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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar

 
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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 3:58:04 PM   
Historiker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Yeah, I'm certain the bomber pilots of Luftflotte 5 were thinking exactly that when RAF fighters tore them to pieces... Do your homework...

sorry, I left school years ago. But if you ask kindly, I may help you with yours!

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Post #: 31
RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 4:20:47 PM   
cantona2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

To intercept an air raid totally (no bombers coming through inflicting damage), there are a lot of things that have to happen:
- the raid needs to be detected in time
- the wether must be good enough (bombing may be inaccurate in storms, but the bombers may fly home to bases with calm wether)
- there have to be enough fighters
- the fighters must inflict enough damage to drive off all the bombers...

On the other hand - if there's the will to do so - one can transfer over a thousand bombers over night to norvegian bases, one may attack early in the morning, one may fly there at low level...

If Germany had the will to accept high losses - and the Luftwaffe had this will on other operations - it can definitly mount an attack with over 300 bombers - if not more...

We have an adage in Germany "Wo ein Wille, da ein Weg" (where's a will, there's a way) - if one really wants to attack the fleet with a high chance of success, it can be done when the price is accepted...



and thats exactly what happened

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Post #: 32
RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 4:23:49 PM   
Dixie


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quote:

ORIGINAL:  Historiker

To intercept an air raid totally (no bombers coming through inflicting damage), there are a lot of things that have to happen:
- the raid needs to be detected in time
- the wether must be good enough (bombing may be inaccurate in storms, but the bombers may fly home to bases with calm wether)
- there have to be enough fighters
- the fighters must inflict enough damage to drive off all the bombers...

On the other hand - if there's the will to do so - one can transfer over a thousand bombers over night to norvegian bases, one may attack early in the morning, one may fly there at low level...

If Germany had the will to accept high losses - and the Luftwaffe had this will on other operations - it can definitly mount an attack with over 300 bombers - if not more...

We have an adage in Germany "Wo ein Wille, da ein Weg" (where's a will, there's a way) - if one really wants to attack the fleet with a high chance of success, it can be done when the price is accepted...



The RDF stations would have given enough warning to get most (or all) of the RAF fighters off the ground.  Plus there is the difficulty for the LW in maintaining radio silence on such a long flight.

Have you ever been to Scotland?  It's generally windy, rainy and unpleasant and the further north you go the worse it gets.  Long range navigation over the sea is not easy (the RAF found out the same thing) and with poor weather it only gets harder.  A few degrees out on the course could (and more than likely would) result in the bombers totally missing the base, either ending up scattered all over Scotland or missing SF and flying too far north.

Whilst the far north was not a primary concern for the RAF there were plenty of fighters up there, and the numbers increased during the war.  You don't need to drive of all of the bombers either, just enough to shake them up enough to want to go home...



I guess that the navigation problem along with the lack of bases and the fact that the LW was mostly tied up in Russia was the reason for the lack of effort expended against Gibraltar.


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Post #: 33
RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 4:26:35 PM   
cantona2


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Status: offline 		Dixie

Add also comitted against Malta and the Brits in North Africa.

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Post #: 34
RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 4:54:41 PM   
Historiker


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From: Deutschland
Status: offline 		The war against russia didn't start before mid 41, so there was plenty of time before...
How many - and more important which types of- fighters were in northern scotland in mid 1940? Do you have any data?

I know, there are a lot of problems, but as I said, if there's the will... - and obviously it wasn't there. In mid 1940, the Luftwaffe pilots XP was at it's hight, so maintaining radio silence is nothing impossible, even when fling low to avoid radar detection. Subs may be put into position to help navigate, there were several month of time to prepare norwegian airfields to mount that many planes - and still there were a lot of Me 110 which still could offer some protection, especially against Gladiators, Hurricanes and Fulmars...

There were several missions done with very high risk - and with losses that showed this risk to be reality, but still, it wasn't impossible...


_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to cantona2)
Post #: 35
RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 4:56:35 PM   
Historiker


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From: Deutschland
Status: offline 		And yes, I've been in scotland twice. The first time for two weeks of which one was rainy and the other time for four weeks, of which the day I left was the only one without heavy rains...

