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Outstanding AAR - 5/10/2002 3:03:13 AM   
Armorer

 

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Hi Iain,

Just wanted to let you know how much I appreciated your AAR. I also pre-ordered. Although I very likely was going to anyway ( like most here, I've been waiting for this game for 20 years ), your AAR made me feel very sure of the strength of the game and its design. So, again, thanks for all the time you put it.

By the way, total agreement with Mogami - the Hall of Fame awaits. I guess you just have to wait the requisite 5 years.;)


Best,
Randy

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 391
- 5/12/2002 1:09:36 PM   
juliet7bravo

 

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"By the way, as I said in the chat, your AAR was great and did teach us a few things. The main one was that we have to change the auto victory rules so that only Noumea and Luganville trigger this (on the east side of the map)."

Excellent...otherwise (to paraphrase) it was a terminal case of "he who must protect everything, protects nothing".

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 392
- 5/12/2002 1:46:28 PM   
Hartmann

 

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I was just wondering ... has anyone ever managed to take one of those big bases in UV, like Port Morseby or Lugainville? For I do not recall something like this succeeding in any of the AARs. Sure, accomplishing this *should*, as a matter of fact, be pretty difficult (and taking Rabaul or Noumea even more), but not totally impossible.

Hartmann

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Reserve Division - 5/14/2002 10:31:53 AM   
Echo

 

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You should have thrown that extra division into the battle. Overwhelming force is the rule.

Great AAR, just spent the last 6 hours perusing this entire thread.

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Post #: 394
Thanks for the AAR Iain. Makes us Canucks look brilliant! - 5/14/2002 11:24:14 AM   
Ron Saueracker


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Iain. You are going to have to change your email address or drown in PBEM requests. :D

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Post #: 395
- 5/14/2002 12:24:33 PM   
Crocky


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Thanks for the AAR Iain its been great following it :)

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Thanks - 5/14/2002 7:35:19 PM   
Zenra


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Iain,

I just wanted to offer my thanks, too - a truly epic AAR, and very well written, I might add.

Having played Guadlecanal Campaign, War in the South Pacific and PacWar, purchasing UV was never a question for me, but from reading your posts I was compelled a few weeks ago to pre-order it, something I rarely do for any game. Now, if they could just get it shipped today...

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Mitchell

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Post #: 397
Thanks guys. - 5/14/2002 9:36:36 PM   
IChristie

 

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Thanks, guys. I appreciate the feedback.

You guys are doing wonders for my argument with David that he owes me commission on all those pre-orders. :D

David, David.... are you reading these?

In actual fact, it was alot of fun. I haven't work on the game for that long and I was glad to be able to contribute a little at the end to help generate enthusiasm for what is truly and excellent game.

That epic weekend of "the big invasion" I almost felt like a theatre commander with the general staff waiting for reports from the front. I felt like telling my wife to hide all the sharp implements in case it failed. I didn't want to have anything around to fall on :)

I have never been a true Pacific Theatre Grognard but I think I learned more about WWII in the SW Pacific by playing UV for a couple of months than I have gotten from any other source.

I looking forward to hearing about everyone elses experiences in the very near future.

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Iain Christie
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"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
It's better to light a candle than stand and curse the dark"

- James Keelaghan

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Post #: 398
Summing Up - 5/15/2002 2:55:10 AM   
IChristie

 

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Well now that everybody else is starting their 24 hour vigil waiting for the postman. It seemed like a good time to discuss some of the "lessons learned" from this little campaing.

These are just some random thoughts in no particular order.

First of all, I learned that pursuing the autovictory conditions is not really a good idea. Against a human opponent, I almost certainly would have failed. Joel and Gary first suggested the strategy because they suspected that the AI would not be flexible to respond to a massive invasion below hex row 52. They were right, while the AI did a credible job of keeping L'ville alive, it did not ever get serious about kicking me out of any of the other bases that I occupied. Sure, it bombed the crap out of them, but it never followed up with ground troops. A competent human opponent would have probably disabled and recaptured Koumac within a week and likely PV within a month. Deprived of those two bases, the assault would have failed because I never was able to take L'ville.

Second of all, this may be billed as a Navy game, but I'm sorry to say that I am convinced that aircraft RULE. For instance:
- Usually CV's are treated as the highest value assets on the board. This is true only if there is no suitable airbase in range or prospective targets. Once a chain of airbases is established CV's are redundant.
- In a battle between LBA and a CV force the CV's will lose almost every time (except maybe early in the game against exceptionally weak allied bases).
- After about October 1942, the largest single factor in the game will likely by US LBA. In each of the games I have played (including this one) US LBA was the dominant tactical arm. US Medium and heavy bombers are literally a steamroller that will flatten all before them, particularly once they start to gain experience. It is not unusual for the allied player to mount raids with 200+ bombers by Nov/Dec 1942.

