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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns

 
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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/9/2009 11:42:25 PM   
george1972

 

Posts: 366
Joined: 6/19/2008
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		The following map shows the disposition of "forces" on the German side (if you can still call them that).




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/9/2009 11:56:23 PM   
george1972

 

Posts: 366
Joined: 6/19/2008
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		Instead of withdrawing behind the Dniepr as ordered, the hot-headed Field-Marshal in command of AG South sees an opportunity to exact revenge and orders his forces to launch a full-scale assault towards Kharkov with the aim of utterly destroying the Russian forces opposing him.

He nearly managed to pull it off, but at least the picture taken of him before the great tractor works flying the German Flag will be a great collector's item after the war.

Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, saved from a German concentration camp by advancing Russian troops in September 1944, would later make the infamous comment that "this operation made the Charge of Light Brigade look like a sensible military exercise".




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/10/2009 11:40:47 AM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Russian turn 58.

First the production:

Increased the fighter output after the unexpected losses in the last turn.
I have to calculate with my disadvantage in fighter tech. As long as i can´t
engage the german fighters they remain a threat.




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/10/2009 11:46:24 AM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		The north.

A good place to be for the russian footsoldiers.
They are very successful. The complete german defense
was knocked out and Warsaw was captured.
The germans now feel what it means to fight with infantry
only against attack forces with massive air and artillery support.




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/10/2009 11:53:30 AM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		The south.

Near Kharkov i flew some successful air attacks
and rebuild my defense line.
If the germans decide to continue their attacks
they´ll become the nuts in my nutcracker since my
southern "jaw" (Stalingrad front) is already very close
and i have massive air assets in range.

My Baku front smashed thru the Kerch Straight destroying any
opposition in their way. But even they had a awesome
artillery and air support the attackers lost about 50% of the infantry
participating in the attack.
Now nothing can stop the Baku front. Sevastopol will be free soon.....




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/10/2009 9:59:22 PM   
george1972

 

Posts: 366
Joined: 6/19/2008
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		Germany, Turn 59, August 25, 1944

The front line is now deflating rapidly like a leaky balloon. All troops are now racing towards the South West in order to find refuge in Romania.




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/10/2009 10:00:28 PM   
george1972

 

Posts: 366
Joined: 6/19/2008
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		In the West, the retreating forces head South.




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/10/2009 10:01:45 PM   
george1972

 

Posts: 366
Joined: 6/19/2008
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		In the Ukraine they head West... some stragglers will undoubtedly be caught by the pursuing Russians, but the bulk of my forces have a good chances of escaping unscathed.




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/12/2009 10:36:43 AM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Russian turn 59 or the end of the Wehrmacht....

First the production:




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/12/2009 10:40:25 AM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		The north and center:

After the end of the two german army groups i wasn´t able to march to Berlin
which would be the logical target for these forces
Had to go south to clear the map and meet with my southern forces.
No german opposition ready to fight me now.




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/12/2009 10:46:09 AM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		The south:

After reoccupying the Crimea and Sevastopol my Baku front is on their way to enter Romania.

Near Kharkov the situation becomes critical for the holding germans.
I´m close to cut their last supply line, so they have to go back or die.
My forces will simply press them out of russia supported by the red air force
which is now very close to the front for max support.

A not very spectacular end, but the Wehrmacht is really finished.




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/12/2009 5:04:33 PM   
george1972

 

Posts: 366
Joined: 6/19/2008
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		Germany, Turn 60, September 14, 1944

My final turn and an anticlimactic one as well. Facing ever growing numbers of Russians and ever decreasing production I cannot do anything but run away... If only this game used some kind of manpower limit, things might have turned out differently





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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/12/2009 5:05:30 PM   
george1972

 

Posts: 366
Joined: 6/19/2008
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		The situation on the Western edge of the map.




