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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/27/2008 2:57:36 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
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Good morning - Tithe.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


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Post #: 7321
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/27/2008 3:20:29 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline
Just saw that Paul Newman died of cancer at 83. 

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 7322
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/27/2008 3:24:08 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
He'd been very ill for a very long time. R.I.P.

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Post #: 7323
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/27/2008 3:49:50 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

Just saw that Paul Newman died of cancer at 83. 




BTW, by coincidance I just saw that on our national TV there was pre-scheduled re-run of one of the Elizabeth Taylor movies during the lunchtime and he was in the movie as well...


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

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P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 7324
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/27/2008 3:50:40 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

Mike, can you please tell us what is happening with US banks (in layman terms)?


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 7325
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/27/2008 4:13:45 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
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In layman's terms, they're exploding and crashing in flames.

Remember the dot-com bubble? This is the housing bubble, and its explosion will have far worse consequences.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 7326
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/27/2008 4:22:39 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

In layman's terms, they're exploding and crashing in flames.

Remember the dot-com bubble? This is the housing bubble, and its explosion will have far worse consequences.


Yes... and in England long long time ago there was the "South Seas Bubble" (I think that was the first "bubble")...

But how is this affecting everyday life of ordinary people in USA?

Are (or will there be) there problems with credit cards and cahs flow?


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
I have relatives in USA but they are all doctors.

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 7327
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/27/2008 4:35:54 PM   
Terminus


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Joined: 4/23/2005
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Too early to tell how far this will go, but plenty of people with mortgages(house loans) are in big, big trouble.

Of course, it's entirely unlikely that any of the bank bosses will lose THEIR houses...

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 7328
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/27/2008 4:39:21 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

Mike, can you please tell us what is happening with US banks (in layman terms)?


Leo "Apollo11"


Wow, that's a tough one, Leo. I try to pay attention, but I'm surely not an expert. While trying not to interject political ideas of my own, here's the summary as I understand it.

House prices in many parts of the country have been skyrocketing for several years. Many, many, many "creative" loans were made for mortgages to people who really couldn't afford those expensive houses. A lot of those mortgages were "variable rate", "interest only", or other types which become much more expensive after the first few years. As long as house prices continued to increase, everything was fine, because a homeowner would sell his house for a profit before the terms of the loan became too expensive.

Then house prices started to drop in many parts of the country.

Now, people who in my opinion used very poor judgment by agreeing to take on these creative loans started to not be able to sell their houses for a profit. They had a choice of selling the house for a loss, or starting to make much higher monthly payments on the loans. A lot of these homeowners have fallen behind on their payments, or defaulted completely, and the banks are forced to foreclose on the homes, which means the banks take possession of the house and try to sell it. Of course, the banks can't sell the houses for a profit, either.

That is what led up to the current situation. What has happened now, mainly because of the large default rates on mortgage loans, is that the banks are seeing their assets lose value, or become completely worthless. As these loans, which the banks show as assets since they are usually a source of income for the banks, started losing value, the overall asset value of the banks has dropped. They are forced to write off these bad loans and remove them from their official asset list. This has happened to almost all of the banks, since all of them enjoyed many years of income from these loans.

Banks are required to maintain a certain ratio of assets to the amount of money they lend out. I do not know the specific regulations in this area, but I know that as the assets of the banks has dropped recently, they have been forced to come up with more cash to keep within the legal ratio limits. If they do not, they are not able to loan more money to individuals, companies, government agencies to build roads, etc, or to other banks. The current "crisis" is that system wide, the banks have run out of money that they can lend, because their assets have dropped quickly. The massive federal government "bail out" package that they are currently working on is designed to provide a boost to the assets of banks and others, which will allow them to start lending money again.

Anyone with more insight, please feel free to contribute or correct my attempt at an explanation.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 7329
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/27/2008 4:45:55 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Mike, can you please tell us what is happening with US banks (in layman terms)?


Wow, that's a tough one, Leo. I try to pay attention, but I'm surely not an expert. While trying not to interject political ideas of my own, here's the summary as I understand it.

House prices in many parts of the country have been skyrocketing for several years. Many, many, many "creative" loans were made for mortgages to people who really couldn't afford those expensive houses. A lot of those mortgages were "variable rate", "interest only", or other types which become much more expensive after the first few years. As long as house prices continued to increase, everything was fine, because a homeowner would sell his house for a profit before the terms of the loan became too expensive.