This, then should drive the following strategies:

- Typical Japanese strategy should be to establish a line of bases which are as isolated as possible from large allied air bases. Then defend forward of this line to prevent airbases from being built. Once the US LBA dominance kicks in, the allied player can take just about anything within 6 hexes of an airbase apart piece by piece. The Japanese player has to utilize the range advantage in the IJNAF aircraft by basing aircraft where they are able to hit invasion fleets, but where their bases are safe from escorted bombing attacks. Note that this strategy will start to come apart when P-38's start to arrive.

- Typical Allied strategy will be to hold on to forward airbases. If airbases are lost, establish new ones ASAP to at least provide CAP to the re-invasion that will ultimately be mounted. If a Japanese base is in range use the following prescription:
First, pound any aribases that can attack the invasion fleet into submission, second sink any ships that venture into range, third pound the ground troops for about a week, then invade.


Amateurs talk about firepower - professionals talk about logistics! Boy oh boy is this ever true. UV will make you pay for overextending yourself. Not only do you have to devote more supply resources to feeding the long link, that devotion of resources itself eats up the resources in the pipeline. Also, combat resources become increasingly dedicated to preserving the supply line so that further offensive action becomes impossible. This was brought home very clearly to me in my campaign. Just supporting L'ville basically used up almost all of my available surface combat units and most of my aircraft reserve as well.

Which brings up my last point - it's a long war! In my campaign the naval and air combat power of the Japanese forces was essentially expended by the time the game ended. I would guess that 85% of my ships had 15% or more system damage. Most of the carriers were down to 50% or less complement of a/c (as I kept using them to reinforce the airfields). Most air groups were depleted (especially the bombers). Basically, I expended all my reserves to get the AV condition. In any real campaign this would have been suicide. I think learning to husband resources for a long campaign may be one of the toughest things to learn in playing UV. I won't be surprised to hear of some long campaigns where one side looked like an easy victor right up until the last six months only to have the whole thing come apart in a hurry as the lack of reserves is suddenly exposed by an enemy that planned better for the long term.

Comments? questions? queries? complaints?

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Iain Christie
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"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
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- James Keelaghan

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A Check for Iain! - 5/15/2002 3:08:31 AM   
Mojo

 

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I think David owes Iain a check too. I would have probably eventually bought UV but it was the his AAR that got me fuzzed up to the point where I couldn't wait to preorder.

Now I'm going to start a new thread whining about when can we expect Europa Fleet Actions?;)

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good - 5/15/2002 3:31:17 AM   
cpt_Venomous

 

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good work Christie, game does sound realistic, just by reading your AARs should make most of us do less mistakes and perform better from start. Thanks for the tutorial Iain.

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- 5/15/2002 3:34:36 AM   
thantis

 

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Your review is a great testament to UV as it applied to historical limitations and logistical problems. Its almost like reading out of a post-war military summation of the Pacific Campaign.

The Japanese (and even the Americans) can easily spread themselves too thin, then be forced to throw in everything (including the reserves) to keep what they conquered early on.

I can't wait to get my hands the game (which forces the player to deal with logistics). No more conducting operations without fuel and supply considerations. Hopefully this will usher in another golden age of wargame development to even eclipse the SSI/SSG heyday in the 1980's.

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Re: Summing Up - 5/15/2002 3:57:34 AM   
Supervisor

 

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[QUOTE]Comments? questions? queries? complaints?[/QUOTE]
You found that it's the US medium bombers that are dangerous for shipping and [B]not[/B] the heavy bombers (with their level bombing), right? I'm fairly sure this is the case, but thought I'd double check.

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- 5/15/2002 4:20:25 AM   
IChristie

 

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[QUOTE]You found that it's the US medium bombers that are dangerous for shipping and not the heavy bombers (with their level bombing), right? I'm fairly sure this is the case, but thought I'd double check.[/QUOTE]

Early in the game almost all US LBA is pretty ineffective against shipping. Only the naval air groups (SBD's and TBF's) are very effective. As the campaign goes on the LBA gradually becomes more effective. I did not keep careful track of which types of bombers scored hits. I know that B-17's from Noumea did hit ships at L'ville. Bear in mind that typical raids consisted of 40+ bombers so even if their effectivenes is marginal, they're going to eventually sink something.

I'm pretty sure If you want US LBA to be really effective against shipping you have to spend a lot of effort training to get their experience levels up. Mind you, by the of the game the AI was habitually fielding 200+ SBD's for a single raid. If those bombers had been within range of my ships it would have been game over!
Because of the range from Noumea to L'ville the AI was forced to use his dive bombers against airfields (at Koumac and Basse Poya) and his B-17's against shipping - a good deal for me!

