snowbanks, etc.). Finally, throw the trees, roads, trails, and buildings in. 2. Remember which types of terrain are "overlays" and which are "underlays". Hills, clear, stream/gullies, and others are "underlays"---that is, they become the basis for the hex and supersede what is already there. Overlays like trees, grass, roads, and buildings go on top of the underlayment. Knowing this can keep you from accidently erasing a stream hex with a hill, or having a building sit inside a gully. 3. Always check the terrain box after you place things....it will indicate if the height is wrong, or the combination doesn't make sense. For example, seeing the following "Hex 0,0, Primary road, Secondary road, Gully, Level 15, Slope, Wooden Building" may be OK as far as the mapmaker program is concerned, but is it really what you wanted for that hex? 4. Too many terrain features in a hex can confuse the AI, not to mention the player. Also, a conservative hand with the "paintbrush" is better than a liberal one. What you strive for is a realistic impression of the land, not an actual "every bush and stone" representation. Well, back to my mapmaking......Attu Island is slowly taking shape. :D

_____________________________

The Motor Pool http://www.geocities.com/aurion_eq/index.html?976419304550 [email]kmcferren@onemain.com[/email]

(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 21
- 4/10/2001 8:06:00 AM   
RUsco

 

Posts: 402
Joined: 8/11/2000
From: Grand Rapids,MI USA
Status: offline
I find it easier to work from the center out. The majority of the battle will most likely be centered in the center of the map. So I place the most important items there. If the battle is a city fight, place the city in the center. If a stream or river is in the city, I place that first and place the city around it. Then the hills. Finally I divide the map into smaller sections and work each section until that section is completed to my satisfaction.

_____________________________


(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 22
- 4/10/2001 8:24:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline
These are all great insights fellas into how it is done, or at least your way of doing it. What catches my eye is that none of you so far follow exactly the same procedure, but I know from what I have seen you do good maps. We can all (including me) learn a lot just from reading these posts, my aspiring colleagues. Wild Bill

_____________________________


In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 23
- 4/10/2001 8:26:00 AM   
Banjo

 

Posts: 717
Joined: 3/10/2001
From: Southwest Missouri
Status: offline
Since I do not have a specific scenario in mind for this class only a general idea for a non historical small scenario, I fired up the map editor like Bill said to play with it for a while. After playing with the buttons for a while, the screen looked like someone threw a box of mixed terrain on the floor and there it lay. Then I decided to get a bit more serious. As kids as I'm sure everyone in this class did, we had an imaginary battlefield where we fought the enemy with our toy guns and imaginations. We had a HUGE piece of woods behind our house with a few hills a field and trails. In actuality it was only no more than about 300 or 400 sq. yards, but when your only 6 or seven it was huge. My parents still live there, and the woods are gone, but the layout is forever etched in my mind. So it's there I decided to try and make my first map. Since each hex in the game is 50 meters, it is about the size of my parents property. The side of the steet that they live on has six houses, so That gave me six houses in six hexes in a row. Now after looking at my map, I know that I could drive at least 2 tanks beteween the house next door and my parents house, so why will the tank imobilize? After thinking about it, there are a few trees, a shed, and odd bits of shrubbery in the yard. Not the easiest terrain to manuever while trying not to get killed. So even if you could drive a vehicle in between a house in each hex, there are obsticles which don't show up on the map that could be there. Now I want to go get a city map that has a distance scale on it, and see how close I can make the map from my memory to that. The odometer in my truck can help also. I think an important thing to remember is that, 50 meters is a lot of space. By starting out with only a platoon or so In my first scenario, it will help keep things in perportion. I have found that it's easy to spread forces out on the board farther than they should because the icons appear so large. Maybe I should use the icon reduction when I play. I hope you all get the drift. These are just a few of my working ideas at the moment. Will sign off now since it's late, and I have a tendancy to ramble on and on even when I'm not tired.

_____________________________


(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 24
- 4/10/2001 10:06:00 AM   
Don

 

Posts: 810
Joined: 7/12/2000
From: Elk Grove, CA (near Sacramento)
Status: offline
quote:

1. Build your map like you would build a house-foundation first. Decide on the general "lay of the land" and build it. Lay out the hills, rivers/streams, and beaches. Then add some terrain (rough, high grass, sand dunes, snowbanks, etc.). Finally, throw the trees, roads, trails, and buildings in.
Flashfyre is right, and one of THE most important things is to lay your elevations before you make your roads. Probably the best way to see why is to take a small blank map, lay a north-south road, and then make a hill over part of the road. Now you just made that part of the road "disappear" - even though you can still see it, it has disappeared on the small screen and you have to re-lay it. Now try to fix that N-S road, and you'll see it's not easy. When you add road juctions into the mix it gets even harder, and sometimes results in a portion of map being completely redone. By practicing you'll find out these things and soon learn the right order to put them on the map.

