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The End Around!

 
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The End Around! - 4/18/2002 9:26:57 AM   
IChristie

 

Posts: 673
Joined: 3/26/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		23 Oct - The Washington and South Dakota demonstrate why they are called "fast" battleships. They beat the Yamato and co. to the corner and sweep southward and eastward.

IN Luganville roads, as the grey dawn rises lookouts on board the Japanese Cruisers of the heavy covering force raise the alarm:

"Enemy ships in harbour".

Chin Lee has arrived in Luganville roads. Before him he sees a bay littered with 3000 ton transports madly ferrying supplies to the beach. Steaming full speed toward him the cruisers of the heavy covering force, turrets already swinging to bear. Off to to port, light cruisers and destroyers, madly closing the range and readying their long lances.

Far away to the north the largest battleship in the world and the two twins are burning all available fuel as they steam to the rescue. OVer the horizon to the south, bomber crews in Port Vila rush to their Bettys and Kates ready to take to the air in a desperate attempt to even the odds.

Behind him the pride of the once proud Pacific Fleet. Two shiny new battleships, three heavy cruisers and a pack of hungry destroyers...

The battle of Luganville roads is about to begin

(am I dragging this out enough for ya?) :D

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Iain Christie
-----------------
"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
It's better to light a candle than stand and curse the dark"

- James Keelaghan

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 301
- 4/18/2002 9:38:17 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Grrr...don't toy with me, the Sens just screwed the pooch with another example why you should never give chicken bones to your dog. Played great for three periods then play badminton on skates in overtime. Here we go again. Well, at least my Canucks kicked some Motown butt!:)

_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 302
- 4/18/2002 9:47:35 AM   
IChristie

 

Posts: 673
Joined: 3/26/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Grrr...don't toy with me,[/QUOTE]

This from the guy who started the "UV RELEASED" thread. The rest of the guys on this board all got together just now and begged me to send the next installment out by e-mail... to everyone except you. :D

_____________________________

Iain Christie
-----------------
"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
It's better to light a candle than stand and curse the dark"

- James Keelaghan

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 303
BB's - 4/18/2002 10:03:40 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Are you sure it is Washington and N Carolina, Where is the South Dakoda?

'Intercepted this message from US radio transmissions

"Stand aside, I'm coming through. This is Ching Lee."




Mogami's cyrstal ball reveals

"Veil lifted on Victor in Luganville Battle"
U.S. Identifies "Battleship X"
Washington, Oct. 2 (1943)-(U.P.)

The Navy today identified its famous battleship "X" as the 35,000-ton South Dakota. This was the ship, commanded by Capt. Thomas L. Gatch, which sent three Japanese cruisers to the bottom within a matter of minutes during the battle of Luganvulle last November. The South Dakota previously had slugged safely through the heaviest air attack yet made on a battleship, sending 32 Japanese planes down in flames. The Navy in revealing the name explained that the vessel's identity was withheld because it was of a new class of battleships bearing new armament and possessing increased fire power. The idea was that the Navy did not want to give the enemy confirmed information

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 304
I've been shafted! - 4/18/2002 10:34:29 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Boy, that's a bummer. Can I help it if people have fallen for that same April Fools gag (albeit it about a month early)? Where's that arty spirit and loyalty. UBIQUE means everywhere, not everywhere but here.:p

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 305
- 4/18/2002 10:39:43 AM   
IChristie

 

Posts: 673
Joined: 3/26/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]UBIQUE means everywhere, not everywhere but here[/QUOTE]

Unless your talking about engineers in which case it means all over the effing place.

Mogami, Oooops! you are correct it was South Dakota :o

_____________________________

Iain Christie
-----------------
"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
It's better to light a candle than stand and curse the dark"

- James Keelaghan

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 306
VIEW COUNT - 4/18/2002 10:41:04 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		I wonder if this forum crashes at 10,000 views? Doesn't look like the field can handle 5 digits. You're a star Iain!:D

_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 307
South Dakoda BB57 - 4/18/2002 10:55:28 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Capt Gatch is an intersting story, The South Dakoda crew was rarly allowed off the pier in ports since he did not require them to get haircuts or even wear uniforms. So port commanders had the SP's haul them back to the ship whenever they tried to leave. Capt Gatch solved the problem not by cleaning up his crew but by having massive parties right on the pier. (Beerblasts and cookouts) The SD was a rust bucket (a new rust bucket?) because he believed coats of paint would burn in battle so he did not paint the ship. He concentrated on damage control and gunfire. S.E. Morrison does not bother to mention his name since the other commanding officers all disliked his methods of command. (they called his crew 'the bums') To this day it is a mistake to mention him or his command practices as examples to be copied.
The SD carried it's float plane into it's first battle and it caught fire from a Japanese hit. The ship had a few bad minutes while they jettisoned the burning craft and put the fire out. Then they went to work. Both Capt and crew balled their eyes out when he was relieved and a new CO took over. He cleaned them up and put them back into the regular navy and painted the ship.

