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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the South Pacific >> Shattered

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Shattered - 4/7/2002 11:28:14 AM

mogami

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I would have been completly shattered at a response like that.
I once asked Bobby Horner to sign a baseball and he did as well as give me his hat. (but the SOB stole my cup of beer)

While working as a waiter in New Orleans winter 1977-78 the Super Bowl was in town. I waited on Frank Gifford, Billy Kilmer and several other sports caster/former player types. They gave me a monster tip. And then later that night I ran into them on Bourbon st and they got me totally drunk.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Sinjen)

Post #: 61

- 4/7/2002 11:41:52 AM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
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From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
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I meant that I think he thought it was kinda funny and said there were a lot of little things he overlooked. Or that's what my buddy told me as we were both hooked on the game and he mailed the letter.

Always wanted to go to N'Orleans, toss around a few beads, drink lots of beer, check out some bands, and eat creole seafood by the pound!

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Sinjen)

Post #: 62

What Campaign - 4/7/2002 11:55:19 AM

mogami

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Once we all have our shiney new CD's in our tight little fists, and have beat up the AI (no matter how good) from every conceivable direction and are in need of stiffer competion. We will have to searching for a human. What setup do you most look forward to using?
I really want to try the Historical one (the Midway occured one)
Can someone tell me what date this Campaign begins and ends on. What the victory conditions are?

The non Midway 1st of May start will of course be high on my list to play. Only I feel that this set up is 180 degrees from the actual one and this is where I am most interested. (the US would not have been in position for offensive action in the Solomons in Aug 42 had not Midway taken place IMHO)
Both sides are interesting to me I have no real preferce beyond the fact that the Japanese lost. And as pointed out their position is safer since you can not do worse then being defeated.
I am also somewhat taken with the multi-player per side idea just to make it that much more difficult. (email from player one "send me a regt of infantry as soon as possible" response "no way Jose") The AAR's generated from this would be highly entertaining.

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Sinjen)

Post #: 63

- 4/7/2002 12:31:15 PM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
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Mogami. I'm with you on this one. UV makes little sense as a theatre if Midway did not happen as it did. A little random die throwing into the Midway Happened mix might be interesting, though. OK, we are playing the May 42 start campaign, but both Lexington and Yorktown are sunk (not just both believed to be sunk as really occurred) and Port Moresby is taken by a Japanese amphip op. Midway op was already underway logistically and Americans would have responded with Big E and Hornet, anyway, given the seriousness of the threat to Hawaii. So, in reality (game terms), the odds are changed somewhat. Perhaps a Japanese heavy carrier could have withdrawn in this situation, as the Yorktown was not there to drop the Soryu and to attract both counterattacks. Maybe either Big E or Hornet was sunk or crippled. With loss of so many carriers, and Port Moresby in Japanese hands, perhaps the US must simply perform a holding action in South Pacific theatre instead of attempting Watchtower, calling upon Ranger CV 4 and perhaps an early appearance of HMS Victorious in a desperate move to fill the breach. There are so many variables which can lend themselves to the fog of war aspect of OOB reinforcements. I beleive these variables to be a necessity.

That's why I've always liked starting from Aug 7/42. It's very cut and dried and very well balanced for play purposes. Surprise is there too, as reinforcements for Japanese take about 2 weeks to materialize. WITP is going to shine PBEM as all these variables will become moot.

