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- 4/4/2002 6:37:33 AM

Arralen

Posts: 827
Joined: 5/21/2000
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HEAT
Heat doesn't have a reduced range in SPWAW as APCR does.
PenHEAT values are correct.

Support tanks
Number of HEAT rounds is fairly low, so better do not waist any. Tank-hunting isn't advisable with tanks/SPguns which don't have AP ammo but HEAT only.
Play with all realism settings ON, and you'll find yourself with 2..4 rounds of HEAT mostly

KV-2
Text is plaing wrong - portraited in the game is the KV-2, a bunker/MG-nest-buster which was at first equipped with 122, than with 152mm L/20 how (short-barrel) gun.
As the huge turret was traversed by hand, turning it was only possible on level ground.

PenHE
Don't confuse Arty Shells with Tank Shells - those field guns fire shells with a much higher muzzle velocity and much sturdier casing than those shells fired from the short-barreled tank guns.
There are some exceptions, though - the (I)SU-152 mounted real arty pieces (122 L/43; 152.4L/32) ; check out
http://www.skalman.nu/soviet/ww2-equipment-selfprop-su152.htm
However, AP was still used against (heavy) tanks...

Stefan

(in reply to Svennemir)

Post #: 31

- 4/4/2002 7:14:48 AM

White Phosphorus

Posts: 16
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Orlando, FL
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How low does the rate of fire go?

(in reply to Svennemir)

Post #: 32

- 4/4/2002 7:32:55 AM

Charles2222

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Joined: 3/12/2001
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Paul Vebber:

quote:

Every fort has a "front turret" armor that is no more than about 100mm, the SturmTigers HE pen is 108 so if it hits in the top or front turret, then it will have a good chance to penetrate. The best Soviet front turret on a fort is 76 I believe, so hit it in the "front turret" and it will penetrate. Given the real world accuracy of these things just getting it routinely land in the hex you want is better than a real world commander would generally get. The game rate of fire is MUCH greater than real life too.

I see your point, that it least can get the USSR ones, but there's more than USSR ones to destroy. In any case, perhaps your estimate that of 76 is a good one in reference to the FT of any nation.

Couldn't this gun fire direct? Pathetically, maybe, such as the talk we used to hear of firing mortars and hitting tanks with them, but still, it could and was done I'd imagine, particularly when we're talking about using them on forts (but then maybe bombarding was more used).

Part of my point has turned out not to be that the Sturmtiger isn't modeled very well for fort-busting, but that indeed that may be true for all fort-busters. So their true penetration and still have them able to fire direct and not target AFVs, directly? Note one thing about the Sturmtiger, hitting a fort with bombardment may not be accurate enough for ti to hit anything as reliably as it could probably direct. Note also that the FT armor of a fort isn't that relevant for fort-busters, particularly for this machine, because with that much punch why would you risk getting shot at by the opposing fort? Instead, you would engage it at what would likely be a stronger point, but that couldn't fire back, but when that stronger point is not going to stop something that goes up to 8ft. thick of reinforced concrete, what does it matter?

Another thing to consider particularly of the case for an assault gun like the Sturmtiger, and that is that it's shells had to be craned-loaded by the crew. So, if you're going through all that trouble (and yes whatever the fire rate is, it's probably too high), would you really engage a fort from the front (assuming we're talking using it via direct-fire)?

In any case, maybe even CL will provide no answers for the assault guns that can't hit the broad side of a KV2, but should be able to have the highest rated penetration of any unit, so that it could actually destroy any thing it could hit such as forts from any facing. Maybe there's no way to program it, but maybe there should be some way to prohibit certain units from direct-firing on certain other units, in this case some assault guns from targeting any AFVs, even if said AFV is immobilized, but would allow it the full potential of it's penetration on forts. From what I understand from achtungpanzer, it could "demolish" any building with one shot, not just 'penetrate' it. It's too bad if it's fire rate can't be fixed for CL, but of course that's not the main angle I'm driving. I think you can understand, if nothing else, how outlandishly silly it looks to have the shell that AFV-wise is probably the highest rated for penetration, and yet mere PZIVHs and Shermans outpenetrate it.

Thanks for your time.

(in reply to Svennemir)

Post #: 33

- 4/4/2002 8:58:20 AM

Bernie

Posts: 1779
Joined: 3/15/2002
From: Depot HQ - Virginia
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles_22
[B]I'll also bet the commentary on the Sturmtiger has no mention of it being a tank-buster, and given the penetration rating it's no wonder. So you can see that encyclopedic claims of something being designed as a tank-buster don't exactly convince me. [/B][/QUOTE]

If you look it up you might be surprised to find out that the SturmTiger was actually a mortar. :)

_____________________________

What, me worry?

(in reply to Svennemir)

Post #: 34

AP/HE - 4/4/2002 9:33:32 AM

mogami

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Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
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With the exception of the KV-2 gun pen listed the others are all off board arty. So I assumed the pen ratings to all be HE. Does OB arty list AP pen ratings? (how else could the list be mixed)
a german 75mm FH lists a higher pen then a Soviet 203mm How (and a German 21cm FH) It still confuses me. Where should I look for the right numbers?

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Svennemir)

Post #: 35

- 4/4/2002 10:53:33 AM

Charles2222

Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
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Bernie:

quote:

If you look it up you might be surprised to find out that the SturmTiger was actually a mortar.

Yes, I knew that. As long as they fired it direct, and it doesn't perform on the very thing it was designed to work on, forts, it doesn't change it being incorrect.