That was the real reason the Navy with held the story till after a change of command and paint job. since they did not want to publish pictures of this ship and crew as victors.

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Post #: 308
The final chapter - 4/18/2002 11:14:04 AM   
IChristie

 

Posts: 673
Joined: 3/26/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		Well, I was thinking of waiting until it hit 10K before posting the next bit, but I'm just not THAT sadistic.

Our story continues:

As the range between the heavy covering force and the BB's closes. The PV bombers put in an appearance. Fighting through the flak they manage to put a bomb into the CA Minneapolis.

As the bombers disappear back over the horizon the naval battle begins. Badly outnumbered the cruisers of the heavy covering force start by concentrating on their opposite numbers - the US heavy cruisers. They score immediate hits and both US cruisers start to burn. The elation is short lived, however, as first Washington and then South Dakota find the range. In a separate action the Japanese destroyers give the US screen everything they can handle.

Just as disaster seems to be overwhelming the heavies and the convoy seems in reach, the Washington turns hard a port and pulls away. The light cruisers and destroyers of the light covering force, threatening from the flank open fire as they close to torpedo range. Suddenly the surface of the bay is alive with torpedo tracks. Caught between the hammer and the anvil the Washington is torpedoed once. The South Dakota manages to avoid the torpedo attack and turn its guns on the light cruisers, the flag ship Nagara is all but cut in half be two direct hits.

But the chaos caused by the torpedo attack eventually decides the contest. The US task force is in disarray. Sharp actions continue amongst the destroyer screens. The badly damaged US cruisers are easy targets and they are hit repeatedly. The San Francisco also takes a torpedo hit.

As the battlewagons withdraw to regroup wireless reports indicate that PBY's have spotted the Yamato task force steaming south at full speed. Knowing this and the fact that the bombers from PV must be refuelling a waiting for a chance to pounce on his battered command Admiral Lee turns his back on the columns of smoke rising from Luganville sound and starts the dash for safe haven at Noumea

The heavily damaged cruisers and one of the destroyers drop quickly astern.

On the morning of 24 October they are only 100 miles off Port Vila when they are spotted by land based patrols. Within the hour the ominous black dots begin to fill the eastern horizon. Wave after wave of twin engine torpedo bombers attack across the water. Dive bombers fill the sky. Like black flies on a Muskoka spring day they swarm the wounded ships. They do not miss. The San Francisco alone is torpedoed 5 times. By nightfall a spreading oil slick is all that is left of all three ships...

The two battleships and the remaining destroyer screen make port at Noumea. As they near the port flight after flight of F4F fighters join the Combat Air Patrol over the ships. Exhausted sailors slump against the AA mounts and breathe a sigh of relief

Back in Luganville harbour the Yamato task force steams into to a scene of wreckage and bedlam. Smoking and listing ships litter the outer roads but the unloading continues apace in the bay.

The overall cost is 1 CL completely disabled, 3 CA's and a 2 CL's badly damaged several DD's damaged and one DD sunk. Overall a heavy toll but also a great victory as not one transport was touched...

_____________________________

Iain Christie
-----------------
"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
It's better to light a candle than stand and curse the dark"

- James Keelaghan

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 309
Good Job!!! - 4/18/2002 11:25:40 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Whew? A near run thing. If I was the US player and this happened to me I would be using Kleenex galore.
You don't often get chances like that.

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 310
KO'ed - 4/18/2002 7:40:23 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Surely, the USN is down and out now. There can't be much left.:confused:

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 311
Yamato's hamsters too tired?! - 4/18/2002 8:49:57 PM   
ftwarrior

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 2/28/2002
From: Springfield, VA
Status: offline 		How is it that the Wash and SD got past the Yamato a SECOND time while exiting L'ville?????