I want to be the first to play you, Mogami. Or one of the first, as you stated you have no qualms about playing 2 campaigns simultaneously. That multiplayer does sound good, as well. Hopefully, each command position has its own set of victory conditions, perhaps simulating some of the interservice fighting and resultant lack of coordination. Would add a little spice, eh? ;)

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Sinjen)

Post #: 64

PBEM - 4/7/2002 1:09:24 PM

mogami

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Greetings, When I play PBEM games I make a folder for each game I have going named after opponent and side so I can keept track. Since I require a constant source of entertainment 1 PBEM game is never enough (dread oh dread no turn received today) but if you hace a t least a dozen running then you usally have something to do every day (and lessons learned in one can be applied in another)
I have two takes on campaign selection
1. the historical as already posted
2. 1st of May no Midway. Here I will use UV more as a test platform for stratagy to be applied later in Witp. Of all the ideas I have cooked up for how Japan should have conducted operations after the completion of securing the Southern Resource Area, The South Pacific seems the most logical. (these ideas range from the simple "stop all operations and dig in" to the "massive offensive into the Central Pacific in order to destroy the USN")
I have developed over time a simple fear of having a Midway type battle and outcome. The risks the Central Pacific carry are more then then chance of reward (once again only MHO).
The South Pacific for some of the reasons posted in target selection (Guadalcanal versus Port Morsby) however offers a place for low risk high yield operations (for a limited time and dependent on prior operational outcomes)
No doubt exists when playing Witp I will experiment with all possible methods for conduct of the war after the 1st Phase completes (including CenPac adventures) but UV is after all the South Pacific.
In regards to the overall war effort as Japan continued operations in this theatre if prefaced by preparing for it from the opening days could draw the Allies into another set of battles under unfavorable conditions. (what if Lunga receives an engineer and base force with supplies in Jan/Feb 42?)
It is a target rich envoirment and has plenty of bases that can provide mutal support. The US will be in the midst of the "great material shortage phase" and if proper diversions can be used.........who knows.

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Sinjen)

Post #: 65

Midway - 4/7/2002 2:26:44 PM

mogami

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"A little random die throwing into the Midway Happened mix might be interesting, though. OK, we are playing the May 42 start campaign, but both Lexington and Yorktown are sunk (not just both believed to be sunk as really occurred) and Port Moresby is taken by a Japanese amphip op. Midway op was already underway logistically and Americans would have responded with Big E and Hornet, anyway, given the seriousness of the threat to Hawaii. So, in reality (game terms), the odds are changed somewhat. Perhaps a Japanese heavy carrier could have withdrawn in this situation, as the Yorktown was not there to drop the Soryu and to attract both counterattacks. Maybe either Big E or Hornet was sunk or crippled. With loss of so many carriers, and Port Moresby in Japanese hands, perhaps the US must simply perform a holding action in South Pacific theatre instead of attempting Watchtower, calling upon Ranger CV 4 and perhaps an early appearance of HMS Victorious in a desperate move to fill the breach." quote from Ron

Had to chew on this for a while. Whoa nellie!!!
"in the news today..... July 42 firing squads for Naval and Army leaders continue in Washington today..."

While these are all results I would love to inflict on the US while commanding the Japanese I would not prefer them presented as fait accomplies before I assumed control. (much too hard an act to follow) A US diaster at Midway would present the allied player with the same problems the non Midway May 42 start only with less to combat with. I think it would be a slaughter. Just not having Midway makes for a tough enough row to hoe. (the increase in force ratio is all Japans) Without the US victory in June there is no Watchtower in Aug. That battle will be fought somewhere in the South Pacific instead and the first task for the US will be to win a comparable battle before he can consider anything but a defensive posture. When playing the Japanese in UV minus Midway you really only need avoid such a disaster. To retain the initative. (Supply is the only major obstacle to being able to carry out a reasonable plan)

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Sinjen)

Post #: 66

- 4/7/2002 6:28:01 PM

Ron Saueracker

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My concept of variables were not clearly presented in the above. The above refers to a head to head match between to humans (no AI) from start of May 42 campaign, and possible outcomes which lend themselves to the "Midway Happens" (offboard) default setting, and, of course, to whatever reinforcements are available post Midway.

