Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 1:34:47 AM   
bobogoboom


Posts: 3799
Joined: 2/13/2006
From: Dallas
Status: offline
25.2

_____________________________

I feel like I'm Han Solo, and you're Chewie, and she's Ben Kenobi, and we're in that bar.
Member Texas Thread Mafia.

Sig art by rogueusmc

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 31
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 1:36:46 AM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bobogoboom

25.2


nope!

(in reply to bobogoboom)
Post #: 32
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 1:38:58 AM   
bobogoboom


Posts: 3799
Joined: 2/13/2006
From: Dallas
Status: offline
26.2?

_____________________________

I feel like I'm Han Solo, and you're Chewie, and she's Ben Kenobi, and we're in that bar.
Member Texas Thread Mafia.

Sig art by rogueusmc

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 33
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 1:41:45 AM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bobogoboom

26.2?

mmmmpph - No...

(in reply to bobogoboom)
Post #: 34
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 2:00:37 AM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
Since i've already given the answer on The Thread - i'll give it here as well: 93.

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 35
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 2:30:20 AM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Since i've already given the answer on The Thread - i'll give it here as well: 93.

Darn. After reading the answer I was going to be a smart #@! and come over here and make my "guess".

_____________________________


Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 36
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 2:36:35 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline
The US Army was so well prepared for war, that it took till Nov 42 to have a force considered capable of taking on the Vichy French.

The 32 & 41 Divs sent to Australia were about 12mths short of training when "thrown" into action in New Guinea.

"Americal" was a hotch-potch of units which were put together for an emergency.

This is the cost of a Democracy, you are never prepared for an aggressor. (The world has learned a bit from this so most Nations now have a reasonable standing Army, but I suppose that was to defend against the USSR or its minions, or the USA & its minions)

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 37
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 3:13:44 AM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

The US Army was so well prepared for war, that it took till Nov 42 to have a force considered capable of taking on the Vichy French.

The 32 & 41 Divs sent to Australia were about 12mths short of training when "thrown" into action in New Guinea.

"Americal" was a hotch-potch of units which were put together for an emergency.

This is the cost of a Democracy, you are never prepared for an aggressor. (The world has learned a bit from this so most Nations now have a reasonable standing Army, but I suppose that was to defend against the USSR or its minions, or the USA & its minions)

I didn't say the US was prepared for a World War. I said that the training of pre-war units, those prior to 1939 was not as bad as is often reported, IMO. However, from what I have read, these units were essentially reorganized, dispersing the officer and NCO corp into other units and bringing in new officers and NCOs into older units. This may have had the affect of accelerating the training of the overall force, but it also turned previously solid units into less well led and prepared units.

Not to mention, the US was hardly the only country ill prepared for World War. Australia had a constitution that prevented it from sending forces to other locations which, could have really bolstered its defensive position, it had no AC manufacturing capability to speak of. France was in horrible shape, as was Belgium. The USSR was completely unprepared for total war.

It's virtually impossible for a nation to prepare for every possible contingency. Furthermore, you quickly hit a point of diminishing returns for even trying. Standing armies don't directly improve GDP and are very expensive to properly maintain. IMHO the problem with the US military, pre-war, was not that it was completely unprepared to fight a war, or that it was completely unequipped for it's mission (though equipment could have been much better). It's that the mission changed too quickly and the magnitude of change required was incredible.

I will admit however, that the size of the standing army was too small at the time and could easily have been double.

_____________________________


Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 38
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 3:46:53 AM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline
The US Army WAS pathetically small in 1939, but as pointed out above the US Navy was in parity for the #1 slot at that time - and it only got massively bigger.

The US Army was in no way prepared for war in 1939 - nor was the Army Air Corps, which was probably the slowest to come up to speed.

But be that as it may, it gives a false impression of the state of the US Army by 1941, and for example, though the Army may claim to have had some only 93 mortars in 1939, they are being dis-ingenuous. The army still had thousands of Stokes mortars from WWI vintage (76mm), and even with the equipment shortages for filling out new divisions, they had no problem delivering over 100,000 bolt action M1917 rifles to the Philippines in 1941 when they decided to do so.

So, though the US Army was pathetically small and under equipped with new weapons in 1939, it wasn't short of weapons - it was short of 'new weapons' particularly tanks etc.