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/12/2009 5:08:13 PM   
george1972

 

Posts: 366
Joined: 6/19/2008
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		The Dniepr front shows my last attacks of game, blunting the spearhead trying to get behind my front. If such an attack was launched in force from Smolensk with target Kiev ten turns ago, a spectacular victory might have been achieved by the Russians, but now it's too little, too late.

Still, my counter-attacking forces will probably be slaughtered by Seille's air force which is (too) close by.




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/12/2009 6:49:28 PM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Russian turn 60 (last turn)

The germans can´t longer inflict any higher losses on my side.
While i enjoy now a huge production base (bigger than prior to the war)
And it is still damaged. Warsaw is to 50% destroyed, Konigsberg nearly completely.
Same for Kharkov and Sevastopol.
With all these production facilities repaired i could send unarmed mens and would
still win....




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/12/2009 7:08:05 PM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		A last big screen showing how the front is melted away or better said the german territory

My forces are not longer to stop by Germany.
All they can do is blowing up bridges and trying to defend
in mountains or behind rivers. But with my actual forces
concentrated in the south and the german production (what´s left from)
i could eliminate any resistance by air and artillery attacks only.

German AG South was able to evade the pocket i was ready to close behind them,
but it was only the 60 turn time-limit that saved them. And the lack of levelbombers
on my side to destroy the key bridge in time
2 or 3 more turns and they would have gone the way AG Center and AG North
has gone a few turns ago.
But for now George did the best out of the situation and saved the lives of many
of his heroic fighters.






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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/12/2009 7:10:46 PM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		I still don´t think this game end should be a draw or marginal german victory.
These victory conditions are a joke since without the map end at Warsaw i would be in Berlin
YET. Much faster than Russia was in reality. In addition the Wehrmacht is not longer existing.
The few units would die very fast without enough reenforcements.

Probably the first game that was ever played over the full rounds, so the victory
conditions were never a problem. For me they are simply not well configured.
The early fall of Warsaw was not honored. Same for the fact the Wehrmacht is nearly destroyed.
I can still feel the frustration when the game ended in this situation simply cause i did not
sit in Bucharest.
The facts are the Wehrmacht is not longer existing and Berlin is fallen or close to with AG North and Center
completely gone. I feel definitely like the winner even for 80% of the game this was not the case

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Post #: 617
RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/13/2009 4:09:30 PM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 1057
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline 		Great AAR for the best Advanced tactics scenario which is worth the price of the game on its own. Perhaps someone will redo this scenario to include Berlin? Or better still, about time we had Advanced Tactics sequel


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Post #: 618
RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/13/2009 11:14:31 PM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		There are several little bugs in the scenario which need a fix.
The victory conditions are another problem.
I have a little list of things i found

The weather changes always happen in turn xx player 1, the german.
Need to be random (player 1 or 2). A imbalance wich favors Germany.

I could do the needed changes, but i don´t want to do a mod xx of this scenario.
When i do these changes which would definitely improve the scenario i want to replace
the original scenario with, but actually no bigger game update is planned where this
reworked scenario could be included.
Sad thing, since there are really some bugs in the game. Maybe later.
However, it is and will be my favorite scenario, too. With or without bugs

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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/14/2009 10:58:39 AM   
george1972

 

Posts: 366
Joined: 6/19/2008
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		I'm pretty busy this weekend, but I will submit a few posts analyzing the game later on.

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Post #: 620
RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/14/2009 11:42:46 PM   
Frido1207

 

Posts: 456
Joined: 11/16/2006
From: Lower Saxony, Germany
Status: offline 		Followed this epic battle right from the start.
Huge thx for sharing it with us in this outstanding AAR.
(sad to see that is it all over now - maybe a rematch?? )


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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/15/2009 8:36:58 AM   
LazyBoy

 

Posts: 190
Joined: 5/7/2005
Status: offline 		I have enjoyed every post in this AAR, thanks for the huge effort guys

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Post #: 622
RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/15/2009 9:52:09 AM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Ok, here are some statistics for the game:

I´ve put together some interesting screens for production, losses/kills
and final army condition.