One can never guarantee the same result at Coral Sea as the historical. Regardless of minor ships, and strategic acquisitions, it's the heavy CVs which count. The Japanese disaster at Midway was, in many ways, the result of the IJN splitting up it's six strong carrier fleet in order to conduct two almost simultaneous forays against the allies (Coral Sea and Midway). Having lost the use of both Shokaku and Zuikaku in May, only the four heavies were available for Midway. Having sunk Lexington, but only slightly damaging Yorktown (IJN thought she went down), left the three Yorktown class to thwart the Midway operation.

So, historically, it was 4 heavy IJN CVs vs. 3 heavy USN CVs = 4 CV lost for Japan, 1 CV lost for USN at Midway. My point is, should all four IJN carriers (Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu, Soryu) be lost if let's say in our game, the Lexington and Yorktown were both sunk in May and obviously not available in June (or any other time except as guest cameos on a Robert Ballard National Geographic Explorer special)? Conversely, if only Shokaku was damaged and Zuikaku's air group was more or less intact, and same result on USN side (both CVs sunk) for the month of May, theoretically, there would have been 5 IJN CV vs 2 USN CV for "offboard" Midway clash. The IJN should not automatically lose Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu, Soryu, while the USN still has Enterprise and Hornet as reinforcements.

There should be a facility in the campaign which can interpret altered odds (number of heavy CVs on either side) for offboard Midway debacle. Midway should still be weighted heavily on allied side to simulate the mauling wrought oupon IJN by the surprise acheived through code breaking, but if 5 IJN CVs were to go up against 2 USN CVs, perhaps the Japanese lose 2, and suffer 1 severley damaged, while the USN suffers the loss of 1 CV and the other severly damaged (but somehow scare the IJN away, thrwarting the landing), thereby somewhat abstractly dealing with whatever may have happenned to the assets utilized (and, or lost) in month of May 42, and reflecting this in the post Midway reinforcement pipeline.

The results of a May 42 confrontation should have as direct a result on the fortunes of war in the game as they did historically. If the Allies were to suffer a defeat in May, any offboard "Midway happens" odds will not give them parity in carriers, so no Guadalcanal landing. This of course lends the rest of the campaign to a holding action in South Pacific theatre against a Japanese thrust south, as you and I have suggested above. If altered odds can't be taken into consideration for the "Midway Happens" default, then it should be skipped and the assumption should be made that the Japanese go for the showdown in South Pacific as ADM King put a high priority on maintaining lines of communication along the Hawaii/Samoa and Samoa/Australia corridor.

_____________________________

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Sinjen)

Post #: 67

I understand - 4/8/2002 2:53:18 AM

mogami

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Hi, Ok I understand. I think any May start Camp should be non Midway. Or begin in mid May. With the Midway forces already underway and headed toward their historic fate. The Port Morsby and Coral Battles having already been resolved historicly.
Non Midway battles could start on May 1st with the Midway Operation never occuring. (the battle will transfer to South Pacific)

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Sinjen)

Post #: 68

- 4/8/2002 7:38:12 AM

Joel Billings

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Mogami, that's what we have. May 1st scenario assumes no Midway will ever happen. June 1st scenario assumes Coral Sea happened and Midway is about to happen historically. Allows for a slightly earlier start to the historical August 1 start. Japanese have few resources however during the June/July time period, while Allied forces start to build up.

Joel

(in reply to Sinjen)

Post #: 69

Top Pilots list - 4/11/2002 8:04:19 AM

jcjordan

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I been a lurker for a while since I saw WITP first announced & had a question. I saw your msg results string & was wondering since Gary/Keith are doing this, will there be a top pilots list like in BTR. I also saw by your results that PT boats are a little more useful than they were in PacWar. I can't wait for it to come out as well as WITP & I hope some of the changes made here make it back over to BTR, mostly the results of the day msgs.

(in reply to Sinjen)

Post #: 70

Top pilots, etc. - 4/12/2002 1:25:30 AM

Erik Rutins

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Indeed, there is most certainly a top pilot list that lets you sort them in a number of ways (kills, experience, current status, plane type, etc.)

Regards,

- Erik

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Erik Rutins
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