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RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 7/30/2008 3:12:50 PM

Edfactor

Posts: 106
Joined: 6/13/2008
From: Dallas
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Can this be condensed into a formula that could logically be applied to many situations/scenarios?

For instance for all air units my thinking is like this:
Is it out of date? if yes then i may be scrap it
Is it a Naval Air unit? if yes then keep it
Is it a fighter with a 7 or higher air to air rating? if yes then keep it
Is it a tac bomber with a 6 or higher tac rating? if yes then keep it
then think about the size of my force pool, is it large? if so then scrapping the worst units may be worthwhile. If i have 23 fighter(2) in my forcepool then it is probably worth it to scrap 4 of them as long as they are 4 of the weaker fighters in the pool even if they are good enough unit in and of themselves - since i won't likely be building out the entire pool it would make sence to improve the pool even at the sacrifise of units i would normally consider worth keeping.

This may be too complex - it might be easier just to list all the units that people think should be scrapped, and then have the AI scrap them as soon as it can.

(in reply to Orm)

Post #: 61

RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 7/30/2008 5:58:48 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edfactor

Can this be condensed into a formula that could logically be applied to many situations/scenarios?�

For instance for all air units my thinking is like this:
Is it out of date? if yes then i may be scrap it
Is it a Naval Air unit? �if yes then keep it
Is it a fighter with a 7 or higher air to air rating? �if yes then keep it
Is it a tac bomber with a 6 or higher tac rating?� if yes then keep it
then think about the size of my force pool, is it large? if so then scrapping the worst units may be worthwhile.� If i have 23 fighter(2) in my forcepool then it is probably worth it to scrap 4 of them as long as they are 4 of the weaker fighters in the pool even if they are good enough unit in and of themselves - since i won't likely be building out the entire pool it would make sence to improve the pool even at the sacrifise of units i would normally consider worth keeping.

This may be too complex - it might be easier just to list all the units that people think should be scrapped, and then have the AI scrap them as soon as it can.

Your ideas are good but for the AI Opponent.

What this thread is concerned with is the default scrap lists to provide to new players so they: (1) do not have to struggle with these decisions right at the beginning of the game, (2) get the benefit of accumulated years of playing the game from experienced players, and (3) are not placed at a distinct disadvantage due to poor decision making (irrevokable decisions) early in the game.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Edfactor)

Post #: 62

RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 7/30/2008 7:26:46 PM

sajbalk

Posts: 264
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From: Davenport, Iowa
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I will agree with Orm except:

for France, I would not scrap the MTN unit; you never know when Germany will be in Paris.
for US, I would keep the INF to garrison the Pacific and breakdown later.

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Steve Balk
Iowa, USA

(in reply to Orm)

Post #: 63

RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 7/30/2008 8:54:59 PM

brian brian

Posts: 3191
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Scrapping is one of the skills in playing WiF. I wish Steve all the best in teaching the AI how to do this.

Everyone has their defaults for Global War. I would comment that I would never ever scrap any sea-lift for the USA or CW, particularly for the USA. TRS/AMPH are re-org points if handled correctly, and force multipliers from the mid-game on. Russia can scrap all the lift it wants. Germany could, but then again they could not. Germany can very carefully leave or not leave clues about possibilities of Sea Lion via their scrapping and builds. That's the same thinking as a repeated comment above - never scrap an ATR.

But I've scrapped ATRs, specifically when I was Germany playing for a no-Italy, sneaky 1940 Sea Lion. Who says you have to take Paris before you get ashore in the UK? Once you do, it is nice to get the BV-222 and the Gigants when you really want them. And I've scrapped a few Italian ATR/LND3-s to improve that pool. Italy does eventually get two regular ATRs after all, and it can be easier to just build those than another marginally useful model. The new Lend Lease rules improve this situation though, as the Germans can now just fly the good plane to Italy...but it isn't easy for them to draw the good Ju88 LND3 either.

