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Newbie "takin it in the shorts".... - 4/7/2002 1:30:21 AM   
Auslander


Posts: 14
Joined: 3/27/2002
From: DC
Status: offline 		So.... I discovered the hard way how hard it is to advance on defended postions. I'm playing "King of the Hill", and Jerry is schooling me on the finer arts of firing lanes and I keep getting mowed down! I really love this scenario so far (makes me pine for the good ol' ASL days) but I think it may be a bit over my head as a beginner. Any suggestions from the Grognards here on the board- I'm going to search later for some AARs on this scenario for some ideas on why I keep getting killed- until then, any suggestions on the best scenarios to start with as a green recruit?

Thanks,

Auslander (Chris)

_____________________________

'Tis on Earth my cohorts contend. Whosoever layeth down his arms Him shall I disown.

Yrjö Jylhä, "The Weary Soldiers"
Post #: 1
- 4/7/2002 2:52:09 AM   
Grenadier


Posts: 981
Joined: 5/10/2000
From: Newport Beach, CA USA
Status: offline 		The Tutorials are alway s good and I have read a lot of good things about "Wittmann's Gamble".:D

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Brent Grenadier Richards




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(in reply to Auslander)
Post #: 2
- 4/7/2002 2:55:55 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		Wittman's Gamble rules!!!

Auslander, if you are not using smoke (both arty and grenades), you will always get murdered! A single 81mm smoke round in front of a bunker or MG makes it useless, where HE makes it MAD!!!:eek: :mad:

Goblin

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Post #: 3
- 4/7/2002 3:03:38 AM   
Mojo

 

Posts: 915
Joined: 2/6/2002
From: Portland, Oregon USA
Status: offline 		I'm still new at this but here are some of my favorites listed by the designers to give them some props, thanks again guys!:

Redleg's
Menado Airstrip
The 5 Spanish Blue Division scenarios
The Rif Rebellion
Field Testing the T34/57

Wild Bill's
Flying Chindits
Grenadiers in a gully
Chiangs Nightmare
A wounded Tiger
The Wrong Hill
Bloody Tank Testing-37
Water to Blood
Lions of Ethiopia

Brent “Grenadier” Richards
The 3 Wittman Scenarios
The Matrix Moves out

Bryan “Marauder” Melvin's
Maleme

Mike Amos
Dicker Max
Turncoats

Paul Lewis
The Reduction of Calais

I've downloaded a ton of scenarios recently, most notably by M4 Jess, but I just haven't had an opportunity to play them yet. I've been playing a lot of "what if" battles in timed play. You know Marines against the Poles, Ghurkas against Marines, Finns vs Norway, Soviets vs Marines. Lots of :D :D

(in reply to Auslander)
Post #: 4
- 4/7/2002 3:06:50 AM   
Mojo

 

Posts: 915
Joined: 2/6/2002
From: Portland, Oregon USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brent
[B]The Tutorials are alway s good and I have read a lot of good things about "Wittmann's Gamble".:D [/B][/QUOTE]

You are too modest my friend! Wittman's Gamble" is classic.

MV, MV, MV, etc, etc, etc .....................................................

LOL:D

(in reply to Auslander)
Post #: 5
An old Grunts 2 cents worth - 4/7/2002 7:31:04 AM   
zaxilon

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 12/15/2001
From: PHX Arizona
Status: offline 		Auslander,
The scenarios posted above are great! But I think if I were to give you a few pointers about fireing and moving a bit and some resources management and some things to think about when you are working a scenario may help you to really learn some key things from these classic scenarios.

One thing that is very important is your artillery. Keep tabs on it with respect to your mobile forces and what appears to be key or strategic terrain. Keep an eye on the range capability of your various artillery and keep your mobile forces within these ranges if you expect to support them with it. Artillery has to major impacts. One is that a unit under fire gains suppression. Suppression can limit movement and actions in both attack and opportunity fire. Artillery can also block Line of Sight to your forces. This can be a big help if you have to cross open ground.

Another thing to consider is the effective ranges of your units weapons. Yes some of them have relatively long ranges but you need to think in terms of the range bands where you get the higher half of the effect of the weapon. Point blank to short ranges are the rule unless you have a weapon you know can be effective at the longer ranges.