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Iain Christie
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"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
It's better to light a candle than stand and curse the dark"

- James Keelaghan

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Post #: 404
- 5/15/2002 4:43:18 AM   
Hartmann

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by IChristie
[B]

Early in the game almost all US LBA is pretty ineffective against shipping. Only the naval air groups (SBD's and TBF's) are very effective. As the campaign goes on the LBA gradually becomes more effective. I did not keep careful track of which types of bombers scored hits. I know that B-17's from Noumea did hit ships at L'ville. Bear in mind that typical raids consisted of 40+ bombers so even if their effectivenes is marginal, they're going to eventually sink something.
[/B][/QUOTE]

That's exactly how it should be! :)

Level bombing of ships with the big bombers almost never yielded satisfying results because, typically, the level bombers fligh comparatively high - too high to have a good mark unless the sea is densely plastered with ships. You could try to fly as low as possible, but this in turn should not prove healthy for the big planes unless there is very sparse triple A and/or CAP.

Hartmann

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Post #: 405
- 5/15/2002 5:11:01 AM   
Crocky


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The medium bombers are the real threat to the Japanese Rick and I are up to October in our AAR and Im regularly getting raids against some of my bases by 60+ B25 and B26s, I think its only going to get worse, Im finding the my fighters are trading one for one with the medium bombers and probably around 2 for 1 against the heavies....you boys will find out in due course

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- 5/15/2002 5:56:00 AM   
IChristie

 

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Yes, whither goest the US medium and heavy bombers - so goest the destruction of Japanese bases.

Interesting trivia note: B-25's can hit Rabaul from Gili Gili, but not from Port Moresby. Another good reason to keep the US from building there.

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Iain Christie
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"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
It's better to light a candle than stand and curse the dark"

- James Keelaghan

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- 5/15/2002 9:18:43 AM   
Joel Billings


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You will find that B-17's will chew up both enemy airfields and friendly supplies. They take a lot to keep going and are only marginal against ships and only at lower than historical altitudes. The medium bombers can be great against ships, once their experience is up, because they can start skip bombing and strafing. Sure they take the losses against warships, but against transport convoys they do very well. They can also be effective against enemy bases (not as good as the B-17's) while not using up the supplies that the heavies require (although still more than the single engine bombers). American airpower is dominent given you can keep them in supply close to the enemy.

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- 5/15/2002 10:14:22 AM   
1089

 

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Hey just a few more views and this thread goes over 20,000. That should be a record that's hard to beat until Mogami posts his AAR. ;)

kp

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I don't think Mogami's or anyones AAR will top IC's count. - 5/16/2002 9:56:08 PM   
Ron Saueracker


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We are going to be too busy with our very own copy's to drool vicariously through someone elses.:D

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Re: I don't think Mogami's or anyones AAR will top IC's... - 5/16/2002 11:14:07 PM   
1089

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ron Saueracker
[B]We are going to be too busy with our very own copy's to drool vicariously through someone elses.:D [/B][/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, some of us are still looking at Order Status--New.

:(
kp

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Who's da Man - 5/17/2002 1:21:53 AM   
IChristie

 

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So I want to know is now that you have all been sacked from the General staff and given commands of your own - who's gonna be the first to be MAN enough to try the "Luganville Gambit" in their own game?

Patiently waiting with beatific smile firmly in place...

:cool:

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Iain Christie
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"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
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---------- 20 000 -------------- - 5/17/2002 2:06:24 AM   
IChristie

 

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Bump

We cracked 20,000 views. Way to go team!

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Iain Christie
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Re: ---------- 20 000 -------------- - 5/17/2002 2:36:38 AM   
1089

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by IChristie
[B]Bump

We cracked 20,000 views. Way to go team! [/B][/QUOTE]

Congrats. and bump.

kp
:)

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- 5/17/2002 2:59:14 AM   
IChristie

 

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[QUOTE]Congrats. and bump. [/QUOTE]

I can't take the credit. Though I and a certain "forward firing cruiser" make up about 50% of the posts I did a quick count and there are 52 different posters listed. Now that's team work! :D

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Iain Christie
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"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
It's better to light a candle than stand and curse the dark"

- James Keelaghan

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- 5/17/2002 3:26:14 AM   
ADavidB


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In retrospect, was your "Luganville Gambit" doomed from the beginning by a lack of fighting troops? I seem to remember reading in the past that it typically took a 3 - 4 to 1 advantage in assulting troops to take a position by attack. Certainly in Pacwar one usually needed at least a 3 - 4 to 1 advantage, and often a 10:1 advantage in later versions agains the Japanese.