Then house prices started to drop in many parts of the country.

Now, people who in my opinion used very poor judgment by agreeing to take on these creative loans started to not be able to sell their houses for a profit. They had a choice of selling the house for a loss, or starting to make much higher monthly payments on the loans. A lot of these homeowners have fallen behind on their payments, or defaulted completely, and the banks are forced to foreclose on the homes, which means the banks take possession of the house and try to sell it. Of course, the banks can't sell the houses for a profit, either.

That is what led up to the current situation. What has happened now, mainly because of the large default rates on mortgage loans, is that the banks are seeing their assets lose value, or become completely worthless. As these loans, which the banks show as assets since they are usually a source of income for the banks, started losing value, the overall asset value of the banks has dropped. They are forced to write off these bad loans and remove them from their official asset list. This has happened to almost all of the banks, since all of them enjoyed many years of income from these loans.

Banks are required to maintain a certain ratio of assets to the amount of money they lend out. I do not know the specific regulations in this area, but I know that as the assets of the banks has dropped recently, they have been forced to come up with more cash to keep within the legal ratio limits. If they do not, they are not able to loan more money to individuals, companies, government agencies to build roads, etc, or to other banks. The current "crisis" is that system wide, the banks have run out of money that they can lend, because their assets have dropped quickly. The massive federal government "bail out" package that they are currently working on is designed to provide a boost to the assets of banks and others, which will allow them to start lending money again.

Anyone with more insight, please feel free to contribute or correct my attempt at an explanation.


Thanks a lot Mike - much appreciated (I knew bits and pieces but your explanation sorted almost all my questions)!

BTW, I understand that the first crysis was primarily with banks that provided such loans for homes (and in UK similar situation happened) - but how did the big Wall Streen investment banks come into play (and trouble)?

This is what is so worrisome...


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 7330
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/27/2008 4:58:58 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

In layman's terms, they're exploding and crashing in flames.

Remember the dot-com bubble? This is the housing bubble, and its explosion will have far worse consequences.


Yes... and in England long long time ago there was the "South Seas Bubble" (I think that was the first "bubble")...

But how is this affecting everyday life of ordinary people in USA?

Are (or will there be) there problems with credit cards and cahs flow?


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
I have relatives in USA but they are all doctors.


How it all will affect ordinary people is a different story.

People who do not have variable rate, interest only, or other loans designed to allow them to purchase more house than they can afford, are not in any trouble of losing their homes. Because of the house price slump, people who are forced to move due to jobs, etc, are having a very hard time, since they can't buy a new house where they are moving, until they are able to sell their old house.

Many banks are going out of business, but almost no "ordinary" people are losing money they have deposited with these banks, since up to $100,000 is insured by the federal government. Stockholders of these banks, and many other companies because of the overall impact on the stock markets, are losing money. There are no problems with people still getting new credit cards, or using credit cards, since this is one of the very most profitable products that the banks can sell. Overall, interest rates are going up, which makes everything that much more expensive.

In general, our American society is finally starting to deal with the large problems caused by "living beyond our means".

Apologies in advance, but I need to step onto my political soapbox for a minute:

There is a lot of talk around the country right now about providing relief or financial support to homeowners who are now struggling to keep their houses when they can't afford the payments. Over the last several years, greed has led to thousands of companies fraudulently selling mortgages to people, who then find the loan they signed is different from what they were told. I am 100% in favor of prosecuting these criminals and providing aid to the true, honest victims of their actions to help them keep their homes.

I don't know the statistics exactly, but I am sure these fraudulent loans are less than 10% of the total number of home loans that are in trouble now. More than 90% of the people who are now having trouble keeping their homes are NOT victims. They are people who used very poor judgment when signing "creative" loans, and purchased way more house than they could afford. It may sound harsh, but I should not have to pay one penny of my tax money to bail out these people.

I now humbly step down off of my soapbox and beg my Brothers' forgiveness for venting in this most holy of gathering places.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 7331
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/27/2008 5:02:59 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Mike, can you please tell us what is happening with US banks (in layman terms)?


snip



Thanks a lot Mike - much appreciated (I knew bits and pieces but your explanation sorted almost all my questions)!