Also keep in mind covering arcs of fire between your units. Be careful not to place units into areas where other units can not cover them. You also have to look at the ranges you have set for the various weapons each unit has and weather each weapon is active or not. You dont want to burn up what may be critical ammo on a non strategic target. For example. If you are carrying Demo charges, unless you know otherwise it might be wise to save them for really hard targets and not let them be used up fighting off infantry you come into contact with. Take a look at the weapons you have and relate it to the mission.

When moving be careful not to have a unit move long distances without moving other supporting units up along with it. By this I mean that for example, If you are moving an infantry platoon through a small village dont move one unit to the full extent of its movement before you move other units up to support it. You can fall into a bushwhack doing this. IMHO, move your units up slowly and look around and see just what is within you units field of vision and what is not. This way you can support your units as you move forward and not allow a squad to get chopped to pieces because you threw them out into the open so far that your supporting forces could not keep up with the distance they moved.

One thing to keep in mind, if you saw them they probably saw you. AND... just because you moved out of their field of vision does not mean you cant get smacked by artillery in a turn or two. When artillery is fired into an area where the observer can not see the impact hex then the rounds tend to be dispersed around the area. If your infantry or thin skinned vehicles are in open terrain you might get a bloody nose.

These are by no means all there is. Rather these are IMHO, some of the more fundamental and basic beginner building blocks to think of when you are first starting out. Try to keep your plans simple at first. Dont get extravegant. You can implement more sophisticated strategies as you learn more of the mechanics of the game along with the units and equipment as you go. Most of all pay attention to what you did and what happened and see if you can figure out the why in what happened. This is crucial to being able to learn from your successes as well as from your failures.

At any rate, Good Luck and Have Fun!!

Later,
Zaxilon :D

(in reply to Auslander)
Post #: 6
Re: Newbie "takin it in the shorts".... - 4/7/2002 7:40:09 AM   
parusski


Posts: 4804
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Jackson Tn
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Auslander
[B]So.... I discovered the hard way how hard it is to advance on defended postions. I'm playing "King of the Hill", and Jerry is schooling me on the finer arts of firing lanes and I keep getting mowed down! I really love this scenario so far (makes me pine for the good ol' ASL days) but I think it may be a bit over my head as a beginner. Any suggestions from the Grognards here on the board- I'm going to search later for some AARs on this scenario for some ideas on why I keep getting killed- until then, any suggestions on the best scenarios to start with as a green recruit?

Thanks,

Auslander (Chris) [/B][/QUOTE]

Auslander I have played this game for thousands of hours and still get my butt kicked. So, try the tutorials, but get ready for a rocky ride.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to Auslander)
Post #: 7
- 4/7/2002 8:25:51 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		Zaxilon gave some excellent advice.
Ill dish out some of what Ive learned to go along with that.


Ive found the US Army doctrine of leapfrogging is very effective.

Take one squad with good morale and a leader that has a high rally rating (A LMG in the squad always helps) and move it until you see the dug in enemy. Once this unit gets fire upon rally it down, then start sending a torrent of fire back. Keep rallying and fire using all your oppurtunities. If this unit becomes badly damaged or the jobs not done then bring in another unit. Once youve supressed them enough bring up another unit to see if any more of their units need supressing. If not, run your units as close as possible to the pinned unit (1 hex away is what I try for). If this unit runs into trouble rally it and supress what ever is firing at you. Units with even the lowest EXP will get plenty of hits at ranges under 100 yards. Units with high exp and good wepaons will almost always gets kills (plus you can use grenades which almost always get kills.) Once this unit is routed or destroyed move another unit forward and repeat the process.

This method will result in high casulaties but once you get the hang of it it will decide the issue in a very quick manner and works for me in almost every situation.

Another good think to remember is the flank attack. If you can, always look over the terrain and see if you can find a seam in their lines to hit their flank. This works very well against tanks in defenive postions, infantry, and especially bunkers. Armies since the begining of time have found that hitting their foe in the flanks works best.

Have fun.

_____________________________


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Post #: 8
- 4/7/2002 3:30:10 PM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		Auslander,

By-the-by, you do have a way with words! "Newbie 'Taking it in the shorts' "? I can't look at the title an not laugh!:)

Goblin

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Post #: 9
- 4/7/2002 9:25:49 PM   
Jasper

 

Posts: 174
Joined: 5/29/2001
From: I am from Mars
Status: offline 		Smoke and HE.

