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Bombing Accuracy - 5/5/2008 11:26:17 AM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline 		I've been monitoring bombing accuracy and effectiveness in the RHS PBEM I'm involved in as the Japanese. I have seen the actual statistics, and that leads to the following comments:

1. Level bombing accuracy (about 10,000 feet) is about an order of magnitude too high against ships at sea. On the other hand, since it took 1-2 bombs to sink an AK in reality, the increased accuracy may not have as serious an effect as might be expected.
2. Torpedo accuracy is two to three times too high.
3. Dive bombing accuracy is two to three times too high.
4. Naval search missions (about 5,000 feet) are about an order of magnitude too effective at hitting ships at sea.
5. ASW search missions are about two orders of magnitude too effective at killing subs at sea and about an order of magnitude too effective at detecting subs.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com
Post #: 1
RE: Bombing Accuracy - 5/5/2008 12:11:10 PM   
Local Yokel


Posts: 1494
Joined: 2/4/2007
From: Somerset, U.K.
Status: offline 		By ASW search missions do you mean general Naval Search by aircraft, or the specific ASW air mission?

My entirely subjective impression is that submarines attain a firing position more frequently than they did IRL. Is that borne out by your stats? And what stats are these? Have you a link you can post?

_____________________________




(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 2
RE: Bombing Accuracy - 5/5/2008 1:17:28 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		Actually - we cannot do anyting much about bombing accuracy - since this is hard coded. We did set out to reduce the lethality of bombs - and succeeded in eliminating what WITP players called "nuclear bombardment" - both by battleships and bombers. BUT

we ALSO increased bomber loads and ranges - so THOSE things make bombers more effective - but we only did that because the loads were way to small (mainly for Allied heavy and medium bombers) - and ranges were too short (for all bombers).

ASW is something I believed we could not address - but finally I have taken two steps - first reducing effect values for DC - and now I am changing durability (having been shown a way it won't mess up production). Subs should be more survivable. But actual detection of subs won't change.

Again - things I did - combining ASW DC weapons into a single shot per ship - giving a lot more ASW units to both sides - adding ASW aircraft to both sides - adding a new ASW sensor and creating dual unit ships (twice as many ASW shots in effect) - means that ASW did become stronger in RHS. All these things needed doing - but it did make the problem of "subs to easy to detect" worse. Our planes - if you use ASW air units - actually carry ASW weapons and - often - sensors too.

But I did add radar to subs, and snorkels to Axis (and some Dutch) subs - mostly later in the war. These help subs survive better - but you won't see that in 1941.

Bombing accuracy is not horrible except at very low altitudes - Matrix did fix this long ago - but it probably remains too high. But RHS may see more hits (if a lot less effect) per raid because many bombers carry more bombs - albiet in many cases smaller bombs - and in all cases the bomb effects are not in the WITP system - but either square root of that - or even less for AP bombs. It is hard to konw exactly what is done too - because SOMETIMES code changes the bombs carried on its own. Another problem is that you don't know the ship speed or other factors of that sort (was it turning?) - so it is hard to say if the accuracy is too great or not. A slow target not maneuvering is not hard to hit - and later in the war US bombers became almost unable to miss a ship at sea (using tactics that permitted a hit anywhere along most of the line of flight of the bomb - somewhere along the line the target was likely to be - very different than trying to hit with a point). So it may be we have a compromise - too easy to score early - too hard later on. I need more statistics to be sure, but I am collecting them. We may get Matrix to change the code some day if we can indicate just what the PK should change by?

A problem we have is that the few things we can change have many impacts. A bomb or similar weapon is used on both land and naval targets, by bombers and dive bombers and fighter planes and patrol planes. The actual accuracy depends on altitude, attack profile, sighting arrangements, and external factors (visibility, fighter opposition, AA opposition). Hopefully the external factors are in the routines - but if we change a field - we change it for ALL forms of attack. Is ONE value right for them all? I doubt it. If not - how do we compromise?

For example - dive bombers should be more accurate than horizontal bombers (not using skip bombing- which is set for one altitude by WITP) -
but if they use the same bomb - which accuracy should the bomb have? I ASSUME the normal case is for horizontal bombers and dive bombers just multiply the effectiveness -- but nothing tells me that. It is a guess.




< Message edited by el cid again -- 5/5/2008 1:27:43 PM >

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 3
RE: Bombing Accuracy - 5/5/2008 2:06:30 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

I've been monitoring bombing accuracy and effectiveness in the RHS PBEM I'm involved in as the Japanese. I have seen the actual statistics, and that leads to the following comments:

1. Level bombing accuracy (about 10,000 feet) is about an order of magnitude too high against ships at sea. On the other hand, since it took 1-2 bombs to sink an AK in reality, the increased accuracy may not have as serious an effect as might be expected.
2. Torpedo accuracy is two to three times too high.
3. Dive bombing accuracy is two to three times too high.
4. Naval search missions (about 5,000 feet) are about an order of magnitude too effective at hitting ships at sea.
5. ASW search missions are about two orders of magnitude too effective at killing subs at sea and about an order of magnitude too effective at detecting subs.


Yep - pretty much all this is deliberate game design decisions from what i understand... more hits, but all the hits less effective (i.e. - torpedoes and bombs on ships)... this was (i believe) to make the game more exciting/enjoyable.