_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

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Post #: 36
RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 5:07:49 PM   
mlees


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From: San Diego
Status: offline 		So, is it your contention that the German's "lacked the will" to attack Scapa Flow?

They bombed London heavilly. What made Scapa different, Historiker?

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Post #: 37
RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 5:13:10 PM   
wild_Willie2


Posts: 2934
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From: Arnhem (holland) yes a bridge to far...
Status: offline 		London was within ME-109 fighter range, also bombing London had the function of getting the Brits to capitulate.

A major raid on Scapa flow would not have been a war winner, while the Germans thought they had a shot at ending the war by bombing Londen...

An attack at scappa flow could have been combined with a major navy operation (assault on Norway, break out of the Bismarck) to make it beneficiall in a "cost/benefit" analyses.

By Itself, an attack would have been to costly....

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Post #: 38
RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 5:22:42 PM   
Historiker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

London was within ME-109 fighter range, also bombing London had the function of getting the Brits to capitulate.

A major raid on Scapa flow would not have been a war winner, while the Germans thought they had a shot at ending the war by bombing Londen...

An attack at scappa flow could have been combined with a major navy operation (assault on Norway, break out of the Bismarck) to make it beneficiall in a "cost/benefit" analyses.

By Itself, an attack would have been to costly....

Yes.

Despite the point, that even London wasn't really in Me 109 range as it's time to fight over the city was way too short, the reasons are already mentioned.


- No (real) fighter cover
- Heavy losses
- even if a number of let's say 3BBs and 1CV would have been sunk - it would only change few for Germanys total war situation in 1940
- after a first try there would have been no more momentum of surprise, so everey try again would be even more costly. Such an operation can be only successful one time - just mention U47
- because of the points already mentioned, the chance for success wasn't the highest. The target has to be found, there have to be targets there, the wether has to be good enough, it would take time and money to build and expand the necessary airfields in norway...
- the planes were needed more urgent for other operations, so there was no will to waste them for such a vabanque action
- and many other reasons...

There are enough points why it wasn't done - and this points are good. But this doesn't mean it was impossible or without a chance, the chance was there and it wasn't that small. There was simply no will to pay the necessary price for an action that can't even win the war while bombing airfields, factories or London might win it...

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Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

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Post #: 39
RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 5:23:07 PM   
Dixie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

The war against russia didn't start before mid 41, so there was plenty of time before...
How many - and more important which types of- fighters were in northern scotland in mid 1940? Do you have any data?



From the top of my head the RAF had Spitfires and Hurricanes as well as Blenheims and Defiants at various points. There were also some FAA squadrons mostly flying terrible aircraft (Rocs and Skuas ) although IIRC there were some Martlets up there as well.

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Post #: 40
RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 5:27:52 PM   
mlees


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

London was within ME-109 fighter range,


Good point! Forgot about that.

quote:

also bombing London had the function of getting the Brits to capitulate.


Sinking Britain's navy would have the same effect. True, if Scapa had been made untenable by air threat (like the Channel Ports), the RN could have moved to Glasgow or Belfast.

But I think that Scapa Flow was left alone for the reasons given by others above, not through "lack of will".

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Post #: 41
RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 5:31:01 PM   
Historiker


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Status: offline 		So the question is how many competitive...

If this were in the pacific, it might be worth a try as naval warfare was decicive there. But even a most successfull attack would only be good for propaganda use and for moral in Germany, the blockade would still be tight...

_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

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Post #: 42
RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 5:39:14 PM   
Historiker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees


quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

London was within ME-109 fighter range,


Good point! Forgot about that.

quote:

also bombing London had the function of getting the Brits to capitulate.


Sinking Britain's navy would have the same effect. True, if Scapa had been made untenable by air threat (like the Channel Ports), the RN could have moved to Glasgow or Belfast.

But I think that Scapa Flow was left alone for the reasons given by others above, not through "lack of will".

Many operations and tactics are just a question of will.

The Kaiser didn't have the will to risk his fleet, so the High Seas Fleet stayed in port most of the war.
The Luftwaffe wasn't willed to pay the price for an attack on Scapa, so it never occured.
France wasn't willed to fight on despite high losses and perhaps even continue to fight from the colonies while their motherland is conquered - so the capitualted (except Charles de Gaulle)

The Japanese on the other hand were willed to pay the price for a higher chance of hitting ships and for an extended range for doing this - so they formed Kamikaze Missions - which seem unthinkable for allied Nations to me...