It's certainly plausible that they got by Yamato's group the first time on the way in to L'ville, but I'm a little surprised that Yamato's group was unable to close while the US ships were in the middle of the engagement there.

Not only that, but once slipping by them again, they outraced them all the way back to Noumea (or did Yamato give up)?

Iain, what were the distances and speeds involved here? If Yamoto is THAT lethargic, I can see why Yamamoto basically used it as his floating office building only!!!

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 312
- 4/18/2002 9:56:50 PM   
IChristie

 

Posts: 673
Joined: 3/26/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		In the first case the Yamato was not moving to Luganville but patrolling South of the US TF location. Although they were to react to the enemy the US TF managed to avoid detections as the first time it was located was when it showed up in Luganville at the end of the day.

I immediately sent the Yamato to Luganville, but they were at max range and probably did not arrive until the next morning by which time the US BB's were long gone.

At this time, the Yamato TF group is down to around 23-25 kts because of a variety of minor system damage (including a couple of non-critical bomb hits). The US BB's are probably steaming at 30-32 as they are (were) fresh.

_____________________________

Iain Christie
-----------------
"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
It's better to light a candle than stand and curse the dark"

- James Keelaghan

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 313
- 4/19/2002 12:45:32 AM   
ftwarrior

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 2/28/2002
From: Springfield, VA
Status: offline 		Okay, I guess the Yamoto's skipper shouldn't be beheaded just yet....man I was really hoping for a knock down drag out between those two surface groups.

Not saying you should do this, but consider the following? Those big dogs running around (quickly!) scare me for L'ville. How about planting Yamato very close by on station to screen? 3 reasons:

1) I think the Gods smiled on L'ville last time....need to prevent that in the future.....if it does operation Total Victory may not be toast, but it'll be pretty crunchy.

2) You have plenty of other naval assets relative to US, so Yamato's group (or part of it) won't be THAT sorely missed

3) Stationing Yamato's group will give it a productive task, yet keep its fuel consumption to a minimum.

Thoughts?

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 314
- 4/19/2002 2:21:58 AM   
IChristie

 

Posts: 673
Joined: 3/26/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		I was also thinking of doing this:

- Rewind the tape to the night of 22 Oct (I've been saving every turn).
- Order Yamato & co. to Luganville instead of patrol.
- See what happens!

_____________________________

Iain Christie
-----------------
"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
It's better to light a candle than stand and curse the dark"

- James Keelaghan

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 315
Yes do that - 4/19/2002 2:51:08 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Yes do it, we can always pick back up here but all of us starving viewers will have a massive surface battle feast. Then post the battle report blow by blow

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 316
- 4/19/2002 4:20:24 AM   
ftwarrior

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 2/28/2002
From: Springfield, VA
Status: offline 		Concur, but if the AI is stochastic (is it?) I don't think it will guarantee that they'll go into L'ville again.

Wonder if Ymto TF was sighted, and that's how they knew to go southeast around you and then decided to stop off and pound L'ville while "in the neighborhood"?

They always seemed just one step ahead of your big boys throughout the episode.

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 317
- 4/19/2002 4:56:49 AM   
madflava13


Posts: 1530
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline 		Quick Q-
Do you ever get any warning that you've been spotted? (ie "Enemy PBY sighted, etc.)

_____________________________

"The Paraguayan Air Force's request for spraying subsidies was not as Paraguayan as it were..."

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 318
- 4/19/2002 5:17:55 AM   
ftwarrior

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 2/28/2002
From: Springfield, VA
Status: offline 		I don't know how it is in the game, but IMHO you should NOT be notified that you were observed.

However, if that PBY can see you, then you should have a least a chance of observing him as well.

Also, that PBY must report what he saw....unless he flies all the way home with the news (thereby delaying it an additional X hours), he has to call it in. Such signals (even if coded) should be able to be detected (though not understood if encoded) by anyone who happens to be listening.

I posted a couple of questions about Radio Transmissions and SIGINT on anther thread, but haven't seen answers to them.

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 319
- 4/19/2002 6:56:20 AM   
ratster

 

Posts: 166
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: PA
Status: offline 		Being informed on whether or not a friendly task force has been sighted by the enemy isn't really that usefull given the scale of the game.

12 hour phases where you can only enter orders every 24 hours(2 phases), doesn't really allow you to react to that type of intelligence. If a freindly TF is sighted it'll most likely be attacked (if it can be) before you could react to the news (change its orders).

