Aircraft won't start for a Ground Strike Mission

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Modern] >> Harpoon 3 - Advanced Naval Warfare >> Harpoon 3 ANW Support >> Aircraft won't start for a Ground Strike Mission

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Aircraft won't start for a Ground Strike Mission - 5/12/2008 5:01:28 PM

houseband

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Joined: 5/11/2008
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Hi

I play on H3 3.9.2 - Scenario "Fish in a barrell".

When I create missions for the destruction of the enemy basis I define one mission for the sam site in Base 1, then another mission for the hangars in this Base and so on.

Afterwards I assign aircrafts for the seperate missions.

But no aircraft starts....I wait and wait and wait....but no aircraft won't start. I wait always more than an hour of gametime....nothing happens.

What the hell is wrong?

Post #: 1

RE: Aircraft won't start for a Ground Strike Mission - 5/12/2008 5:12:20 PM

Shemar

Posts: 205
Joined: 1/25/2008
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Can you post your scenario somewhere so we can take a look?

Are you sure the side that is doing the air strike has actually located the target? You can verify that in the scenario editor by turning off "View All".

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Post #: 2

RE: Aircraft won't start for a Ground Strike Mission - 5/12/2008 5:15:39 PM

houseband

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Joined: 5/11/2008
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Hi

It's the standard scenario in the standard database of H3 ANW. I had this problem also in the HUD3 database and thought it would be better to change to the standard database.

So it is nothing special.

Cheers

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Post #: 3

RE: Aircraft won't start for a Ground Strike Mission - 5/12/2008 7:39:42 PM

Shemar

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Are you sure the aircraft you assign have loaded weapons capable of hitting their assigned targets?

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Post #: 4

RE: Aircraft won't start for a Ground Strike Mission - 5/12/2008 8:59:02 PM

houseband

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Hi Shemar

Yes for the attack on the hangars I use Intruders with IB
For attack on the Radar sites I use Prowler with amraam

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Post #: 5

RE: Aircraft won't start for a Ground Strike Mission - 5/12/2008 9:42:59 PM

rsharp@advancedgamin

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I would check that the aircraft have the range to reach the targets. I'll look into this further.

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Advanced Gaming Systems
Home of Computer Harpoon

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Post #: 6

RE: Harpoon - 5/12/2008 9:45:04 PM

hermanhum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: houseband

For attack on the Radar sites I use Prowler with amraam

I believe that I may have a partial explanation for some of the behaviour. I ran the scenario in GE 3.9.2 with the ODb and have believe that houseband has mistakenly referred to the HARM missile as an AMRAAM. (AMRAAM is only for air-to-air combat).

After opening the scenario in the GE, I selected the CVBG and hit the Air Ops button. Attached is the display for the Prowler. It supposedly carries 2 drop tanks, 2 jamming pods, and 1 HARM missile.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 7

RE: Harpoon - 5/12/2008 9:48:14 PM

hermanhum

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However, when you select the Ready button for this aircraft, you will see that no such loadout exists. Therefore, if this plane were to be launched manually, it would appear with a 'minimal loadout' since the current loadout does not exist for this particular plane. Since the plane has no weapons capable of hitting the target, the strike may not be launching.

This does not explain everything, but it is one possible explanation for this problem. I believe that this problem has already been reported as:

Wrong loadout descriptions

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 8

RE: Harpoon - 5/12/2008 10:00:51 PM

hermanhum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rsharp@advancedgamin

I would check that the aircraft have the range to reach the targets.

I did check and this is the correct explanation.

During my test run in 392 GE and ODb, the range of the Intruder is listed as 553nm. The closest target to my CVBG was 670nm. (The CVBG can start at different points.) The Intruders were unable to launch since the range was too great. I added four Vikings to the strike and they promptly launched because they had a range of 840nm.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 9

RE: Harpoon - 5/12/2008 10:12:53 PM

rsharp@advancedgamin

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Accepting that as the correct explanation, I'd say the GE should report to the user that it will not launch a strike group because of inadequate range.

I'll see what I can do.

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Russell
Advanced Gaming Systems
Home of Computer Harpoon

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Post #: 10

RE: Harpoon - 5/12/2008 10:29:23 PM

houseband

Posts: 15
Joined: 5/11/2008
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Hej guys!

First of all @herman: You were right. Was a mistake. I wanted to write HARM and not Amraam.

I am absolutely overwhelmed of the great and fast support!!! Thank you, thank you very much!!!

In fact, in this scenario it was a mistake of me not to check the range of my aircrafts. But on the other side - shouldn't give the program an information that the range of the aircrafts is not sufficent?

Now I understand why in only one of these numerous tries the aircrafts launched (because I had choosen Vikings, just for fun).

Because of this answer I will have to change my tactics!

Cheers

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Post #: 11

RE: Harpoon - 5/12/2008 10:51:43 PM

hermanhum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: houseband

But on the other side - shouldn't give the program an information that the range of the aircrafts is not sufficent?

This may not lead to the best results, either. Allow me to pose a hypothetical situation. A CVBG is currently thousands of miles away and sets up the strike missions so that as soon as it gets into range, the missions launch. If a warning message appears to say that the mission is currently out of range when the mission is first created, that might be okay. However, if that message constantly repeats as the CVBG sails towards its target, then it can quickly become annoying. Or, if the message appears and then the strike mission is somehow then immediately deleted or altered because of it, that would be quite detrimental. Also, another potential problem is the fact that many different types of aircraft can be assigned to the same mission.

To continue from the example encountered by houseband, what should happen if the both the Vikings and Intruders were assigned to the same mission? One would be in range and the other would be outside of range. A quick, one-time reminder that the Intruders are out of range when the mission is first created may be helpful, but, IMO, this one could just as well be part of the learning curve for new players. A mention in the manual might be far simpler and easier than a programming solution.