_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

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Post #: 43
RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/28/2008 5:23:50 PM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
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From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline 		Could any German a/c lug a torpedo over long range in 1940? You are not going to sink anything of value sitting in port with bombs alone......

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Post #: 44
RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/28/2008 5:29:23 PM   
sprior


Posts: 8596
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From: Portsmouth, UK
Status: offline 		Here's an interesting article about an attack on Scapa in late '39 by the Luftwaffe:

http://www.orcadian.co.uk/features/articles/fritz.htm

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Post #: 45
RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/28/2008 5:42:36 PM   
wild_Willie2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

Could any German a/c lug a torpedo over long range in 1940? You are not going to sink anything of value sitting in port with bombs alone......


I know that the He-111 could carry at least 1 torpedo over a good distance, it even carried 2 in shorter naval strikes of norway.

I also know that a ju-88 torpedo carrier was used during attacks in the med, althoug I doubt that a succesfull torpedo attack would have been feasible in a harbour as small as gibraltar.

Germans planes had a decent bombload, and even better, a decent 500kg AP bomb which could penetrate even BB deck armour.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 46
RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/28/2008 7:25:26 PM   
cantona2


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Status: offline 		aaaa Home Sweet Home

Willie, torpedo attacks would have been feasable flying in from the Western side, and then veering North West, but all that presupposes flying over Spanish air space

< Message edited by cantona2 -- 3/28/2008 7:28:09 PM >

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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/28/2008 10:48:53 PM   
DaveB


Posts: 151
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From: Forres Scotland
Status: offline 		However, for Scapa at least -
the RN weren't sitting in port, lined up ready to be sunk, even if the presumed raid made it through the fighters (at least one HE111 attack got cut to pieces, having been intercepted by a Spit squadron sent north from the Battle of Britain to recuperate...) An awful lot of RN ships were out escorting convoys,  and generally spread all over the place - the hunt for the Bismarck illustrates this quite well, once Prince of Wales and Hood had left the picture the capital ships were being diverted from as far afield as Gib (Force H) and Halifax, and taken off convoy escort to race to the scene. I would have said it was a simple, commonsense, no brainer - why risk losing the cream of your bomber force for quite modest possible returns, especially when you are still trying to bomb the enemy capital (and, prior to that, airfields) into submission 600 miles further south?

As has also been pointed out, if attacks on Scapa had been a problem then the fleet would simply have shifted base - as the RN did when moving their convoy protection/ASW assets to Liverpool for the battle of the Atlantic. No shortage, really, of bases to hand, should existing ports prove too dangerous for capital ships to anchor.

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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/29/2008 4:49:26 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		Normal bombers didnt had range to attack Gibraltar. Only Piaggios 108(only 24 made), SM 81(obsolete) and i think they tried with Cant Z1007.  

For Decima Flotilla Special Forces:

  • September 24, 1940: The Italian submarine Sciré, commanded by Commander Junio Valerio Borghese, departs La Spezia carrying three manned torpedoes and four crews, for a planned attack on the British naval base at Gibraltar. However, this operation is canceled as the British fleet leaves the harbor before the submarine arrives.

  • September 10, 1941: The Sciré departs La Spezia carrying three manned torpedoes. At Cadiz, Spain, it secretly loads eight crewmen for them. At Gibraltar, the manned torpedoes sink three ships: the tankers Denbydale and Fiona Shell and the cargo ship Durham. All six crewmen swim to Spain and return safely to Italy, where they are decorated, as are the crew of the Sciré. Borghese is promoted to the rank of captain and is confirmed as the unit commander.

  • July 1942: Italian frogmen set up in a secret base in the Italian tanker Olterra which was interned in Algeciras near Gibraltar. All materials had to be moved secretly through Spain and this limited operations.

    July 13, 1942: Twelve Italian frogmen swam from the Olterra into Gibraltar harbor and set explosives, and then returned safely. They sank four ships.