_____________________________

" If it be now, tis not to come: if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all"

Clan [GOAT]

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 320
Alternate Reality - 4/20/2002 11:04:36 AM   
IChristie

 

Posts: 673
Joined: 3/26/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		As requested, here is how the scenario played out when the Yamato TF was ordered to Luganville..

23 Oct - After analysing the US BB's movements, the Imperial General Staff sends immediate word that they Yamato task force should make all deliberate speed for Luganville as they suspect the US ships will head there. Ponderously the Yamato turns south. The ships in Luganville are brought to maximum alert and the light and heavy covering forces take up positions to head off any the US TF should it arise.

At 9:00AM the US ships are indeed seen heading roughly SE, but mechanical difficulties force the shadowing patrol aircraft to return to Nevea. Subsequent patrols fail to locate the Task Force for the rest of the day. At all headquarters and aboard all teh ships in Luganville harbour the same question is on everyone's lips: "Who will get there first?"

Late in the day the question is answered as a patrol out of Port Vila spots the American ships steaming fast for Luganville harbour. Aboard the ships of the two covering forces, the crews grimly man their stations and prepare for their coming doom.

At Port Vila airfield the Val divebombers - sitting ready on the flight line since mid afternoon - are scrambled immediately. They find the American ships and immediately attack. they find that the flak produced by two new battleships is intense. 50% of the aircraft are destroyed or damaged. One bomb hits the Washington but does no serious damage. The cruiser San Francisco is not so lucky. She takes two bomb hits which cause an explosion which damages her steering and reduces her speed. She begins to fall behind the main task force.

In desperation the Val strike commander radios that they have been unable to seriously wound the enemy ships. Hearing the news, the fighters assigned to fly CAP over the beaches descend on the US ships intent on doing whatever they can. They repeatedly strafe the ships until their ammunition is gone. Although the fighters do no measureable damage they have a decisive impact on future events.

The two airstrikes badly disorganise the US task force. It takes precious minutes to regroup and reform. Just as formation has been regained a message from the San Francisco (now trailing several thousand yards to rear) electrifies the bridge aboard the Washington:

"Enemy Capital Ships Approaching!"

Yamato & co. have arrived. The US BB's abruptly change course and steam to meet the new threat. The San Francisco, limping at 10 kts and with damaged steering turns to the attack. She is an easy target. Action opens at 16000 yds and on the second salvo all three IJN BB's have the range. It is over in less than 5 minutes. Only an oilslick remains as mute testimony to the heroism of the San Francisco's crew.


Next... Big Guns, Big Fun

_____________________________

Iain Christie
-----------------
"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
It's better to light a candle than stand and curse the dark"

- James Keelaghan

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 321
Alternate Reality Cont'd - 4/20/2002 11:29:17 AM   
IChristie

 

Posts: 673
Joined: 3/26/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		The Japanese ships have no time to savour the victory as they find the pride of the USN bearing down on them. Once again action opens at 16000 yds. Both sides prove that they have been hard at their gun drills. The Japanese strike first. Yamato's second salvo slams into South Dakota. This is followed in rapid succession by salvos from Mutsu and the cruiser Mikuma. The Nagato exchanges salvos with the Washington, while both obtain direct hits, the Nagato is heavily damaged when a splinter ignites a secondary battery magazine. She pulls out of line trailing smoke. The South Dakota, despite fires burning amidships hits back, landing 2 salvos on the Yamato. The hits damage the primary fire direction circuits and the fire from the Yamato's main batteries becomes erratic. The Cruiser Minneapolis interposes herself between the South Dakota and her tormentors she is rewarded by being struck amidships by a 16" salvo from Mutsu. The salvo penetrates her belt armour and opens a hole in her side.

As the range closed to 14000 yards, the Japanese DD's are ordered to begin their torpedo runs. The Washington responds with her secondary batteries and mauls two of the destroyers. Despite this and several sharp actions between DD's on both sides the DD's manage to successfully launch torpedos. The Washington, under full power, has no trouble avoiding the torpedo attack. The Minneapolis and South Dakota are not so lucky. With fires burning, and speed decreased they are both easy targets and are hit by torpedos.

As the range closes to 12000 yards, the US DD's rush to the aid of the North Dakota laying smoke between her and the attackers. The Yamato, with primary batteries for all intents and purposes out of action, peppers the wounded South Dakota with her secondary batteries. The Mutsu concentrates on exchanging fire with the Washington and engages the US DD's with her secondary armament. The Nagato continues to burn fiercely. All is confusion.