An essential skill for Russia is managing the scrapping of land units. Once you are back to the corners of your front in Konigsberg and Bucharest, you will wish you didn't just draw a bunch of those old black-print units. At the very end, Germany will see this light as well. For Russia I would scrap the weak at-start MOT but nothing else until the fun begins. But then it starts to become important eventually. I think in the long run the game will reward this thinking even more than it does currently as the new Offensive Points rule replaces Offensive Chits. I tend to scrap MOT in general for any MP, but never all possible.

A small point about scrapping that is hard to remember is that for the units (for active MPs) that are three years or older, you can always keep them in the pool when taken as a loss in combat and then make the scrapping decision during the build phase. With newer units you can't do this of course.

For the USA I would scrap the possible weak INF and GARR. You can garrison everything in sight...but Japan can't take it all anyway. They will be more interested in things with an economic return. I'd rather build out the lift-able units like all the Marines and Divs possible. It also makes it a little cheaper to get both white-print INF come J/F 41, and you will still have plenty of land units to deploy in the Pacific. Later in the war the white-print GARR units make ideal troops to load on an AMPH, for any country. Just think about the opening scene in Saving Private Ryan for an example.

For France you might want to keep both MTN units in the pool. If you get the at-start one killed, there will be two at the Vichy phase, and then Vichy and Free France each get one. If there is only one in the pool, Vichy France gets it. This is true of all the French units; so since they don't start with and won't be building any of those neat ATR/LND bombers, keep them all to maximize what Free France can get.

For the CW I don't scrap the Nimrod with the 4 range. It can gain you an extra box with some desperately needed FTR cover. I tend to put it on the Eagle for duty in the Eastern Med in 1940.

Italy has a tough decision on the guns. I pray to get the AA in Italy. But it is also nice to have some ART that is doubled on surprise when Italy wants to break in to the French Alps.

I would scrap all the SUBs you don't need at set-up for any country except maybe the USA. Plenty more will be appearing in your force pool. The latest 2007 set of ShipsinFlames counters change all the pre-war SUBs a great deal and there are few that are very good. I'm not sure I would even cover a sea area threatened only by a SUB in the '0' box.

(in reply to sajbalk)

Post #: 64

RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 7/30/2008 11:45:29 PM

Sewerlobster

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From: Reading, Pa. USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Your ideas are good but for the AI Opponent.
What this thread is concerned with is the default scrap lists to provide to new players so they: (1) do not have to struggle with these decisions right at the beginning of the game, (2) get the benefit of accumulated years of playing the game from experienced players, and (3) are not placed at a distinct disadvantage due to poor decision making (irrevokable decisions) early in the game.

I think the AI scrap list should be a sufficient list for a new player to start with. Likewise I would hope the AI would not be hobbled with a poor scrap list. I think that for advanced players, scrapping is too personalized and thus I will accept what the programmer and the forums recommend; but when in doubt I don't scrap.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 65

RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 7/31/2008 12:18:07 AM

paulderynck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

For France you might want to keep both MTN units in the pool. If you get the at-start one killed, there will be two at the Vichy phase, and then Vichy and Free France each get one. If there is only one in the pool, Vichy France gets it. This is true of all the French units; so since they don't start with and won't be building any of those neat ATR/LND bombers, keep them all to maximize what Free France can get.

That might be LOC Vichy you are thinking of. In RAW Vichy there are no units to build for Vichy other than Territorials and naval units. It is true that having two mountain units will allow the FF one and having one will not because you always round up and since you remove half the units by type then FF gets none if there is only one in the force pool, and gets one if there are 2 or 3, etc.

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(in reply to brian brian)

Post #: 66

RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 7/31/2008 12:22:43 AM

Orm

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I rather have one stronger MTN on the map to secure the Italian border than to have a MTN for the free French to build.

-Orm

(in reply to paulderynck)

Post #: 67

RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 7/31/2008 12:28:57 AM

paulderynck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SewerStarFish

I think the AI scrap list should be a sufficient list for a new player to start with. Likewise I would hope the AI would not be hobbled with a poor scrap list. I think that for advanced players, scrapping is too personalized and thus I will accept what the programmer and the forums recommend; but when in doubt I don't scrap.

