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Copy protection/DRM - 8/6/2008 4:06:32 AM   
PBI


Posts: 21
Joined: 2/10/2008
Status: offline 		What copy protection/DRM software does Matrix use on its games?

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RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/6/2008 6:50:35 AM   
EagleMountainDK


Posts: 517
Joined: 5/3/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Serial number....

You use it when installing the game and patches.


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Post #: 2
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/6/2008 7:26:47 AM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cougar_DK

Serial number....

You use it when installing the game and patches.


Yup - no calling home on installation, no Securom, no Starforce, no nothing - just a series of digits you have to enter.

Put the serial number you get upon purchase in a file along with the installation exe, burn them to a disk and you can re-install your game at infinitum.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to EagleMountainDK)
Post #: 3
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/6/2008 7:29:56 AM   
sabre100

 

Posts: 393
Joined: 5/23/2004
Status: offline 		In other words:  "THE BEST IN THE BUSINESS"  another reason why I buy Matrix games.  They rock and treat their customers with respect and as loyal customers and do not use whacky and intrusive DRM like many developers do.

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Post #: 4
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/6/2008 11:09:31 AM   
Hertston


Posts: 3564
Joined: 8/17/2002
From: Cornwall, UK
Status: offline 		What he said. To be honest, though, I'm starting to come around regarding some forms of protection when they are actually designed to make life convenient for the customer as well. The Stardock system is pretty good in that regard, and was very handy when I was populating a new PC recently. Just name and password and a few button clicks, no fannying about with disks and patches.

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Post #: 5
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/6/2008 11:49:02 AM   
Grell

 

Posts: 1064
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Matrix is amazing.

Regards,

Greg

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Post #: 6
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/6/2008 12:22:06 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston
What he said. To be honest, though, I'm starting to come around regarding some forms of protection when they are actually designed to make life convenient for the customer as well. The Stardock system is pretty good in that regard, and was very handy when I was populating a new PC recently. Just name and password and a few button clicks, no fannying about with disks and patches.


Yup - and then Stardock folds, the server will be shut down and you'll be left with ?

I'm very wary of any system I can't totally control myself. Right now I'm pretty sure that in 2030 I will still be able to install Conquest of the Aegean on WindozeSuperDeluxe2028 in Vista compatibility mode irrespective of the fact if Matrix Games is by then still around or not.

Nothing lasts forever, not even companies like Avalon Hill, 360 Pacific, Talonsoft - or more recently MadMinuteGames.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to Hertston)
Post #: 7
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/6/2008 12:29:25 PM   
PBI


Posts: 21
Joined: 2/10/2008
Status: offline 		So Matrix is still using a CD-Key and that's it?  Awesome.  Is it required for disk in drive?  The only game I have is EiA as a digital download and I'm assuming those work a little differently than actual disks.

In case anyone is wondering, this question is prompted by the ongoing debate on the Bioware forums regarding their DRM schemes and a current thread asking for suggestions on how to "do things better".  I realize the target audiences are different, but, still, nice to see how other companies do things.


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Post #: 8
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/6/2008 12:51:05 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		and here I thought Die Roll Modifiers varied from game to game!!

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Post #: 9
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/6/2008 1:16:26 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline 		The gaming market got pretty weird lately. I mean, it was always weird with constant forcing gamers to buy new hardware, etc. but that internet/telephone activation stuff, intrusive DRM and weird DRM that can activate because someone has a DVD drive from a "wrong" manufacturer, etc. only prove that most of gamers will accept anything just to get their newest drug.

It's nice to know that some companies still have respect for their customers.


quote:

ORIGINAL:  sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL:  Hertston
What he said.   To be honest, though, I'm starting to come around regarding some forms of protection when they are actually designed to make life convenient for the customer as well.   The Stardock system is pretty good in that regard, and was very handy when I was populating a new PC recently.  Just name and password and a few button clicks, no fannying about with disks and patches.


Yup - and then Stardock folds, the server will be shut down and you'll be left with ?

I'm very wary of any system I can't totally control myself. Right now I'm pretty sure that in 2030 I will still be able to install Conquest of the Aegean on WindozeSuperDeluxe2028 in Vista compatibility mode irrespective of the fact if Matrix Games is by then still around or not.

Nothing lasts forever, not even companies like Avalon Hill, 360 Pacific, Talonsoft - or more recently MadMinuteGames.

Exactly. Also, there's a question of forced patches - sometimes there are patches that make a game less playable/less realistic or even more buggy.


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Post #: 10
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/6/2008 2:19:04 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PBI
So Matrix is still using a CD-Key and that's it? 