Paul Vebber: Consider another angle on this if you would. Consider the AFV-mounted flamethrower. Here we have an assault weapon, something that was probably pretty useless for hitting a moving AFV, and yet it has a shell size of 20 (close) and has almost double the Sturmtiger HE rating by having a 200 penetration and somehow it's being rated so high for penetration isn't considered to be something that can be abused. I know we have our flamthrower enthusiasts out here, but really, why's it so different from the Sturmtiger that it can bust any fort, from any angle, I suppose, with a 200 rating, and yet the Sturmtiger has to look shabby? The only difference I can see is that if the Sturmtiger is treated as it was capable of hitting, it might be deemed 'unfair' by certain persons, while flamethrowers on AFVs are pretty common to all major nations. I know as SPWAW presently stands it can be terribly abused, but then the tales of the abuse of flamthrowers have been legendary. I'll probably never pick a Sturmtiger, but for the sake of accuracy if nothing else, I hope to see in CL, where I suppose prices could go through the roof, that at least though Sturmy may be through the roof in price, it won't be watered down in potency. Thanks again.

(in reply to Svennemir)

Post #: 36

- 4/4/2002 2:31:37 PM

Bernie

Posts: 1779
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From: Depot HQ - Virginia
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles_22
[B]Bernie:

Yes, I knew that. As long as they fired it direct, and it doesn't perform on the very thing it was designed to work on, forts, it doesn't change it being incorrect.

Paul Vebber: Consider another angle on this if you would. Consider the AFV-mounted flamethrower. Here we have an assault weapon, something that was probably pretty useless for hitting a moving AFV, and yet it has a shell size of 20 (close) and has almost double the Sturmtiger HE rating by having a 200 penetration and somehow it's being rated so high for penetration isn't considered to be something that can be abused. I know we have our flamthrower enthusiasts out here, but really, why's it so different from the Sturmtiger that it can bust any fort, from any angle, I suppose, with a 200 rating, and yet the Sturmtiger has to look shabby? The only difference I can see is that if the Sturmtiger is treated as it was capable of hitting, it might be deemed 'unfair' by certain persons, while flamethrowers on AFVs are pretty common to all major nations. I know as SPWAW presently stands it can be terribly abused, but then the tales of the abuse of flamthrowers have been legendary. I'll probably never pick a Sturmtiger, but for the sake of accuracy if nothing else, I hope to see in CL, where I suppose prices could go through the roof, that at least though Sturmy may be through the roof in price, it won't be watered down in potency. Thanks again. [/B][/QUOTE]

Flamethrowers are nice, but strictly short range. The SturmTiger on the other hand has considerable range and seem more than adaquate for their purpose in the game. They do a very fine job "bunker busting", I've even gotten some lucky hits on immobilized AFV's with them, but by far they excell most for infantry busting. A single hit in a cluster of troops will kill out to three hexes in some cases. Great "cleanup" tools for all those crewmen left wandering around after your Tigers have wiped out a mess of AFV's.

_____________________________

What, me worry?

(in reply to Svennemir)

Post #: 37

- 4/4/2002 3:13:16 PM

john g

Posts: 984
Joined: 10/6/2000
From: college station, tx usa
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bernie
[B]

Flamethrowers are nice, but strictly short range. The SturmTiger on the other hand has considerable range and seem more than adaquate for their purpose in the game. They do a very fine job "bunker busting", I've even gotten some lucky hits on immobilized AFV's with them, but by far they excell most for infantry busting. A single hit in a cluster of troops will kill out to three hexes in some cases. Great "cleanup" tools for all those crewmen left wandering around after your Tigers have wiped out a mess of AFV's. [/B][/QUOTE]

When I ran a WWII campaign for the Germans, that was my use for the Sturms as well, I never used it to bust forts or shoot at vehicles, it was fired strictly at infantry concentrations, it gave a nice ripple effect as it affected each hex in turn. The Anzac daisycutter does a similar job but you only get one shot per aircraft.

Now that the SFH is out to the public, people can modify units to their hearts content and get semi official point values for the new units.

If someone is playing with unlimited ammo instead of reduced ammo, try changing ammo loadouts to 255 in the sfh and see what that does to the unit's point value. It will probobly peg everything out at 255 points.

A unit of late war Tiger 1e that stumbles upon a unit of Churchill VIII with 95/22 loading heat will almost certainly die, but that is the nature of the game, for every super weapon there is a proper counter to it. The CS tanks have 1 or 2 turns of ammo to kill those Tigers if playing reduced, if not they better get out of there quickly.
thanks, John.

(in reply to Svennemir)

Post #: 38

- 4/4/2002 8:49:37 PM

Charles2222

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Bernie:

quote:

They do a very fine job "bunker busting", I've even gotten some lucky hits on immobilized AFV's with them, but by far they excell most for infantry busting.

Fine job? They can't bust anything above 108 armor, when clearly they easily could, while other things like flamers aren't like restricted? I've never doubted any anti-personnel ability it may possess. The Germans develope something more bunker-busting advanced than the flamethrower, and then it's less penetrating for the very purpose it was designed? It's almost like saying that a T34 should be happy it can penetrate the PZIB from the rear, if the PZIB were grotesquely armored elsewhere.

BTW, the Jagdtiger might want to be looked at. I always thought the Panther or KTiger guns were supposed to be the most accurate GE guns, but it turns out the KTiger is 29, while the Jagdtiger is 33. Seems I've always seen the 128L55 a less accurate then the 88L71, which, as is, is approximately 12% more accurate.

As always, all this discussion isn't meant strictly for SPWAW, but CL as well, and another thing, yes, I can change the OOBs, I have no problem with upping Strumtiger penetration or downing Jagdtiger accuracy, but part of the idea is not only to correct things sooner or later down the line, but to get feedback so that I'd have a better idea of what I should change it to myself.

(in reply to Svennemir)

Post #: 39