That is true and my feeling as well. Once I do the initial scrapping for the start of the scenario then I never look at scrapping anything until I'm about to build that type of unit. No point in scrapping stuff just because it is old when you have no occasion to use it. When that time comes you may find you overdid the scrapping and wish you had more of that unit type.

I always always always scrap the German 1935 37mm ATG in order to maximize the chance of getting the 88mm ATG on set-up. That unit is too important to add to the risk of not drawing it for set-up.

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(in reply to Sewerlobster)

Post #: 68

RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 7/31/2008 3:00:34 PM

composer99

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Germany begins play with all of its 1939 & earlier artillery in play (4 on the map and 1 on the spiral).

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~ Composer99

(in reply to paulderynck)

Post #: 69

RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 7/31/2008 5:51:01 PM

lomyrin

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With the new breakdown rules the small units if not scrapped can become sources for many Divisions without having to lose a large unit for breakdowns.

Lars

(in reply to composer99)

Post #: 70

RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 7/31/2008 6:20:49 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

With the new breakdown rules the small units if not scrapped can become sources for many Divisions without having to lose a large unit for breakdowns.

Lars

Very true indeed...

This way the "limited" unlimited breakdown rule is turning against us...

(in reply to lomyrin)

Post #: 71

RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 7/31/2008 9:28:44 PM

paulderynck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Germany begins play with all of its 1939 & earlier artillery in play (4 on the map and 1 on the spiral).

Well unless I have the wrong counter list again, they have 7 artillery in 1939 and the one from 1935 desperately needs scrapping. (BTW above I meant 88 mm AA not ATG). Otherwise there are 2 chances in 7 for you to have to build the 88 versus 1 in 6.

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Paul

(in reply to composer99)

Post #: 72

RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 7/31/2008 10:21:04 PM

sajbalk

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From: Davenport, Iowa
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Looking at Patrice's spreadsheet, there are only 5 guns up through 1939.

X Germany Germany ART AA 88 mm 1939 3 3 5 3 Div mot, hvy, red
X Germany Germany ART ART 105 mm 1936 3 3 4 3 Div tow, grey
X Germany Germany ART ART 150 mm 1939 4 2 4 3 Div tow, grey
X Germany Germany ART AT 50 mm 1938 2 3 3 3 Div tow, pink
X Germany Germany ART AT PzJag I 1939 2 6 5 4 Div self-prop, red

Sorry for the formatting.

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Steve Balk
Iowa, USA

(in reply to paulderynck)

Post #: 73

RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 7/31/2008 11:16:44 PM

Froonp

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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

Looking at Patrice's spreadsheet, there are only 5 guns up through 1939.

X Germany Germany ART AA 88 mm 1939 3 3 5 3 Div mot, hvy, red
X Germany Germany ART ART 105 mm 1936 3 3 4 3 Div tow, grey
X Germany Germany ART ART 150 mm 1939 4 2 4 3 Div tow, grey
X Germany Germany ART AT 50 mm 1938 2 3 3 3 Div tow, pink
X Germany Germany ART AT PzJag I 1939 2 6 5 4 Div self-prop, red

Sorry for the formatting.

This list is the right list.
Paul, you may have informations that predate AsA/AfA 2003. the ART were redone in 2003, and the oldest ones dumped for more newer ones.
See here for more info :
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/froon/WiF/counters/CSH15.html

(in reply to sajbalk)

Post #: 74

RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 7/31/2008 11:24:24 PM

brian brian

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Froonp to the rescue!

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 75

RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 8/1/2008 4:48:15 AM

paulderynck

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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

Looking at Patrice's spreadsheet, there are only 5 guns up through 1939.

X Germany Germany ART AA 88 mm 1939 3 3 5 3 Div mot, hvy, red
X Germany Germany ART ART 105 mm 1936 3 3 4 3 Div tow, grey
X Germany Germany ART ART 150 mm 1939 4 2 4 3 Div tow, grey
X Germany Germany ART AT 50 mm 1938 2 3 3 3 Div tow, pink
X Germany Germany ART AT PzJag I 1939 2 6 5 4 Div self-prop, red

Sorry for the formatting.