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Post #: 12

RE: Harpoon - 5/12/2008 11:17:11 PM

houseband

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Yes I agree with you!

Please let me ask one more question:

In the manual there is no description about the function "Focused Strike". What does that mean?

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Post #: 13

RE: Harpoon - 5/12/2008 11:22:46 PM

hermanhum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: houseband

In the manual there is no description about the function "Focused Strike". What does that mean?

I, too, have sought such a definition and explanation of its function and not found it in either the manual or the online Wiki documentation. If one exists, I hope that someone will provide an appropriate link. I have been told, unofficially, that it is for use with large air strikes.

The current air strike behaviour has planes forming up in groups of 4 before they head off towards their target. I tested and found that if Focused Strike enabled, the air groups will form up in groups of up to 24 planes before they head towards the target. This is based on empirical observation, alone. I don't know what the official behaviour is, either.

< Message edited by hermanhum -- 5/12/2008 11:23:56 PM >

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Post #: 14

RE: Harpoon - 5/12/2008 11:32:06 PM

houseband

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I asumed already something like this. Because in the manual there is mentioned that usually the AI divides strike missions up into smaller airplane groups. Especially if the planes have several loadouts (ATA, Bombing). And thought that focused strike might make them all launch in one big group (just like in HCE).

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RE: Harpoon - 5/12/2008 11:42:24 PM

hermanhum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: houseband

I asumed already something like this. Because in the manual there is mentioned that usually the AI divides strike missions up into smaller airplane groups. Especially if the planes have several loadouts (ATA, Bombing). And thought that focused strike might make them all launch in one big group (just like in HCE).

No, this was not the behaviour I observed. If the planes are different loadouts, they will still launch in their separate groups. My observation only pertained to groups of identical aircraft. i.e. same exact aircraft with the same exact loadout.

Therefore, if there are 12 planes with bombs and 4 with missiles and all 16 have been assigned to the same Focused Strike mission, the group of 12 planes will still be launching when the group of 4 have already formed up and started moving towards the target.

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Post #: 16

RE: Harpoon - 5/13/2008 2:56:57 AM

rsharp@advancedgamin

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This explanation is official but we might revise it to make it as accurate as possible. It will go into our wiki.

The flagged strike mission will launch more than 4 planes to an airgroup if they have the same loadout. Up to 24 planes will be launched in a single group. The craft on the flagged mission will ignore other targets that present themselves unless it has weapons that are not capable versus the mission target. Weapons not capable against the mission target can be used such as AAM on a ground strike.

The strike units will launch all in-range weapons at the mission target, not using normal allocation logic. Once the target is destroyed and all relevant weapons expended, the mission is over and the planes will return to base. If weapons applicable to the strike mission remain, the strike craft pick available targets before RTB.

Unflagged missions will take out targets of opportunity on the way there and on the way back and only launch 4 planes to a group.

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Russell
Advanced Gaming Systems
Home of Computer Harpoon

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Post #: 17

RE: Harpoon - 5/14/2008 12:10:41 PM

hermanhum

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Joined: 9/21/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rsharp@advancedgamin

I'd say the GE should report to the user that it will not launch a strike group because of inadequate range.

I'll see what I can do.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1803504

quote:

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

This may not lead to the best results, either. Allow me to pose a hypothetical situation. A CVBG is currently thousands of miles away and sets up the strike missions so that as soon as it gets into range, the missions launch. If a warning message appears to say that the mission is currently out of range when the mission is first created, that might be okay. However, if that message constantly repeats as the CVBG sails towards its target, then it can quickly become annoying. Or, if the message appears and then the strike mission is somehow then immediately deleted or altered because of it, that would be quite detrimental. Also, another potential problem is the fact that many different types of aircraft can be assigned to the same mission.

To continue from the example encountered by houseband, what should happen if the both the Vikings and Intruders were assigned to the same mission? One would be in range and the other would be outside of range. A quick, one-time reminder that the Intruders are out of range when the mission is first created may be helpful, but, IMO, this one could just as well be part of the learning curve for new players. A mention in the manual might be far simpler and easier than a programming solution.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1803538

One consideration I forgot to mention previously was to consider the assignment of aircraft and assets from various locations. There are already many scenarios that do this. For example, they set up one strike mission against a target (or multiple targets) and aircraft are assigned from various bases throughout a country and aircraft carriers. This means that the Game Engine would need to calculate distances between multiple revetments/hangars to the various target(s). The number of calculations for even a small number of launching units vs. an array of potential targets can be quite staggering and a serious drag on the CPU since it cannot be a one-time basis and might need constant re-calculation.

In summary, the addition of a report to the user warning about insufficient range may be marginally useful, but the number of potential obstacles such as:

1) Variable locations
2) Variable distances
3) Variable ranges of aircraft
4) Multiple targets
5) High CPU demand

seems pretty significant. Although they are probably not insurmountable, the potential benefit does seem quite low when compared to the potential detriment.

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Post #: 18

RE: Harpoon - 5/14/2008 7:55:43 PM

rsharp@advancedgamin

Posts: 430
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Getting a little ahead of ourselves.

#1 The GE already calculates if the planes can reach the target. Presumably that's why it's not launching them. I've yet to confirm that in the code.
#2 The message will only be displayed on mission activation (after any delay)
#3 We will measure the impact it will have on the CPU.

Thanks for your input,

_____________________________

Russell
Advanced Gaming Systems
Home of Computer Harpoon

(in reply to hermanhum)

Post #: 19

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Modern] >> Harpoon 3 - Advanced Naval Warfare >> Harpoon 3 ANW Support >> Aircraft won't start for a Ground Strike Mission

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