When I play Russian, I hate 88 both from the AA and Tiger tank....they are good, in fact superb at long range....and very accurate.....So I fire smoke in front of them about 3 to 4 square away and charge my T-34......just about a square or 2.....What happen next....The Tiger came out of the smoke to be slaughter by T-34.


88......one smoke right infront of it and no problem. Rush in ur light tank and it is either he killed u or he is dead ......sometime I think luck and lots of HE is what u needed to kill 88.....

(in reply to Auslander)
Post #: 10
- 4/8/2002 4:06:50 AM   
RayM

 

Posts: 310
Joined: 10/19/2000
From: Marlton, NJ USA
Status: offline 		Hang in there! I too have been learning the hard way and at last I'm seeing better results. Learning and employing small unit tactics without getting your units wiped out is always tough when you start out and the suggestions posted here represent a very good set to start with. I too ran too many hey-diddle-diddle-up-the-middle units that were very quickly chopped up. Or just stumbling into emplacements. A real bummer and what a surprise!

While hard at first, you will eventually develop "a situational awareness" of the particular battlefield on which you are operating and that will improve your ability to prevail. Knowing the capabilities and limitations of your units and their equipment/weapons is also big part of the learning curve for SPWAW. It is time well-spent.

As already mentioned, moving by leaps and bounds continues to work well and I have learned to always add a LMG or MMG to the mix. If possible, always try to supress the enemy first and then move in close. Learning to use your arty in this manner is also very important. Later, you can get creative such as laying down bombardments and then forcing ther enemy back into them.

After all of the moving and clicking is done, the hard part is when you eventually have to put that first unit next to the enemy and you just know that they'll take some hits. This is especially true for many of the Pacific scenarios that I personally prefer. Playing this theater certainly gives the idea of "up close and personal" a different menaing. Very spooky in many cases.

Above all, keep trying and learn from your mistakes. The nice thing is that you get to try again and again until you get a better result. Which is not true in the real world.

And don't be reluctant to ask for suggestions or help...it's all part of your learning curve. Good luck.

(in reply to Auslander)
Post #: 11
Thanks everybody!! - 4/8/2002 4:55:18 AM   
Auslander


Posts: 14
Joined: 3/27/2002
From: DC
Status: offline 		I want to thank all you guys for stepping up with these great suggestions. I'm printing them out and deciding what my next step will be. It is a little daunting to think I have 200+ scenarios waiting to be played PLUS MCNA which keeps me awake at night!!

I think I will break down each of the suggestions and practice them repeatedly until I know how/when to use them. Knowing my units seems like an excellent starting place as well. In "King of the Hill", it seems I have just two on-board mortars at my disposal, so I think I have to work on getting them close enough to be useful for smoke... Is it me, or is that scen just crawling with entreanched Germans??? The first time I played (and lost) I was up to turn 12 and I hadn't even made it to the foot of the hill, and 3 tanks were already hosed. The first lesson I learned is to stay away from those long streets- Jerry loves to shoot down 'em. I have been trying to cut through the bocage to make it to my destination but it has been such slow going. I'm sure the smoke is the answer here.

Back to it....

Auslander (Chris)

_____________________________

'Tis on Earth my cohorts contend. Whosoever layeth down his arms Him shall I disown.

Yrjö Jylhä, "The Weary Soldiers"

(in reply to Auslander)
Post #: 12
Hang In there! - 4/8/2002 9:45:12 PM   
John David


Posts: 373
Joined: 3/21/2002
From: Montreal, Quebec
Status: offline 		Auslander,

Hang in there buddy. Most of us, no matter how long we have played SPWAW or the original SP's, still get ther butts kicked in once in awhile.

Sometimes, I find myself being so invovled in a battle that I will make a rookie mistake with one of my units and watch it get blasted into smithereens!:( Hey, it happens.

The advice that has been offered on this thread is again another reason why the SPWAW forum and the people who are members,
make this site and this game so much fun!

John

_____________________________

The only thing good about war, is it's ending!


(in reply to Auslander)
Post #: 13
- 4/8/2002 10:12:00 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Darn!! when I was going to respond to this post Whitman's Gamble was going to be my comment errrrrr.