BTW, I understand that the first crysis was primarily with banks that provided such loans for homes (and in UK similar situation happened) - but how did the big Wall Streen investment banks come into play (and trouble)?

This is what is so worrisome...

Leo "Apollo11"


Leo, what has happened here, is that these mortgage loans were very profitable for the banks for many years, while the housing market was still going up. The big investment banks, and the two huge "quasi-government" agencies, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, bought these loans from smaller banks, and sold them in huge bundles to larger investors. Again, this was all great while the housing market roller coaster was still going up. Once it started going down again, this whole house of cards has tumbled down.

Edit: nested quotes got me.

< Message edited by USS America -- 9/27/2008 5:06:51 PM >


_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 7332
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/27/2008 5:04:34 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
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In the US , most banks and mortgage companies act as mortgage originators . They will service the loan , but almost all mortgages and loans are sold on what is commonly called the secondary markets. That means small banks and credit unions hold very little of the debt (such loans are called portfolio loans , and are of the absolute best quality--20% cash down , etc.).. Organizations like Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac are creations of the US government to facilitate these sales, which are bought by investors. Hence the entrance of the wall street mega banks. Supposedly the quasi government loans are supposed to be of a high standard (as a Real estate Broker of the 1980's I found these loans to generally not to be worth the excesive paperwork- I simply worked with the conventional loan-20% down people). In the 1990's the standards were dropped down to ridiculously easy standards. The theory was to allow "marginal buyers", that is to say "almost qualifed buyers" qualify. In my humble opion , once you begin to lower standards , there is not much stopping the decline.   And starting in the 1990's , bankers began seeing credit as capital (Cash or collateral) , and to view equity as money in the bank.

As a broker , I often heard "speculators" , that is people who would buy houses , then "flip" them (almost imediately re-sell them ) that real estate was the "best investment" as real estate never  declines. Actually , it does on a regional basis. In the 1980's , New England took a nose dive , for exactly the reason it has now.  If you purchase a home as a home , that is a place to live in , rather than a short term investment , you will seldom go wrong (as over the long term you will ride out the market's ups and downs).  If you get greedy , well , unless the Federal government bails you out, you pay the penalty.

_____________________________


(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 7333
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/27/2008 5:05:52 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

In layman's terms, they're exploding and crashing in flames.

Remember the dot-com bubble? This is the housing bubble, and its explosion will have far worse consequences.


Yes... and in England long long time ago there was the "South Seas Bubble" (I think that was the first "bubble")...

But how is this affecting everyday life of ordinary people in USA?

Are (or will there be) there problems with credit cards and cahs flow?


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
I have relatives in USA but they are all doctors.


How it all will affect ordinary people is a different story.

People who do not have variable rate, interest only, or other loans designed to allow them to purchase more house than they can afford, are not in any trouble of losing their homes. Because of the house price slump, people who are forced to move due to jobs, etc, are having a very hard time, since they can't buy a new house where they are moving, until they are able to sell their old house.

Many banks are going out of business, but almost no "ordinary" people are losing money they have deposited with these banks, since up to $100,000 is insured by the federal government. Stockholders of these banks, and many other companies because of the overall impact on the stock markets, are losing money. There are no problems with people still getting new credit cards, or using credit cards, since this is one of the very most profitable products that the banks can sell. Overall, interest rates are going up, which makes everything that much more expensive.

In general, our American society is finally starting to deal with the large problems caused by "living beyond our means".

Apologies in advance, but I need to step onto my political soapbox for a minute:

There is a lot of talk around the country right now about providing relief or financial support to homeowners who are now struggling to keep their houses when they can't afford the payments. Over the last several years, greed has led to thousands of companies fraudulently selling mortgages to people, who then find the loan they signed is different from what they were told. I am 100% in favor of prosecuting these criminals and providing aid to the true, honest victims of their actions to help them keep their homes.

I don't know the statistics exactly, but I am sure these fraudulent loans are less than 10% of the total number of home loans that are in trouble now. More than 90% of the people who are now having trouble keeping their homes are NOT victims. They are people who used very poor judgment when signing "creative" loans, and purchased way more house than they could afford. It may sound harsh, but I should not have to pay one penny of my tax money to bail out these people.