The 'Why We Fight' films, of soldiers with broomsticks is again propaganda - they had rifles and machine guns and mortars and the like, but not the new ones they wanted (though they really didn't have the armor, modern artillery, and vehicles necessary).

By early 1942, the US Army had equipped and trained for modern war over 20 Infantry Divisions(inducted in 1940) with 60+ more training. The fact that they weren't coming to the Pacific wasn't because they couldn't - it was because of 'Europe First' policy combined with the fact that the British were not about to have a cross-channel invasion in 1942, or 1943 for that matter - so they just weren't rushed over-seas.

B
EDIT: from Order of Battle of US Army in WWII, by Shelby Stanton.

< Message edited by Big B -- 4/17/2008 4:06:09 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 39
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 4:18:43 AM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

- they had rifles and machine guns and mortars and the like...


93 mortars, to be exact!

They did have 2.5 mill bolt action rifles, 113,000 MGs and 9,000 field artillery pieces, though.

They also had a total of 329 tanks (almost all of them light tanks) and 4,000 Garand rifles.

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 4/17/2008 4:21:29 AM >

(in reply to Big B)
Post #: 40
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 4:44:47 AM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline
By the way Bob, I'm sure you know I wasn't stating you were being dis-ingenuous...just that the Army sources were being a might short of accurate.
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

- they had rifles and machine guns and mortars and the like...


93 mortars, to be exact!

They did have 2.5 mill bolt action rifles, 113,000 MGs and 9,000 field artillery pieces, though.

They also had a total of 329 tanks (almost all of them light tanks) and 4,000 Garand rifles.



_____________________________


(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 41
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 10:06:43 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

Thanks, all. The reason I'm asking is because, on a completely different forum-board, there is a thread where the OP postulates that the money the US currently spends on the military is better spent on domestic stuff.

In his/her mind, a large military leads to unnecessary wars. So, a small military leads to a peaceful (presumedly because your neighbors do not feel threatened) world, and no imperial ambitions.

I wished to counter with the data that, when the US was attacked in WW2, it's military was not large and threatening. (The USN and RN were in relative parity for the number one slot in size. But the US Army was relatively small.)


Pacifists and isolationalist pop up all the time but the problems occur when they come to power as the first thing they do is reduce the countries armed forces. No problem with this but you can't trust your neghbour to think the same, or in this day and age anybody, hence the need to have protection. You might not (hopefully never) need to use it but there again! I always tell them to read some history books.


(in reply to mlees)
Post #: 42
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 1:46:52 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

- they had rifles and machine guns and mortars and the like...


93 mortars, to be exact!

They did have 2.5 mill bolt action rifles, 113,000 MGs and 9,000 field artillery pieces, though.

They also had a total of 329 tanks (almost all of them light tanks) and 4,000 Garand rifles.

By the way Bob, I'm sure you know I wasn't stating you were being dis-ingenuous...just that the Army sources were being a might short of accurate.


Possibly, but this is in the "Official History" series written after the war.

It seems that with 113,000 machine guns (requiring at least 2 men to run them in most circumstances) that the Army wouldn't have had enough men to run just the MGs with <200,000 troops. So, yes, i am guessing those pics they would show of men drilling with broom sticks MIGHT have been propaganda.

On the other hand, having the guns in inventory doesn't mean that they were immediately available... it could be they were stuck in cosmoline, or stored in Illinois and hadn't been moved to a training camp, or some other "dumb" reason...

People sometimes forget that there was no computerized system for tracking stuff, and even recently with modern inventory and tracking methods - large amounts of supplies (many thousands of tons) have been lost/misplaced for considerable periods of time (Major Mike Solli had some comments a few months ago about this in his deployment to Kosovo in the 90's.)

(in reply to Big B)
Post #: 43
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 2:06:20 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

- they had rifles and machine guns and mortars and the like...


93 mortars, to be exact!

They did have 2.5 mill bolt action rifles, 113,000 MGs and 9,000 field artillery pieces, though.

They also had a total of 329 tanks (almost all of them light tanks) and 4,000 Garand rifles.

By the way Bob, I'm sure you know I wasn't stating you were being dis-ingenuous...just that the Army sources were being a might short of accurate.


Possibly, but this is in the "Official History" series written after the war.

It seems that with 113,000 machine guns (requiring at least 2 men to run them in most circumstances) that the Army wouldn't have had enough men to run just the MGs with <200,000 troops. So, yes, i am guessing those pics they would show of men drilling with broom sticks MIGHT have been propaganda.