Suddenly the US ships turn South once again and head toward the Luganville roads. Due to the nearly miraculous damage control skill shown by the crews of the the Minneapolis and the South Dakota, they are able to draw away from the Yamato and the Mutsu. With night drawing in, main batteries still non-functional and the task force disorganized and damaged, the Yamato lets them go, confident that the covering forces will be more than a match for the partially disabled US ships...

The final damage total is shown in the attachment

Next... Are those Cruisers I see before me?

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Iain Christie
-----------------
"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
It's better to light a candle than stand and curse the dark"

- James Keelaghan

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 322
- 4/20/2002 4:40:48 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

Posts: 1401
Joined: 4/13/2002
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline 		The ranges quoted are very short for a capital ship action. Was it daylight/good weather, because I would expect the action to commence at well over 20000 yds if so, and maybe close to 16-18k at the climax? All the actions I recall (where the visibilty allows) were opened at well above 8 miles. IIRC Warspite scored a first salvo hit at 24000? in the med against the Italians (OK, fluke, but all the same)

[Edit] Sorry - mind playing tricks. The shell in question was fired at Giulio Cesare, at 26400yds, 7 minutes after opening fire, at the battle off Calabria on 9th July 1940. According to my sources, this still holds the record for a hit on a moving target from a naval gun (obviously without guided munitions). It was definately not uncommon to fire at these ranges. In fact, the 5th BS (inc Warspite) opened fire at 19000yds at the German battle cruisers at Jutland in WW1 - quite spoiled their day for a few minutes, since they couldn't reply!

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I have a cunning plan, My Lord

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Post #: 323
- 4/20/2002 5:19:55 PM   
Adnan Meshuggi

 

Posts: 2220
Joined: 8/2/2001
Status: offline 		Well, me too is surprised.
I allways thought that japs and yank ships were for long range fire est. over 30k, instead of the middle-range fire tactic of german and british ships.

If an old cane like the warspite could open fire at longer range this sounds strange, or compare it with the bismarck-hood battle, they opened fire under total covered and bad weather about 28000meters, the good hits wich sunk the hood were at est. 18000 meters (ca. 20.000 yards), in a area with a sight range of 12-15 miles in rough sea...

so i think the battle should be at greater range, because even if the german and english crews were better, i don´t think they were so much better...

but go one.... great AAR

_____________________________

Don't tickle yourself with some moralist crap thinking we have some sort of obligation to help these people. We're there for our self-interest, and anything we do to be 'nice' should be considered a courtesy dweebespit

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 324
Plunging fire - 4/20/2002 8:58:37 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, In game terms what range gives plunging fire deck hits rather then hits on belt armour? BB vrs BB daylight battle ships would rather fire plunging fire. BB vrs CA/smaller they might close range to use secondary etc. Do all ships in a TF use the same range?

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 325
- 4/23/2002 10:13:56 AM   
byron13


Posts: 1589
Joined: 7/27/2001
Status: offline 		Jeez, Iain. Taking a breather. I'm disappointed that there hasn't been any action on your thread for TWO DAYS! What's up with that? Just because Snigbert is having some fun doesn't mean we're not still interested in the battle for L'ville!

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 326
- 4/23/2002 10:34:25 AM   
tohoku

 

Posts: 415
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: at lunch, thanks.
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by ftwarrior
[B]
They always seemed just one step ahead of your big boys throughout the episode. [/B][/QUOTE]


It's a special feature of the AI: it reads this forum.

HTH

tohoku
YMMV

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 327
Guns and Ranges - 4/23/2002 11:16:12 PM   
madflava13


Posts: 1530
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline 		US and Jap ships were designed with long range fire in mind, but the opportunity never came up -
Most battles - all battles?- were medium/short ranged skirmishes.
The weather, intelligence, etc. aspects included in this game most likely reflect the fact that no surface engagements in the region happened over long distances. The only Pacific battle I can think of where long range gunnery was used was the Japanese attack on the CVEs at Leyte - IIRC, the US sailors reported several dye rounds (markers) being fired when only the very tops of the BB/CA masts could be seen visually... I don't know the exact range figures offhand though...

_____________________________

"The Paraguayan Air Force's request for spraying subsidies was not as Paraguayan as it were..."