I now humbly step down off of my soapbox and beg my Brothers' forgiveness for venting in this most holy of gathering places.



Here , here! Well spoken Brother! Ever consider standing for public office?

_____________________________


(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 7334
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/27/2008 5:06:06 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Too early to tell how far this will go, but plenty of people with mortgages(house loans) are in big, big trouble.

Of course, it's entirely unlikely that any of the bank bosses will lose THEIR houses...


T, you're very correct that most of the bank bosses, and other corporate CEO's will not lost THEIR houses. Unless they end up in prison. Trust me, there will be more than a couple of people who end up in prison over this, including a couple of the uber-greedy CEO's.

Then again, I guarantee that not a single one of these bank CEO's has a variable rate or interest only mortgage.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 7335
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/27/2008 5:06:20 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
Oh , and by the way ,  Tithe

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Post #: 7336
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/27/2008 5:10:52 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


Here , here! Well spoken Brother! Ever consider standing for public office?


Thanks, Steve, but I'm too smart to end up running for any public office. (Not that I'm all that smart, but I'm smart enough to know that. )

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 7337
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/27/2008 7:06:05 PM   
Onime No Kyo


Posts: 16842
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Status: offline
Rainy Saturday Tithe.

How is everyone?

_____________________________

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Post #: 7338
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/27/2008 7:11:42 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

Rainy Saturday Tithe.

How is everyone?



Great! , Especially now that the prodigal son has returned! Good to hear from you!

_____________________________


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Post #: 7339
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/27/2008 7:56:58 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
ZOING!(TM) because it'll never go out of style...

_____________________________

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Post #: 7340
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/27/2008 7:58:07 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

Thanks Mike and Steve!


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 7341
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/27/2008 8:17:07 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

Thanks Mike and Steve!


Leo "Apollo11"


You're very welcome Leo. But as with all political discussions, there are at least two sides. While Milke and I agree (not too surprising , considering our similar backgrounds), I'm sure there are some "investors" who disagree with us.

_____________________________


(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 7342
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/27/2008 8:50:09 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

Just saw that Paul Newman died of cancer at 83. 




BTW, by coincidance I just saw that on our national TV there was pre-scheduled re-run of one of the Elizabeth Taylor movies during the lunchtime and he was in the movie as well...


I just learned that Paul Newman was in USN during WWII and that we has tail gunner on carreir based Avenger...


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
The movie this afternnon was "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof"...

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 7343
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/27/2008 10:00:41 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Thanks Mike and Steve!


You're very welcome Leo. But as with all political discussions, there are at least two sides. While Milke and I agree (not too surprising , considering our similar backgrounds), I'm sure there are some "investors" who disagree with us.


Just one more thing to ask... are the people who are paying back the loans know to whom exactly their loan was "sold" or they always pay to the bank (usually small in their place) and then bank forwards the money to the end loan owner?


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 7344
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/27/2008 10:05:00 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

Zsssssssssss time...


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

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P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 7345
LOG! - 9/28/2008 1:07:04 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ZOING!(TM) because it'll never go out of style...


Neither does LOG!




_____________________________


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Post #: 7346
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/28/2008 1:32:34 AM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Thanks Mike and Steve!


You're very welcome Leo. But as with all political discussions, there are at least two sides. While Milke and I agree (not too surprising , considering our similar backgrounds), I'm sure there are some "investors" who disagree with us.


Just one more thing to ask... are the people who are paying back the loans know to whom exactly their loan was "sold" or they always pay to the bank (usually small in their place) and then bank forwards the money to the end loan owner?


Leo "Apollo11"

Generally the bank service the loan , that is to say acts as the agent for the purchaser, but mortgage companies send you an address to forward your payment to the new owner.

_____________________________


(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 7347
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/28/2008 7:31:17 AM   
Dixie


Posts: 10303
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From: UK
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It's early in the morning* and no-one is around....

So it's time for bed I think


*Or very late in my 'day'


_____________________________



Bigger boys stole my sig

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 7348
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/28/2008 8:16:39 AM   
goodboyladdie


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Morning Martin

Have they got you working nights again?

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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 9/28/2008 10:37:55 AM   
Terminus


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Tithe...

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We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

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