  • December 17, 1942: Six Italians on three torpedoes left the Olterra to attack the three British warships HMS Nelson, HMS Formidable, and HMS Furious in Gibraltar. A British patrol boat killed one torpedo's crew (Lt. Visintini and Petty Officer Magro) with a depth charge. Their bodies were recovered, and their swimfins were taken and used by two of Gibraltar's British guard divers (who dived with Davis Escape Sets and (up to here) breast stroke swimming and no fins) (Sydney Knowles and Commander Lionel Crabb). Another British patrol boat spotted another torpedo, and chased and shot at it and captured its two crewmen. The remaining torpedo returned to the Olterra without its rear rider.

    May 8, 1943: Three Italian manned torpedoes left the tanker Olterra to attack Gibraltar in bad weather and sank three British ships. All returned safely to the Olterra.

  • August 3, 1943: In the evening, three Italian manned torpedoes left the Olterra to attack Gibraltar and sank three ships and returned to the Olterra, but one of their men was captured.

  • September 8, 1943: The new Badoglio government of Italy signed an armistice with the Allies and changed sides. The Olterra was towed into Gibraltar, and the British found what had happened in it.

    October 2, 1943: An attack on Gibraltar using the new and larger replacement for the SLC (the Siluro San Bartolomeo type) is called off due to the Italian surrender.


    Great Circle Map Website shows 745nm between Ajaccio(Corsica)-Gibraltar http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=GIB-AJA going over Spain. Which means to be completely safe a range of over 3000km is needed.





    < Message edited by Dili -- 3/29/2008 4:59:13 PM >

    (in reply to Terminus)
    • Post #: 49
    RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/29/2008 6:36:10 PM   
    cantona2


    Posts: 3749
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    From: Gibraltar
    Status: offline     		Dili,

    If you're into Italian Forces in ww2 i can recommend the Commando Supremo site

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    Post #: 50
    RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/31/2008 4:46:34 PM   
    crsutton


    Posts: 9590
    Joined: 12/6/2002
    From: Maryland
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Historiker

    To intercept an air raid totally (no bombers coming through inflicting damage), there are a lot of things that have to happen:
    - the raid needs to be detected in time
    - the wether must be good enough (bombing may be inaccurate in storms, but the bombers may fly home to bases with calm wether)
    - there have to be enough fighters
    - the fighters must inflict enough damage to drive off all the bombers...

    On the other hand - if there's the will to do so - one can transfer over a thousand bombers over night to norvegian bases, one may attack early in the morning, one may fly there at low level...

    If Germany had the will to accept high losses - and the Luftwaffe had this will on other operations - it can definitly mount an attack with over 300 bombers - if not more...

    We have an adage in Germany "Wo ein Wille, da ein Weg" (where's a will, there's a way) - if one really wants to attack the fleet with a high chance of success, it can be done when the price is accepted...



    Well, the did not. And, knowing the Germans, if they thought the could pull it off they would have. That pretty much speaks for itself.


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    Post #: 51
    RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/31/2008 7:55:52 PM   
    Grell

     

    Posts: 1064
    Joined: 4/1/2004
    From: Canada
    Status: offline     		Yup the Germans missed out big time by not attempting to hit Gib.

    Regards,

    Grell


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    Post #: 52
    RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 4/1/2008 3:09:11 AM   
    seydlitz_slith


    Posts: 2036
    Joined: 6/16/2002
    From: Danville, IL
    Status: offline     		I didn't see it mentioned, but the battleship in the pictures is HMS Vanguard, the last battleship ever constructed. She didn't enter service until 1946 I believe, and was removed in 1960, so that should frame up the time period for the photos.  Also, her turrets were the 15" turrets that had been removed from the WWI battlecruisers Glorious and Courageous when they were converted to aircraft carriers.

    (in reply to Grell)
    Post #: 53
    RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 4/1/2008 7:28:03 PM   
    cantona2


    Posts: 3749
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    From: Gibraltar
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: seydlitz

    I didn't see it mentioned, but the battleship in the pictures is HMS Vanguard, the last battleship ever constructed. She didn't enter service until 1946 I believe, and was removed in 1960, so that should frame up the time period for the photos.  Also, her turrets were the 15" turrets that had been removed from the WWI battlecruisers Glorious and Courageous when they were converted to aircraft carriers.


    Thanks seydlitz

    _____________________________

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    Post #: 54
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