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 328
Re: Guns and Ranges - 4/24/2002 4:37:47 AM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by madflava13
[B]US and Jap ships were designed with long range fire in mind, but the opportunity never came up -
Most battles - all battles?- were medium/short ranged skirmishes.
... [/B][/QUOTE]


Got this following piece from http://www.warships1.com/W-Tech/tech-006.htm

[I]by Tony DiGiulian on December 18, 1998 at 03:14:04:

Which Battleship scored the longest-range hit on an enemy warship?

The HMS Warspite hit the Guilio Cesare in July 1940 at 26,400 yds. Up until now, I've always believed that this was the longest range hit ever scored on a moving target in a naval combat engagement. Recently, I reread an old book of mine that is an English translation of a German history of the Kriegsmarine in WWII. In it, there is a summary of the Glorious sinking based upon the German after action reports. In this report, there is enough data to have made me think that the Scharnhorst hit the Glorious at a greater range than the Warspite hit the Guilio Cesare. I've been trying to confirm this ever since. I can now report success.

I have found an on-line website that has an article on the engagement:

http://www.primenet.com/~inro/no11994.htm

This is an on-line copy of an article published in Warship International in 1994, titled "Loss of the HMS Glorious," by Vernon W. Howland, Captain, RCN (Retd.). Some data points from the article (found in various places):

1) Scharnhorst was 28,600 yds. distant at 1632 when she opened fire
2) Her third salvo hit the Glorious at 1638.
3) Scharnhorst was 26,465 yds. distant or slightly less from the Glorious between 1636 and 1638.

Notes on above data points:

a) 1 and 2 above agrees with the German after action report summary that I have a translation of, and what started this whole quest of mine.

b) The conversion from hectometers to yards appears to have been poorly done in the table given in the article. It appears that the author converted from hectometers (what the Germans used in their reports) to yards, and then back to hectometers to create the table. I can rationalize the table in no other way. This appears to have led to errors and typos. For instance, at 1641, the range in the table is given as 26,137 yds. and 230 hectometers. Actually, the correct hectometer conversion would be 239. I am assuming that the yard values are correct, as this is what the author should have been most familiar with - he is, after all, Canadian. However, it is possible that, in this one instance, the decameter distance given in the table is correct. If so, then the distance at 1639 would have been 240 hectometers, or about 26,260 yds. I do not believe that this materially affects the end result, but I'll accept that it may be a flaw in my reasoning.


Some analysis of the above data points:

In the three minute period between 1636 and 1639, the distance appears to have remained constant at 26,465 yds., or it may have decreased somewhat to 26,260 yds. For the Scharnhorst to have hit the Glorious at 1638, she must have fired no later than 1637 (allowing for a maximum flight/spot/reload time of 90 seconds and assuming that the times are rounded off to the nearest minute). At 1637, assuming a constant closing rate, the Scharnhorst would have been at about 26,400 yds. So, I think that somewhere between 26,400 to 26,465 yds. is the correct distance, whatever the errors in the table may be.

Bottom line: It appears that the Scharnhorst hit the Glorious at about 26,465 yds. or slightly less. To me, this is essentially the same distance reported for the Warspite striking the Guilio Cesare, 26,400 yds. So, it's really a tie between the HMS Warspite and the KM Scharnhorst.
[/I]

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Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 329
Re: Re: Guns and Ranges - 4/24/2002 5:25:44 AM   
HMSWarspite

 

Posts: 1401
Joined: 4/13/2002
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Raverdave
[B]


Bottom line: It appears that the Scharnhorst hit the Glorious at about 26,465 yds. or slightly less. To me, this is essentially the same distance reported for the Warspite striking the Guilio Cesare, 26,400 yds. So, it's really a tie between the HMS Warspite and the KM Scharnhorst.
[/I] [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes I was aware of that too. I generally disregard it because
1) HMS Warspite was a great ship (and British!)
2) Warspite was under fire from Battlewagon main armament at the time, Scharnhorst wasn't.
3) Scharnhorst one less well documented
4) see 1
5) My Dad came back from Cape Town in 1942 in convoy with Warspite (when he was a boy)

Also, Warspite fought at the second battle of Narvick, and that deserves remembering (BB penetrating confined water to hunt destroyers!)
Oh yes, and see 1) above (in case you're still unconvinced!)

Seriously, I don't know of any collaboration of Scharnhorsts exploit (all RN ships sunk). MAybe someone else knows more?

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I have a cunning plan, My Lord

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 330
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