_____________________________

Don "Sapper" Llewellyn

(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 25
- 4/10/2001 8:30:00 PM   
ectizen

 

Posts: 139
Joined: 2/24/2001
From: melbourne, australia
Status: offline
I've been playing with the map editor, trying out various options, getting a feel for how those various options will influence my first scenario opus. I seem to face many challenges. :) I'm aiming to produce a jungle map, with lots of non-flat terrain - actually on the side of a mountain. With that in mind, here's my list of questions for the more advanced scenariosmiths:[list=1]
  • Is there an easier way than "8000 Clicks Of Death" to set the height of the original, blank map to something greater than 0? I know Fred's WAWMap can do this with elevation bitmaps, but that only works with summer terrain - I need jungle.
  • I'd like to have hills higher than 30. I've read elsewhere in the forum that Fred's WAWMapEd can do this (up to 50), although his web host seems to be 404ing him at the moment so I can't check this. Does anyone have a link to this hosted somewhere else?
  • What is the highest terrain the game engine can handle? The highest I've heard of is something like 75 or 80 (a tall building, on a 50 hill). Can it handle higher? Note that I'm not asking about map editors, but the game itself. [/list=a] I'll leave the questions about using OOB editors to add mountain goat units for a later lesson. :D Thanks!

    _____________________________


    ectizen's SP:WaW Tools - Map Thing (1.0a), Scenario W

    (in reply to Wild Bill)
  • Post #: 26
    - 4/10/2001 9:53:00 PM   
    panda124c

     

    Posts: 1692
    Joined: 5/23/2000
    From: Houston, TX, USA
    Status: offline
    Ok now for some hard questions. What is the effect on movement of each type of terrain? Water- Coral reef, shallow water, water, deep water, which one's can be crossed by vehicals or infantry on foot? When you convert a stream to a river what depth water is used. The rules say that trenches can not be crossed by vehicals but by adding 'Dragon Teeth' it turns into an anti-tank ditch, what's the difference?? Can engineers or dozers fill in trenches/anti-tank ditches? Is there any way to change the orintation of the start lines form 'top to bottom' to 'left to right'. I'd like to have an entry point and setup on the top and bottom of the map? What is the size of the small, meduim, and large maps?

    _____________________________


    (in reply to Wild Bill)
    Post #: 27
    - 4/10/2001 9:59:00 PM   
    TheZel66

     

    Posts: 210
    Joined: 4/6/2001
    From: Phila, PA
    Status: offline
    Is there any way to change the orintation of the start lines form 'top to bottom' to 'left to right'. I'd like to have an entry point and setup on the top and bottom of the map? Yes, move both start lines on the top half of the map to right edge, and the bottom half the left edge.

    _____________________________


    (in reply to Wild Bill)
    Post #: 28
    - 4/10/2001 10:58:00 PM   
    RockinHarry


    Posts: 2963
    Joined: 1/18/2001
    From: Germany
    Status: offline
    Hello WB, hello all I think this is the best place so far, for me to step in. Question first: Is Map making to be covered in SPWAW only, or may I give some examples/hints for Freds MapEdit, too? ____________ RockinHarry

    _____________________________

    RockinHarry in the web:

    https://www.facebook.com/harry.zann

    (in reply to Wild Bill)
    Post #: 29
    - 4/10/2001 11:46:00 PM   
    RolandRahn_MatrixForum

     

    Posts: 588
    Joined: 3/18/2001
    From: Beloit, USA
    Status: offline
    quote:

    Originally posted by ectizen:
  • Is there an easier way than "8000 Clicks Of Death" to set the height of the original, blank map to something greater than 0? I know Fred's WAWMap can do this with elevation bitmaps, but that only works with summer terrain - I need jungle.
  • Hello ectizen, I don't know how this works with Fred Chandla's editor, but with the spwaw editor there is a way: Just click on "Fill range". Put in a very big number (500). Then choose the terrain item you want - for example, a 30 feet elevation. Put the terrain item on the map (the item appears on a single hex), than click "Fill". Now you should have a map filled with the choosen terrain item. Hope this helps, Roland

    _____________________________


    (in reply to Wild Bill)
    Post #: 30
    Page:   [1] 2 3   next >   >>
    All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> SPWaW Thread Hall of Fame >> Scenario Design 101 - Art of War #2 Map Making Part One Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>
    Jump to:





    New Messages No New Messages
    Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
    Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
     Post New Thread
     Reply to Message
     Post New Poll
     Submit Vote
     Delete My Own Post
     Delete My Own Thread
     Rate Posts


    Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

    1.359