My most significant comment otherwise to new players is this, when playing the game, recognise when to stop, waste a turn or maybe two, bring in some artillery fire support, or just maneuver slowly.

BE THOROUGH!!

This aint one of them kiddie style arcade type games where its always go go go shoot shoot shoot do something always every turn with every unit.

Steel Panthers and the mob that has helped it evolve is about recreating the actual battlefield (in as much as that is actually possible). To ignore what would be going through the minds of the people that would be there that you are depicting will usually stick you with results that may seem wrong to you the gamer.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Auslander)
Post #: 14
- 4/8/2002 10:38:48 PM   
11Bravo


Posts: 2082
Joined: 4/5/2001
Status: offline 		Auslander,

Ahhh. The King of the Hill scenerio. One of my favorites, and I wrote an AAR on it.

Try not exposing any armor until your infantry is well engaged and making steady progress. Use your tank dozers as hedge busting infantry support. They will function briefly in this role then become smoking flaming wrecks as the hidden ATG's take them out. You're men (really just you) will be looking for the tell tale flash from the ATG. Once you have found one, mortar its location, move out a regular Sherman, and fire smoke to blind its LOS. Keep moving up your infantry, and support with the Stuart's and Shermans.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Write up an AAR and post it for us to laugh...er comment on. :) Look for mine and note the overly ambitious approach I used and my ultimate failure. I have never played a tougher scenerio than this one.

You will get some surprising results. I replayed this recently, and one of my Stuarts took 6 consecutive hits from an ATG, all ricochets. You will find there are little islands of safe ground in your approach where you can shelter your cautiously approaching armor from the ATG's, and the ATthing armed infantry units. That bocage terrain is a nightmare. And the scenerio is tougher now then when it was designed, due to increases in the killing ability of LMG's. The German infantry is tough.

I would also recommend advancing on the narrowest possible front to limit your losses against his spread out defenses.

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Post #: 15
- 4/8/2002 11:46:05 PM   
kshinner

 

Posts: 58
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: Livonia, MI
Status: offline 		Auslander,

You can also learn a lot by playing PBEM. It's usually via The School of Hard Knocks, but there's no better way to learn about cover than to have someone point it out with an AP round.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Auslander)
Post #: 16
ROFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!! - 4/9/2002 12:00:16 AM   
Auslander


Posts: 14
Joined: 3/27/2002
From: DC
Status: offline 		So, what you are telling me is that I chose one of the HARDEST scenarios available as my first one to try after the tutorials!! And I thought I was just stupid.... Once I finish this one, I think I'll head out to the Eastern front armed only with my Speedos and a copy of "Rosie" magazine. I really like feeling prepared for these scenarios.

Auslander (Chris)

<..Still looking for "the Teletubbies assault on CandyLand" scenario..maybe I will have better results there>

_____________________________

'Tis on Earth my cohorts contend. Whosoever layeth down his arms Him shall I disown.

Yrjö Jylhä, "The Weary Soldiers"

(in reply to Auslander)
Post #: 17
Neutralizing a Flak18 or Pak43 - 4/9/2002 6:31:50 PM   
Tuomas Seijavuori

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline 		My 0.02 euros.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jasper:
88......one smoke right infront of it and no problem. [/QUOTE]

*nod*

By one smoke do you mean firing a smoke round with a tank main gun or did you mean indirect fire from, say, light mortars?

If you meant direct fire, I have a question: wouldn't the 88 get a chance to op-fire at you sometimes before your smoke round leaves the barrel? I seem to recall that can happen under some circumstances.

[QUOTE]Rush in ur light tank and it is either he killed u or he is dead ......sometime I think luck and lots of HE is what u needed to kill 88.....[/QUOTE]

This is where a single cheap mortar can work wonders. It will probably never destroy the 88, but it can suppress it sufficiently so that you will get that crucial first shot from close range.

The same mortar can deliver the smoke screen too, of course.

(in reply to Auslander)
Post #: 18
- 4/9/2002 9:37:19 PM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		A tanks smoke discharger only has a range of two, if you use the smoke cloud icon on the menu. It has a range of one, and will fill all three hexes on the front arc of the tank if you hit the the 'D' key on the keyboard. In either case, its just like any other shot, you get it off first.