Was it simply a case of not having enough combat troops around that made you decide to attack with what you did? ( It reminds me of the Japanese counter attacks on Guadelcanal which were always done at poor odds, and then thrown back with serious losses. )

Thanks -

Dave Baranyi

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Luganville Doomed? - 5/17/2002 3:30:55 AM   
IChristie

 

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I think you are probably correct.

You will probably see from the posts at the time that I was quite concerned about the number of allied troops in Luganville.

The original plan had called for a raid on Koumac to try and draw US ground troops away from Luganville. In fact, I jumped the gun and did not leave enough time for any reaction to take place, but it probably would not have mattered because the AI never did try to retake the small bases anyway (which is exactly why GG and JB wanted to see what would happen if such a strategy was tried).

If I was going to try it again I would do it differently. Mainly, I would hold off the ground invasion until I had successfully isolated L'ville by sea and air for at least a month. Then I would try the invasion again with fresh troops.

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Iain Christie
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"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
It's better to light a candle than stand and curse the dark"

- James Keelaghan

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Post #: 417
- 5/17/2002 3:44:48 AM   
ADavidB


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Thanks for the comments.

Another thought that came to mind while reading your AAR, as well as the others over the past number of weeks - why can't the Allied player take a conservative approach for much of 1942 and ignore the Solomons and Japanese activities in NG, then do a "reverse strategy" in late 1942 of bring in overwhelming forces forward to avoid a Japanese automatic win?

The AI seemed to fritter away a lot of resources early in your AAR in a vain attempt to interdict you in the Solomons. But if the Allied player instead built up all those small bases in the South Pacific at the same time that the Japanese player was building up the Solomons, then by the time the Japanese player was ready to try to move, the Allied player would have overwhelming air power and still have sea and land forces available.

I also noticed in Mogami's AAR that he has been "stung" by using historically-sized TFs and is now going to larger TFs. That used to be the "rule" in Pacwar too - the side with the most ships in a TF had the best chance to come out a "winner" in any given battle, just because the way the ships fired at each other. So a strategy that held back Allied ships under air cover until late '42 would allow the Allied player to put to sea with overwhelming TFs. BTW - is there a limit on ships in a TF as there was in Pacwar?

( Sorry for all the questions, but I'm waiting until the company in Markam gets UV in stock before I buy it. )

Thanks again -

Dave Baranyi

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- 5/17/2002 4:07:15 AM   
IChristie

 

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[QUOTE]Another thought that came to mind while reading your AAR, as well as the others over the past number of weeks - why can't the Allied player take a conservative approach for much of 1942 and ignore the Solomons and Japanese activities in NG, then do a "reverse strategy" in late 1942 of bring in overwhelming forces forward to avoid a Japanese automatic win? [/QUOTE]

An interesting question. Here's my $.02 (CDN). Firstly, the autovictory can only be achieved by taking bases very far south so even conceding the Solomons to the Japanese will not ensure their victory.

However, IMHO the allies want to contest PM and Lunga for the simple reason that if they lose them they have no fwd bomber bases. As I said in an earlier post, by late '42 allied LBA is the dominant tactical weapon in the area. BUT, the allied bombers have pretty restricted ranges and they require BIG airbases (size 4 or larger) to fly from. If you let Lunga and PM go, you will have no fwd bases for the bombers. Without them you will be depending on carriers to gain and hold air superiority which is a high risk strategy. Also, naval air does not do a very good job of CAS (IMHO) whereas the US medium and heavy bombers kick major gound troop butt.

[QUOTE]But if the Allied player instead built up all those small bases in the South Pacific at the same time that the Japanese player was building up the Solomons, then by the time the Japanese player was ready to try to move, the Allied player would have overwhelming air power and still have sea and land forces available. [/QUOTE]

By all means, if Lunga cannot be held, new bases should be built immediately so that they can get up to size in time to be ready for the influx of air groups in the fall of '42. However, building these bases is no simple matter because they have to be supplied and teh supply chain will be within air interdiction range of Japanese bombers at Lunga which can reach all the way to Luganville from Lunga.

For my money, Lunga and PM should be contested vigorously by the allies. Their eventual recapture will be much more expensive than their defense, almost every time.

_____________________________

Iain Christie
-----------------
"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
It's better to light a candle than stand and curse the dark"

- James Keelaghan

(in reply to IChristie)
Post #: 419
- 5/17/2002 4:12:26 AM   
Joel Billings


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25 ship limit, but the diseconomies of scale come into play when a TF is over 15 ships. For combat TF's 15 ships is the optimum size in the game as all of the ships will perform at full effectiveness in combat. Over 15, and you start losing performance. Of course for transport TF's that don't expect to fight, 25 is ok.

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