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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Mines (No John III)

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Mines (No John III) - 5/9/2008 10:45:53 PM

Canoerebel

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Gents,

Next turn my troops should capture heavily-mined Midway. Do those mines "change sides" when I take the hex? Or do they instead remain enemy mines?

Once I take Midway, I want to send all my damaged ships into port; unless, that is, they are still at risk to those mines.

IIRC, in Uncommon Valor, mines "changed sides" once you captured a hex.

Post #: 1

RE: Mines (No John III) - 5/9/2008 10:53:08 PM

wild_Willie2

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In WITP they still change sides.....

In a single day, they all get magically sweeped up into a big transport en dropped again at the same target in a completely new pattern so their "old" owner gets a nasty surprise once he enters that hex.....

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RE: Mines (No John III) - 5/9/2008 11:14:41 PM

Terminus

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RE: Mines (No John III) - 5/9/2008 11:15:09 PM

Q-Ball

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I have lost a Japanese DD to a type 93 Mine, from a bombardment run on a recently captured base. You can imagine how I feel about THAT on my ships sunk list!

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Post #: 4

RE: Mines (No John III) - 5/10/2008 12:03:16 AM

saj42

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

In WITP they still change sides.....

In a single day, they all get magically�sweeped up into a big transport en dropped again at the same target in a completely new pattern so their "old" owner gets a nasty surprise once he enters that hex.....

Almost....I reckon the defender leaves the only map to the minefields to be captured intact with the base. The new owner then knows where they are and the recently vanquished defender instantly forgets where he put them.....seems more plausable than moving them

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Post #: 5

RE: Mines (No John III) - 5/10/2008 5:22:51 AM

Minedog

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I have a doubt on this.. I feel sure I have captured a base as the US (Makin by recall) and still had Japanese mines in the hex

You can tell by the colour of the mine spot on the map. Your colour, your mines.

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Post #: 6

RE: Mines (No John III) - 5/10/2008 7:12:35 AM

Mike Scholl

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From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

In WITP they still change sides.....

In a single day, they all get magically�sweeped up into a big transport en dropped again at the same target in a completely new pattern so their "old" owner gets a nasty surprise once he enters that hex.....

Did anyone consider just how silly this is while the AE design features were being discussed?

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Post #: 7

RE: Mines (No John III) - 5/10/2008 6:45:57 PM

Dili

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If there are many it is no surprise that most of them are not sweeped.

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RE: Mines (No John III) - 5/10/2008 9:16:56 PM

Rainer

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With 1.806 (Allies against Japan AI) I mined several ports under Allied control.
When the Japanese attacked and occupied these ports the mines were still there.
I see - for a while - regularly messages like "DD xxx detects and destroys a mine", sometimes "APDxxx hits a mine" or "xxx Maru hits mine" (not very often).

So it looks like mines layed by your enemy in ports you plan to attack will stay unfriendly, even after you occupied the port.

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RE: Mines (No John III) - 5/11/2008 7:19:26 AM

Canoerebel

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I can now attest positively that the mines in a harbor do not "change sides" once you take the hex from the enemy. John had loaded up Midway with mines, I took the base, and then sent ships to the port under the assumption that my guys had mapped the minefield. They hadn't. A multitude of my transports took additional mine hits.

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Post #: 10

RE: Mines (No John III) - 5/13/2008 12:24:52 AM

crsutton

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I don't know if this is that far fetched. Most minefield locations were known by both sides as the locations for placing the mines were fairly obvious. (harbor entrances or choke points) The new owner of the port could just leave all the exsisting mines where they lay and create an effective defense by just relocating a few of the safe channels. It would not take that much effort and makes more sense than removing all of the mines. Why not?

I know it is not quite the way it should work but not improbable. I really don't know what the real policy was about known minefields in captured territory. I suspect that unless they proved to be a real obstacle or danger, that the mines were just left whey they lay and safe channels were swept-at least initially.

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RE: Mines (No John III) - 5/13/2008 1:30:45 AM

morganbj

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quote:

In WITP they still change sides.....

In a single day, they all get magically sweeped up into a big transport en dropped again at the same target in a completely new pattern so their "old" owner gets a nasty surprise once he enters that hex.....

Wow! That's cool! What ship does that? I'd like to read the history behind the technology on that ship. Or is it a whole class?

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Post #: 12

RE: Mines (No John III) - 5/13/2008 9:22:30 AM

histgamer

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I have always had mines remain for whatever side lost the base. never seen mines change sides.

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RE: Mines (No John III) - 5/13/2008 10:50:59 AM

wild_Willie2

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Ok, believe me when I say that mines DO change sides, try mining a base for defense before it gets captured. Once captured, your own mines will suddenly start hitting your own bombardment taskforces...

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RE: Mines (No John III) - 5/13/2008 11:41:17 AM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

Ok, believe me when I say that mines DO change sides, try mining a base for defense before it�gets captured. Once captured, your own mines will suddenly start hitting your own bombardment taskforces...

they hit your ships though they don�t change sides IMO. They hit both sides after a base is captured, they are not friendly mines for the new base owner.

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RE: Mines (No John III) - 5/13/2008 12:05:12 PM

wild_Willie2

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The "new" owner WILL see the amound of "friendly" mines at his new base, in the base info screen, after he captures that base. As these always are "frienly" mines, one could conclude that all mines simply changed sides.....

The hole mine "changing side" issue is rather complicated, but we can agree on the fact that after capture their original owner�suddenly and quite magically looses al maps/knowledge of the minefields.....