Goblin

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Post #: 19
- 4/10/2002 2:21:19 AM   
11Bravo


Posts: 2082
Joined: 4/5/2001
Status: offline 		Goblin,

Tuomas was referring to firing a smoke round with the main gun, using the X key. This is like the Z key for firing HE. Only restriction is having Smoke, and targeting a hex within range and LOS. Sometimes the action fails, and nothing happens. If you knew all this, accept my apologies.

Tuomas,

More than likely, when you move your tank into the open to line up your shot, the ATG will get a shot. I recommend using a less worthwhile armored target as bait. And suppressing the ATG with mortars or artillary.

Some light mortars, like the U.S. 60mm found in the King of the Hill scenerio, do not fire smoke. For this you would need the 81mm or 4.2mm. Otherwise I agree with your tactics. For the King of the Hill scenerio, you need to conserve the Shermans (your only source of long distance smoke) to engage spotted (either in the game sense or with your eyes) ATG's.

It is especially humbling to note how small those ATG's are in that scenerio and their ability to eat your armor. Hint: they are not 88's.

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Squatting in the bush and marking it on a map.

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Post #: 20
- 4/10/2002 2:30:49 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		The problem with ATG's (a blessing if your fighting them) is that once the take a hit or 2 they abandon their gun pretty quick.


11Bravo


[QUOTE]For this you would need the 81mm or 4.2mm[/QUOTE]

I think you meant the 4.2 inch

4.2mm...you might as well be using a catapult. :D

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Post #: 21
- 4/10/2002 2:56:47 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		11 Bravo, I did not!! Wow, I feel like a certain pink bunny: I keep learning, and learning, and learning....:eek:

Thanks, gotta try it!

Goblin

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Post #: 22
- 4/10/2002 3:50:02 AM   
Tuomas Seijavuori

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by 11Bravo:
Sometimes the action fails, and nothing happens. [/QUOTE]

This is exactly what I was talking about (not the D key). However, my vague memory was that I have received op-fire after failing to fire a smoke round with the main gun. Can anyone confirm it is possible?

(in reply to Auslander)
Post #: 23
Tuomas - 4/10/2002 4:20:16 AM   
Gary Tatro

 

Posts: 1213
Joined: 2/1/2002
From: MA, US
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tuomas Seijavuori
[B]

This is exactly what I was talking about (not the D key). However, my vague memory was that I have received op-fire after failing to fire a smoke round with the main gun. Can anyone confirm it is possible? [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes this is true, if you try to fire smoke and fail your opponent gets a chance to opportunity fire at you. This also goes for trying to fire at any opponent and fail dut to range, your opponent will have a chance to return opportunity fire. What does that mean, check your weapons ranges and smoke ammo by right clicking on the unit and vewing it before firing if you are not sure.

Learned the hard way, had a tank killed by opportunity fire when I tried to discharge smoke and did not have any left.

_____________________________

"Are you going to do something or just stand there and bleed"

(in reply to Auslander)
Post #: 24
- 4/11/2002 2:27:01 PM   
Karnaaj

 

Posts: 243
Joined: 3/17/2002
From: Spokane WA USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jasper

When I play Russian, I hate 88 both from the AA and Tiger tank....they are good, in fact superb at long range....and very accurate.....So I fire smoke in front of them about 3 to 4 square away and charge my T-34......just about a square or 2.....What happen next....The Tiger came out of the smoke to be slaughter by T-34.

[/QUOTE]

Wish I could scan and post the "danger zone" diagram that the Germans printed for Tiger training; shows that from the front, the Tiger can "reach out" and still be safe for a good long distance versus a T-34... but that once you let it get close, you're up the foul-smelling tributary without visible means of locomotion. Betcha that diagram is available online somewhere...

(in reply to Auslander)
Post #: 25
- 4/14/2002 10:52:51 AM   
WhiteRook

 

Posts: 276
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Minneapolis, MN
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1

My most significant comment otherwise to new players is this, when playing the game, recognise when to stop, waste a turn or maybe two, bring in some artillery fire support, or just maneuver slowly.

BE THOROUGH!!

QUOTE]

[COLOR=red]Les is correct on this for sure! What I call victory hex fevor is the undoing of more green players than you can count![/COLOR] ;)

_____________________________


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Post #: 26
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