On the other hand, having the guns in inventory doesn't mean that they were immediately available... it could be they were stuck in cosmoline, or stored in Illinois and hadn't been moved to a training camp, or some other "dumb" reason...

People sometimes forget that there was no computerized system for tracking stuff, and even recently with modern inventory and tracking methods - large amounts of supplies (many thousands of tons) have been lost/misplaced for considerable periods of time (Major Mike Solli had some comments a few months ago about this in his deployment to Kosovo in the 90's.)


Not to nitpick , but I wonder how some of the numbers were calculated. For instance , a lot of coastal defense sites had 8" and bigger mortars, but that is a huge difference from a infantry type (81mm or 60mm portable mortar). I wonder how many of those machine guns belonged to the Air Corps ( or AAF depending ondate) , which did still belong to the Army. Do they count the 2,4, or six guns in a fighter plane , or the 10-12 guns in a B-17? Or the two to four guns on a tank?

I would be very curious about the methodolgy used. Also I wonder what percentage of those guns were truly service ready (barrels NOT worn out , or parts missing,worn or damaged).

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 44
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 2:35:57 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

- they had rifles and machine guns and mortars and the like...


93 mortars, to be exact!

They did have 2.5 mill bolt action rifles, 113,000 MGs and 9,000 field artillery pieces, though.

They also had a total of 329 tanks (almost all of them light tanks) and 4,000 Garand rifles.

By the way Bob, I'm sure you know I wasn't stating you were being dis-ingenuous...just that the Army sources were being a might short of accurate.


Possibly, but this is in the "Official History" series written after the war.

It seems that with 113,000 machine guns (requiring at least 2 men to run them in most circumstances) that the Army wouldn't have had enough men to run just the MGs with <200,000 troops. So, yes, i am guessing those pics they would show of men drilling with broom sticks MIGHT have been propaganda.

On the other hand, having the guns in inventory doesn't mean that they were immediately available... it could be they were stuck in cosmoline, or stored in Illinois and hadn't been moved to a training camp, or some other "dumb" reason...

People sometimes forget that there was no computerized system for tracking stuff, and even recently with modern inventory and tracking methods - large amounts of supplies (many thousands of tons) have been lost/misplaced for considerable periods of time (Major Mike Solli had some comments a few months ago about this in his deployment to Kosovo in the 90's.)


Not to nitpick , but I wonder how some of the numbers were calculated. For instance , a lot of coastal defense sites had 8" and bigger mortars, but that is a huge difference from a infantry type (81mm or 60mm portable mortar). I wonder how many of those machine guns belonged to the Air Corps ( or AAF depending ondate) , which did still belong to the Army. Do they count the 2,4, or six guns in a fighter plane , or the 10-12 guns in a B-17? Or the two to four guns on a tank?

I would be very curious about the methodolgy used. Also I wonder what percentage of those guns were truly service ready (barrels NOT worn out , or parts missing,worn or damaged).


Dunno - it looked like they were just pulling up inventory numbers... on the inventory doesn't necessarily mean service ready. These were "Summer 1939" numbers - chosen to be those in inventory when the war in Europe broke out.

They did mention there were ZERO aircraft cannon - so maybe MG on fighter planes, etc. were counted. But, there were only around 3000 aircraft available (most of them obsolete/obsolescent with only a "handfull of modern aircraft available") - even if each of the aircraft had 6 MGs (extremely doubtful), that only subtract around 18,000 from the number, leaving around 100,000 mgs for troops.

BTW: as for B-17s, i think there were something less than 39 available in that time frame (total of 39 delivered by March 1940).



< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 4/17/2008 2:38:53 PM >

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 45
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 2:38:58 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
i will admit - the "93 mortars" number struck me as bizarre... i am wondering if this could be a typo... even 930 seems very low as there were more field artillery pieces than this.

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 46
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 3:00:37 PM   
1275psi

 

Posts: 7979
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline
I seem to recall seeing a LIFE Magazine article from 1937? that as its centre spread had a photo of the USA's entire armoured(or mobile) forces all lined up on the one field.

Cannot have been much of an army if you can get the bulk of it on the one photo

(in reply to bobogoboom)
Post #: 47
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 3:50:09 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline
"They did mention there were ZERO aircraft cannon - so maybe MG on fighter planes, etc. were counted."