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 4
RE: Bombing Accuracy - 5/5/2008 2:34:58 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

I've been monitoring bombing accuracy and effectiveness in the RHS PBEM I'm involved in as the Japanese. I have seen the actual statistics, and that leads to the following comments:

1. Level bombing accuracy (about 10,000 feet) is about an order of magnitude too high against ships at sea. On the other hand, since it took 1-2 bombs to sink an AK in reality, the increased accuracy may not have as serious an effect as might be expected.
2. Torpedo accuracy is two to three times too high.
3. Dive bombing accuracy is two to three times too high.
4. Naval search missions (about 5,000 feet) are about an order of magnitude too effective at hitting ships at sea.
5. ASW search missions are about two orders of magnitude too effective at killing subs at sea and about an order of magnitude too effective at detecting subs.


1. agreed
2. if it´s two times too high, then it should equal out again, as ships can take at least twice as many torps as in RL
3. same as 1, ships can absorb far more bombs than in RL
4. agreed, high exp crews score bomb hits on and on
5. agreed, if LBA is massed somewhere you can sweep the sea of subs, no matter if Allied or Japanese

_____________________________


(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 5
RE: Bombing Accuracy - 5/5/2008 4:32:40 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline 		I saw an AK absorb 20 500 lb bomb hits this weekend and I didn't get the "XXXX Maru sinks" report that I expected.  Also watched an AP take 3 2000 lb bomb hits from B-24's out of Green Island and it didn't sink outright either.  I've had subs put three torpedoes and 8 4" shell hits into a common AK and it didn't sink; not a tanker, a run of the mill transport.

At the same time, I've seen 80+ experience TB squadrons not get a single solitary torpedo hit on a convoy full of 10 knot freighters.

These damage resistant ships create situations where "the convoy always gets through" no matter how thick the bombers are, if you've got a stubborn enough TF commander and are willing to lose 2-4 of the ships.  The AI sails these convoys right past my airbases surrounding Rabaul, unloads/picks up troops and supplies, and then sails away.  Sure he's lost some ships, but when there's 10-20 ships starting off in the convoy, so what if he loses a third of them as long as the supplies go in/troops get out?

With the airpower I've got around Rabaul (several air groups of experienced B-25's, B-17's and B-24's, plus landbased DB and TB squadrons), recreating "The Battle of the Bismarck Sea" should be taking place weekly in my game, but the way damage is assessed makes it impossible to do even once!

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 6
RE: Bombing Accuracy - 5/5/2008 7:14:25 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel

By ASW search missions do you mean general Naval Search by aircraft, or the specific ASW air mission?

My entirely subjective impression is that submarines attain a firing position more frequently than they did IRL. Is that borne out by your stats? And what stats are these? Have you a link you can post?


I assume they're ASW search missions given that bombs are even less effective at sinking subs than depth charges.

I don't know about firing positions--I never did that study for WWII data.

The stats were WWII OR data and some professional studies I did in the mid-1970s.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to Local Yokel)
Post #: 7
RE: Bombing Accuracy - 5/30/2008 10:52:19 AM   
greycat

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 5/30/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		I've just started playing WITP and the first thing that struck me was that naval bombing is far too accurate and that ships can absorb an unrealistic amount of punishment without sinking. This spoils my enjoyment a little bit, as it makes the game seem less true to history. Is this something that will be changed in the Admiral's Edition? Overall, though, a fine game.

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 8
RE: Bombing Accuracy - 5/30/2008 12:46:24 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

I saw an AK absorb 20 500 lb bomb hits this weekend and I didn't get the "XXXX Maru sinks" report that I expected. Also watched an AP take 3 2000 lb bomb hits from B-24's out of Green Island and it didn't sink outright either. I've had subs put three torpedoes and 8 4" shell hits into a common AK and it didn't sink; not a tanker, a run of the mill transport.

At the same time, I've seen 80+ experience TB squadrons not get a single solitary torpedo hit on a convoy full of 10 knot freighters.

These damage resistant ships create situations where "the convoy always gets through" no matter how thick the bombers are, if you've got a stubborn enough TF commander and are willing to lose 2-4 of the ships. The AI sails these convoys right past my airbases surrounding Rabaul, unloads/picks up troops and supplies, and then sails away. Sure he's lost some ships, but when there's 10-20 ships starting off in the convoy, so what if he loses a third of them as long as the supplies go in/troops get out?

With the airpower I've got around Rabaul (several air groups of experienced B-25's, B-17's and B-24's, plus landbased DB and TB squadrons), recreating "The Battle of the Bismarck Sea" should be taking place weekly in my game, but the way damage is assessed makes it impossible to do even once!


Dont bet the farm on it. Part of the "fog of war" in the game is sometimes ships dont show up as sunk until a month later.

(in reply to John Lansford)
Post #: 9
RE: Bombing Accuracy - 5/30/2008 3:19:42 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		What's that smell?  Dead horse...?



-F-

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(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 10
RE: Bombing Accuracy - 5/30/2008 7:53:25 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		greycat wrote:
"I've just started playing WITP and the first thing that struck me was that naval bombing is far too accurate and that ships can absorb an unrealistic amount of punishment without sinking. This spoils my enjoyment a little bit, as it makes the game seem less true to history. Is this something that will be changed in the Admiral's Edition? Overall, though, a fine game."



It appears that this was a design choice, in order to make the game more exciting. The game allows more bomb hits, but makes them less destructive. Thus we get more action with only (maybe) a little bit more in the way of sunk ships.

EDIT: I quoted the wrong post at first!

< Message edited by bradfordkay -- 5/30/2008 7:55:26 PM >

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

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Post #: 11
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