This list is the right list.
Paul, you may have informations that predate AsA/AfA 2003. the ART were redone in 2003, and the oldest ones dumped for more newer ones.
See here for more info :
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/froon/WiF/counters/CSH15.html

There! See - I scrapped it so throughly they took the unit right out of the game!

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Paul

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 76

RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 8/3/2008 5:24:30 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Here is Michael's revised scrap lists for Barbarossa. One change is that German units from 1938 and earlier are included (I fixed a program bug). Remember that this scenario is only 5 turns long, so production isn't that important, but the getting the best random draw at the beginning is very.

Attachment (1)

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to paulderynck)

Post #: 77

RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 8/4/2008 1:38:26 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Here are Michael's proposed scrap lists for Missed The Bus (which starts immediately after Vichy France has been declared). China scraps nothing.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 78

RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 8/4/2008 2:43:15 PM

micheljq

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Before scrapping MECs and Armors, remember they give a +2 on defense and +1 on offense (with 2D10 charts). The number of those units may also determine if you can attack or not on the blitzkrieg table. So scrapping for exemple the russians 5-6 MEC and 6-6 ARM just because they have a low power ratio, are you sure it is a good idea even in 1941?

I am speaking about Barbarossa for example.

< Message edited by micheljq -- 8/4/2008 2:45:05 PM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 79

RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 8/4/2008 5:14:55 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq

Before scrapping MECs and Armors, remember they give a +2 on defense and +1 on offense (with 2D10 charts). The number of those units may also determine if you can attack or not on the blitzkrieg table. So scrapping for exemple the russians 5-6 MEC and 6-6 ARM just because they have a low power ratio, are you sure it is a good idea even in 1941?

I am speaking about Barbarossa for example.

Barbarossa is only 5 turns long. So if you build something at the end of the first turn, and it spends 3 turns in construction, you might not get much use out of it. Units that arrive fast are much preferred. Also, if there are other, better, units still in the force pool, scrapping the weaker ones is a good idea, unless you think you are going to immediately run out of units to build.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to micheljq)

Post #: 80

RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 8/4/2008 5:35:53 PM

YohanTM2

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I would keep the German 4-2 sub and the JPN amphib

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here are Michael's proposed scrap lists for Missed The Bus (which starts immediately after Vichy France has been declared). China scraps nothing.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 81

RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 8/4/2008 6:17:11 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yohan

I would keep the German 4-2 sub and the JPN amphib

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here are Michael's proposed scrap lists for Missed The Bus (which starts immediately after Vichy France has been declared). China scraps nothing.

JPN amphib? Which unit is that?

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to YohanTM2)

Post #: 82

RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 8/5/2008 9:09:12 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Continuing Michael's proposed scrap lists. Here is the 1st of 3 screen shots for the scenario Decline and Fall.

There are only 8 turns in this scenario, so a long range building program is out of the question. Note that the French units are somewhat uncertain, since the declaration of Vichy France randomly removes some units from the game.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 83

RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 8/5/2008 9:14:33 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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2nd in the series. Another important point here is that the program changes the carrier air class numbers to reflect the current year. So if you are looking for the counters shown here in the counter sheet, they are likely to have higher class numbers.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 84

RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 8/5/2008 9:15:42 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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3rd and last in the series. At this point in the war, Italy has been conquered.

Attachment (1)

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 85

RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 8/5/2008 5:02:32 PM

composer99

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There's a UK 5-move 4-range TRS that I wouldn't scrap, myself in the Decline & Fall scrap list. It's as good as anything the CW has available (and maybe better than some of the other non-scrappable ships).

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(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 86

RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 8/6/2008 7:32:56 PM

michaelbaldur

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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

There's a UK 5-move 4-range TRS that I wouldn't scrap, myself in the Decline & Fall scrap list. It's as good as anything the CW has available (and maybe better than some of the other non-scrappable ships).

looks like a mistake ... I will change that ..

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(in reply to composer99)

Post #: 87

RE: Scrap Lists - Default - 8/12/2008 9:16:44 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Here are Michael's proposed default scrap lists for Day of Infamy. This scenario starts just before the attack on Pearl Harbor and only uses the Pacific map(s).