Here is the victory screen for Germany first
(even it´s obvious Germany did not win......)




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/15/2009 9:53:15 AM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Losses Graph




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/15/2009 9:54:21 AM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Production graph




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/15/2009 9:56:00 AM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Losses Totals (probably the most interesting screen)




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/15/2009 9:58:35 AM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Overview final army condition.
As you see from the Wehrmacht was only a shadow left.....




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/15/2009 11:55:08 AM   
Widell


Posts: 913
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: Trollhättan, Sweden
Status: offline 		Seeing the graph, the turning point was in early 1944, or possible late 43. Any comments as to when the tide started turning and some discussion on what lead to the turning point. Strategic/tactical etc. Would be interesting to hear you elaborate a little on that.

BTW, when will the epic HBO series based on this AAR start broadcasting?


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Post #: 628
RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/15/2009 2:47:55 PM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Hello Widell,

The turning point was north of Baku when i moved my front back for a 1-turn-break.
This way i reduced losses and allowed my fresh troops to get some experience.
In addition i moved my planes down to attack between Stalingrad and Baku.

From my point of view this was the turning point in the south.
A high impact had the destruction of the many german planes on the unguarded airfield near Stalingrad.

That was the key in the south in winter 43/44. In the north it was the successful defense and counter attack
after the fall of Leningrad. Played very good there (in the south i made more mistakes...)

Over the whole game i was close to surrendering three or four times especially when the romanians
kicked my ass after the fall of Baku with often 500+ infantry losses per turn. But i had always front parts that made me happy,
so i continued

(in reply to Widell)
Post #: 629
RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 2/15/2009 5:45:28 PM   
Grymme

 

Posts: 1821
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		Some comments. (note. these are all my personal ramblings, while in high fewer etc).

First of all. I generally think that you both fought well. That being said.

Notable tactical mishaps
1) Obviously when George forgot his 40-50 airplanes to close to the front in july 1943. I think the game could have looked differently if that hadnt happened. These things will happen in such a large game, but the magnitude is hightened by the fact that airforces were so concentrated.
2) The german airforces kamikaze attack in january 1942. Not realizing that the winter penalty applies to aircraft and loosing some 30 aircraft
3) Seilles fighting in Leningrad in april-may manning leningrad a little to easy and leaving some 15 fighters/divebombers within range of Georges forces.

Notable strategic strangeties
1) Seille concentrating so much on his northern offensive that he ignored Georges thrust into Caucasus which in the end cost him Maikop, Baku and almost the game.
2) George not taking a couple of turns taking Crimea in 1942 (and instead using for example the SS to run around seemingly without a goal in 1942).
3) Seille never exploring or exploiting the huge gaps in german lines. I know. FoW. But still.

Time when it seemed most likely that
1) George would win the game. In januari 1943. He had captured Maikop and Stalingrad and cut of Baku from outside reinforcents even reaching the end of the map. This while still holding Leningrad. What did the Russians have left?
2) Seille would win the game. December 1941. George hadnt gotten anywhere or taken anything. And what he had he was retreating from (which altough a good tactic didnt seem as grand in the homeland newspapers).

Notable observations, differences, oddities in production etc
1) George constantly went for producing Mortars which Seille didnt to any large extent. Mortars are IMO the best unit in the game and a large reason (although only partial) why he constantly caused greater losses to Seille than Seille did to him (i know there were other factors also).
2) nobody used to any extent Bazookas, AT-Guns or Scouts.

Honorable mentioning to
1) The Romanian AG. Much maligned in the official newspapers these stout balcanic peoples showed the world where its really at.
2) The defenders of Sevastopol. "Wait, they are coming, no... doesnt seem so. Wait, now they are really comming. Still nothing." etc. The final fall of fortress Sevastopol must have had some instance of " a boy crying wolf about it"


< Message edited by Grymme -- 2/15/2009 5:47:03 PM >

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