Well, until the P-39 the USAAF had no cannon on aircraft, and the 37mm wasn't exactly an air-to-air weapon anyway.  Not until the P-38 did the USAAF mount a 20mm on a fighter, and only the P-61 after that.  Apparently they really liked the .50 caliber weapon...

(in reply to 1275psi)
Post #: 48
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 4:11:28 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

"They did mention there were ZERO aircraft cannon - so maybe MG on fighter planes, etc. were counted."

Well, until the P-39 the USAAF had no cannon on aircraft, and the 37mm wasn't exactly an air-to-air weapon anyway. Not until the P-38 did the USAAF mount a 20mm on a fighter, and only the P-61 after that. Apparently they really liked the .50 caliber weapon...

There were X and Y models of the P-38 and P-39 in the inventory in Summer 1939, at least some of which (i think) did carry aircraft cannon (according to some online articles) ... so either they excluded these aircraft for some reason, or didn't count their weapons separately in the inventory (i am guessing this later was the case)... and apparently they didn't have spares in the inventory...

(in reply to John Lansford)
Post #: 49
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 4:53:04 PM   
Panther Bait


Posts: 654
Joined: 8/30/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


[There were X and Y models of the P-38 and P-39 in the inventory in Summer 1939, at least some of which (i think) did carry aircraft cannon (according to some online articles) ... so either they excluded these aircraft for some reason, or didn't count their weapons separately in the inventory (i am guessing this later was the case)... and apparently they didn't have spares in the inventory...


If they were X and Y models, i.e. experimental or developmental models, they might not have been tracked in the inventory directly, not being officially in service yet.

_____________________________

When you shoot at a destroyer and miss, it's like hit'in a wildcat in the ass with a banjo.

Nathan Dogan, USS Gurnard

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 50
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 5:06:23 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panther Bait


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


[There were X and Y models of the P-38 and P-39 in the inventory in Summer 1939, at least some of which (i think) did carry aircraft cannon (according to some online articles) ... so either they excluded these aircraft for some reason, or didn't count their weapons separately in the inventory (i am guessing this later was the case)... and apparently they didn't have spares in the inventory...


If they were X and Y models, i.e. experimental or developmental models, they might not have been tracked in the inventory directly, not being officially in service yet.

Maybe - it all depends on the (unknown) way the Army did its inventory in 1939...

(in reply to Panther Bait)
Post #: 51
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 5:13:06 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
The one factor this discussion fails to take into account is that the US Army KNEW that in peacetime they would be "sucking hint tit" for funds and support---but if war threatened the would be innundated with money and told to "get on with it!".  They'd been through it before, which was why the US Army alone among the world's military maintained an "Industrial Mobilization School"  with the sole job of preparing and updating piles of data on what industries could be rapidly co-opted for military production of what items.

When the tap was "turned on" , the military knew what it wanted, and who could produce it, and who would sub-contract the parts.  And unlike most of the rest of the world, they knew that the quantities would be huge.   One of the reasons for Japan's complacency in going to war was that the US had barely produced a single merchant ship during the decade of the '30's (the Depression).  Based on that observation, the idea that it would produce over 50,000,000 tons of them in the next 4 years seemed remote.  Only a few Japanese officers had listened to Sun Tsu's maxim to "Know your Enemy!"..., the majority clung to myths.   

(in reply to Panther Bait)
Post #: 52
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 5:15:36 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

The one factor this discussion fails to take into account is that the US Army KNEW that in peacetime they would be "sucking hint tit" for funds and support---but if war threatened the would be innundated with money and told to "get on with it!".  They'd been through it before, which was why the US Army alone among the world's military maintained an "Industrial Mobilization School"  with the sole job of preparing and updating piles of data on what industries could be rapidly co-opted for military production of what items.

When the tap was "turned on" , the military knew what it wanted, and who could produce it, and who would sub-contract the parts.  And unlike most of the rest of the world, they knew that the quantities would be huge.   One of the reasons for Japan's complacency in going to war was that the US had barely produced a single merchant ship during the decade of the '30's (the Depression). Based on that observation, the idea that it would produce over 50,000,000 tons of them in the next 4 years seemed remote.  Only a few Japanese officers had listened to Sun Tsu's maxim to "Know your Enemy!"..., the majority clung to myths.   


That's a fantastic bit of insight, Mike!