I think that this code should be changed, the "new" owner should have to clear all mines and lay new fields himself�without the old mines become a thread to their "old" owner..

Btw.

< Message edited by wild_Willie2 -- 5/13/2008 12:08:58 PM >

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RE: Mines (No John III) - 5/13/2008 1:16:15 PM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

The "new" owner WILL see the amound of "friendly" mines at his new base, in the base info screen, after he captures that base. As these always are "frienly" mines, one could conclude that all mines simply changed sides.....

The hole mine "changing side" issue is rather complicated, but we can agree on the fact that after capture their original owner�suddenly and quite magically looses al maps/knowledge of the minefields.....

I think that this code should be changed, the "new" owner should have to clear all mines and lay new fields himself�without the old mines become a thread to their "old" owner..

Btw.

no this is not true anymore as it has been changed with some recent patch.

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RE: Mines (No John III) - 5/13/2008 1:35:42 PM

wild_Willie2

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I had a quick look at all the patches upto 1.804 and could't find anything about minefields, or minefield ownerships.

Previous patches only changed the way subs and ML's reload mines, that's it.....

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RE: Mines (No John III) - 5/13/2008 2:09:34 PM

rtrapasso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainer

With 1.806 (Allies against Japan AI) I mined several ports under Allied control.
When the Japanese attacked and occupied these ports the mines were still there.
I see - for a while - regularly messages like "DD xxx detects and destroys a mine", sometimes "APDxxx hits a mine" or "xxx Maru hits mine" (not very often).

So it looks like mines layed by your enemy in ports you plan to attack will stay unfriendly, even after you occupied the port.

Suggestive - but doesn't prove it... you don't know if the AI had put its OWN mines in the uncaptured base... those mines are deadly to both sides, so unless you can tell what mines are being swept up...

You SHOULD be able to tell what mines are striking (and sinking) the enemy ships - you'll see a report scroll "AP Doomu Maru hits type XXXX mine" or something. This should let you know whose mines are doing the damage.

They way i understand the mine thing is that the DO switch sides - but perhaps not immediately... they seem to do damage for a while, (and are swept for a while) but then it seems to stop and the capturing side has SOME mines.

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RE: Mines (No John III) - 5/13/2008 2:10:20 PM

Canoerebel

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This has already been answered above, but I think some of the recent posters may have missed it.

Mines do NOT change sides when a port is captured.

I started this post just after the Allies had recaptured Midway, which had been heavily mined by the Japs. I had a bunch of damaged transports and wanted to know whether mines "changed sides" before I sent those transports to Midway. The consensus at the beginning of this thread was that they DID change sides, but the consensus was WRONG. I sent those transports to Midway and they hit scores of mines. Instead of losing just the two transports mortally wounded in the initial invasion, I ended up losing about 20.

Mines at a newly captured base do NOT change sides. They remain hostile to the side capturing the base, and from what I am reading in here they also become hostile to the side that laid them.

(in reply to wild_Willie2)

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RE: Mines (No John III) - 5/13/2008 2:19:07 PM

rtrapasso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

This has already been answered above, but I think some of the recent posters may have missed it.

Mines do NOT change sides when a port is captured.

I started this post just after the Allies had recaptured Midway, which had been heavily mined by the Japs. I had a bunch of damaged transports and wanted to know whether mines "changed sides" before I sent those transports to Midway. The consensus at the beginning of this thread was that they DID change sides, but the consensus was WRONG. I sent those transports to Midway and they hit scores of mines. Instead of losing just the two transports mortally wounded in the initial invasion, I ended up losing about 20.

Mines at a newly captured base do NOT change sides. They remain hostile to the side capturing the base, and from what I am reading in here they also become hostile to the side that laid them.

See my post above - they change sides EVENTUALLY, but not immediately. Often, the capturing player will sweep them all up before the change is complete... at least this is what SEEMS to happen.

Best to treat them as hostile, however, and they certainly don't become friendly right away...

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RE: Mines (No John III) - 5/13/2008 3:23:28 PM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

I had a quick look at all the patches upto 1.804 and could't find anything about minefields, or minefield ownerships.

Previous patches�only changed the way subs and ML's reload mines, that's it.....

then it must have been implemented with 1.806. If you conquer a base where are still enemy mines you DO NOT see any mines in the base intel screen.

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RE: Mines (No John III) - 5/13/2008 3:26:50 PM

rtrapasso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

I had a quick look at all the patches upto 1.804 and could't find anything about minefields, or minefield ownerships.

Previous patches only changed the way subs and ML's reload mines, that's it.....

then it must have been implemented with 1.806. If you conquer a base where are still enemy mines you DO NOT see any mines in the base intel screen.

This might be possible - i have seen mines convert to "friendly" in earlier versions of the game, but i haven't (yet) captured an enemy base with mines (late March 1942 as Allies)...

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Post #: 23

RE: Mines (No John III) - 5/13/2008 3:36:12 PM

Mike Solli

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

Ok, believe me when I say that mines DO change sides, try mining a base for defense before it�gets captured. Once captured, your own mines will suddenly start hitting your own bombardment taskforces...

That's because minefields that you lay are defensive as long as you own the port and offensive if you don't own the port (or are sown in a non-port hex). You can't hit one of your defensive minefields, but you can hit one of your offensive minefields. They change from defensive to offensive when the enemy takes the base with the defensive minefield.

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