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 53
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 5:17:55 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

The one factor this discussion fails to take into account is that the US Army KNEW that in peacetime they would be "sucking hint tit" for funds and support---but if war threatened the would be innundated with money and told to "get on with it!". They'd been through it before, which was why the US Army alone among the world's military maintained an "Industrial Mobilization School" with the sole job of preparing and updating piles of data on what industries could be rapidly co-opted for military production of what items.

When the tap was "turned on" , the military knew what it wanted, and who could produce it, and who would sub-contract the parts. And unlike most of the rest of the world, they knew that the quantities would be huge. One of the reasons for Japan's complacency in going to war was that the US had barely produced a single merchant ship during the decade of the '30's (the Depression). Based on that observation, the idea that it would produce over 50,000,000 tons of them in the next 4 years seemed remote. Only a few Japanese officers had listened to Sun Tsu's maxim to "Know your Enemy!"..., the majority clung to myths.


i think that proves the point of the original poster - this thread was all started to disprove the claim that the US having a huge army provoked the attack on the US... your post supports the claim that it was the weakness of the US that encouraged the attack (not the strength).

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 54
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 5:56:31 PM   
morganbj


Posts: 3634
Joined: 8/12/2007
From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
Status: offline
When I came back to the States in 1975, the tank battalion to which I was assigned only have five tanks.  The rest of us used jeeps and trucks as tanks in field excercises.  That's 1975.  Big bucks in the budget.  Lot's of troops.  Much equipment.  Just not were I was.

I was in a unit that had been de-activated in Vietnam and was being reactivated in the US.  (That in itself is an interesting way of doing things, BTW.)

In the jolly green jungle the division was mostly infantry; in the US it was to have one tank-heavy brigade (2 tk 1 inf btns) and a second split brigade (2/2).  The third brigade was to be a roundout bde of national guard.

We didn't get all our tanks for over a year, so seeing troops train with broomsticks, and trucks labeled "tank" in 1940 is very possible.  Remember, we went from a small 200,000 to something approahing a 1,500,000 in a single year.  That's reactivated units out the wazoo!

Those films are hardly propaganda.  My father and two uncles were in the service pre-war, and all three have told me that the films weren't accurate.  Why?  "Broomsticks were too expensive for most units," according to my uncle.  It was said tongue in cheek, but it was backed up by first-hand knowledge.

Also training wasn't all that great, either.  Sure we were "trained," but we were using woefully outdated doctrine.  We only got VALUABLE training once we started taking horrendous casualties early in the war.  We adjusted our docrine some, especially to account for faster and more lethal combat, and were much more prepared later in the war.  Units already deployed had little time to conduct this new training and were forced to learn as they went.  (This was actually a pretty effective way to do it, as it turned out.)  An example:  We didn't have a clue about mobile, combined arms warfare until sometime after Kasserine.  Another? We ddn't figure out how to use airborne troops until sometime around Normandy.  (My uncle was a D-Day Screaming Eagle and said we never did figure it out.  But he was a little biased since his stick missed the drop zone by 13 miles.)  ANother?  Our knowledge of the use of airpower.  Another?  The use of carriers in naval operations.

While there were some who knew how to train troops, sailors, marines, etc.  The service doctrines were just not modern enough to do a good job at the operational levels.  Sure, the rifleman could shoot, the radio operator could communicate, the pilot could fly.  Individually we were pretty well trained, but at battalion or higher, we were just cluless.  Being a great shot is a wonderful thing, but if you're in the wrong place, you're worthless.

The marines were probably the most ready of all the services.  The others, I'm afraid, were all tied for last place.

The point is that we were not ready for war in 39 or 40.  We were not ready for war in 1941, either.  It did take us until the second half of 42 to even come close.  Why?  Congress fought Rooselvelt tooth and nail to leave Europe to solve its own problems.  Pretty shortsighted, if you ask me, but that's the truth about it.  I'm no Roosevelt fan, but he was right.

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 55
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 6:00:13 PM   
Grell

 

Posts: 1064
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

When America entered the war, the US Army had 37 divisions, but exactly ONE was considered fit for operational deployment overseas.


Geez, that is unreal!


Regards,

Greg

_____________________________


(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 56
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 6:09:08 PM   
ilovestrategy


Posts: 3611
Joined: 6/11/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline
What amazes me is the turn around in a couple of years. Sometimes I'll run across a chart that has the comparison from 1941 and say, like 43 or 44 and the difference is astoundng.
Can you imagine being a German private on the beach at Normandy and seeing a carpet of ships and boats or A Japanese pilot seeing a vast Armada of ships stretching to the horizon...


_____________________________

After 16 years, Civ II still has me in it's clutches LOL!!!
Now CIV IV has me in it's evil clutches!

(in reply to Grell)
Post #: 57
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 7:06:14 PM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline
Well said.
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

The one factor this discussion fails to take into account is that the US Army KNEW that in peacetime they would be "sucking hint tit" for funds and support---but if war threatened the would be innundated with money and told to "get on with it!". They'd been through it before, which was why the US Army alone among the world's military maintained an "Industrial Mobilization School" with the sole job of preparing and updating piles of data on what industries could be rapidly co-opted for military production of what items.

When the tap was "turned on" , the military knew what it wanted, and who could produce it, and who would sub-contract the parts. And unlike most of the rest of the world, they knew that the quantities would be huge. One of the reasons for Japan's complacency in going to war was that the US had barely produced a single merchant ship during the decade of the '30's (the Depression). Based on that observation, the idea that it would produce over 50,000,000 tons of them in the next 4 years seemed remote. Only a few Japanese officers had listened to Sun Tsu's maxim to "Know your Enemy!"..., the majority clung to myths.


i think that proves the point of the original poster - this thread was all started to disprove the claim that the US having a huge army provoked the attack on the US... your post supports the claim that it was the weakness of the US that encouraged the attack (not the strength).



_____________________________


(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 58
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 7:14:27 PM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline

quote:


Those films are hardly propaganda.

If Why We Fight wasn't propaganda - I don't know what is,

Main Entry:
pro•pa•gan•da
Pronunciation:
\ˌprä-pə-ˈgan-də, ˌprō-\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
New Latin, from Congregatio de propaganda fide Congregation for propagating the faith, organization established by Pope Gregory XV died 1623
Date:
1718
1: a concerted set of messages aimed at influencing the opinions or behavior of large numbers of people. Instead of impartially providing information, propaganda in its most basic sense presents information in order to influence its audience. The most effective propaganda is often completely truthful, but some propaganda presents facts selectively (thus lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or gives loaded messages in order to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the cognitive narrative of the subject in the target audience.
2: the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3: ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect


_____________________________


(in reply to morganbj)
Post #: 59
RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar - 4/17/2008 8:00:15 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

The one factor this discussion fails to take into account is that the US Army KNEW that in peacetime they would be "sucking hint tit" for funds and support---but if war threatened the would be innundated with money and told to "get on with it!". They'd been through it before, which was why the US Army alone among the world's military maintained an "Industrial Mobilization School" with the sole job of preparing and updating piles of data on what industries could be rapidly co-opted for military production of what items.

When the tap was "turned on" , the military knew what it wanted, and who could produce it, and who would sub-contract the parts. And unlike most of the rest of the world, they knew that the quantities would be huge. One of the reasons for Japan's complacency in going to war was that the US had barely produced a single merchant ship during the decade of the '30's (the Depression). Based on that observation, the idea that it would produce over 50,000,000 tons of them in the next 4 years seemed remote. Only a few Japanese officers had listened to Sun Tsu's maxim to "Know your Enemy!"..., the majority clung to myths.


i think that proves the point of the original poster - this thread was all started to disprove the claim that the US having a huge army provoked the attack on the US... your post supports the claim that it was the weakness of the US that encouraged the attack (not the strength).



Not quite. It was the APPARENT weakness that they mis-read. Had they bothered to look at what was "in the pipeline" for 1919 when the First War ended, they would have been wiser. Or even at the figures for Aircraft production from 1939 to 1941, which had tripled and was exceeding that of all three Axis powers. Or the fact that of 3.5 million motor vehicles produced in the whole world in 1939, 2.5 million were produced in the US. Not realizing what such production could grow to in the event of being re-directed to military hardware was very short-sighted by the Axis.

The only "provoking" America provided (if you can call it that) was the "Two-Ocean Navy Bill" and it's supplements---which the Japanese realized meant that their 20-year Naval buildup was going to be swamped in 3 years by the US Fleet...., and their "Window of Opportunity" was closing fast.

(in reply to Big B)
Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4   next >   >>
All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> RE: OT: question: US military size, prewar Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

1.563