Yup - you just need to input a serial number upon installation - that's it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PBI
Awesome.  Is it required for disk in drive? 

The only game I have is EiA as a digital download and I'm assuming those work a little differently than actual disks.


Nope - when you buy the disk version of a game you're actually getting the same installation exe as the digital download version, but burned on a cd and put in a dvd-box. The only real difference is that the disk version comes with a printed manual on top of the pdf-version which is part of the game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PBI
... ongoing debate on the Bioware forums regarding their DRM schemes and a current thread asking for suggestions on how to "do things better".  I realize the target audiences are different, but, still, nice to see how other companies do things.


Yeah, different target audience, but when you buy a game from Matrix, you buy it, you don't rent it until the publisher decides to pull the plug on the activation server.

A nice example is the last game released by Matrix : World War 2 - Road to Victory. It's also available from GamersGate for 1 dollar less than here. Wouldn't you gladly pay the extra dollar if it made sure that you could re-install your game in the future without having to ask permission from some server, which may still be up or not, first ?

In the long run Matrix is making a lot more money because of returning, satisfied customers and to be fair : they're not the only wargame publisher who does it this way. Shrapnel, AGEod and HPS also have comparable copy protection schemes which allow you to own a game you buy, not rent it.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to PBI)
Post #: 11
Harpoon - 8/6/2008 2:48:40 PM   
hermanhum


Posts: 2209
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Also, there's a question of forced patches - sometimes there are patches that make a game less playable/less realistic or even more buggy.


Sounds like you're a Harpoon ANW player...

It's good to know that we don't suffer this problem alone.

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Post #: 12
RE: Harpoon - 8/6/2008 2:59:38 PM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		/edit: wrong thread :)

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Post #: 13
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/6/2008 4:21:06 PM   
NefariousKoel


Posts: 2930
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Murderous Missouri Scum
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

What he said. To be honest, though, I'm starting to come around regarding some forms of protection when they are actually designed to make life convenient for the customer as well. The Stardock system is pretty good in that regard, and was very handy when I was populating a new PC recently. Just name and password and a few button clicks, no fannying about with disks and patches.


Unfortunately, that still qualifies as a "phone home" kind of setup. At least for updates.

I recently had a bout with SecuROM's shell extension making my Windows crash. I think this is one of the few forums I didn't complain about it in.

< Message edited by NefariousKoel -- 8/6/2008 4:23:02 PM >

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RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/6/2008 4:49:57 PM   
Terl


Posts: 609
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NefariousKoel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

What he said. To be honest, though, I'm starting to come around regarding some forms of protection when they are actually designed to make life convenient for the customer as well. The Stardock system is pretty good in that regard, and was very handy when I was populating a new PC recently. Just name and password and a few button clicks, no fannying about with disks and patches.


Unfortunately, that still qualifies as a "phone home" kind of setup. At least for updates.

I recently had a bout with SecuROM's shell extension making my Windows crash. I think this is one of the few forums I didn't complain about it in.


Actually Stardock is quite nice to use. The Impulse program (used to be Stardock Central) downloads the program. It tracks your serial as well. Yes, it "phones home" one time. It is not like Steam though in that Impulse need not be opened nor is any other check made when you start the game to play it. I like that and I like GamersGate as well. Steam however has to open every time you want to play one of their games.

I have been using Stardock for years now with WindowBlinds and GalCiv and more. Never had a problem. I never had an issue with GamersGate either. I find them not all that intrusive. Steam on the other hand I don't like as much. I still like the Matrix method the best though, don't get me wrong

< Message edited by Terl -- 8/6/2008 4:50:22 PM >

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Post #: 15
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/6/2008 5:57:20 PM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline 		Im starting to have trouble with som of the license system games. I have over ten of them allready and they all have different licences and I have to keep in mind the rules of each. If I forget them the developer will punish me by taking the game away from me. Ive written detailed notes that cover all the games but its getting kinda confusing allready. Also if my computer dies I might still loose everything.

Its good that matrix doesnt put up any of this crap.


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Post #: 16
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/6/2008 6:12:40 PM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		I have a quite simple approach on license policies. In case I'm interested in a title, I usually rent it from my local videostore. That goes for the majority of games but for those few I want to put on my shelf. Should the developer use Starforce or an activation system like Bioware recent did with Mass Effect, I'm going to skip it rather than paying 50,- bucks for something which is just good for 40 hours of gameplay.

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Post #: 17
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/6/2008 6:35:27 PM   
NefariousKoel


Posts: 2930
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Murderous Missouri Scum
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow

I have a quite simple approach on license policies. In case I'm interested in a title, I usually rent it from my local videostore. That goes for the majority of games but for those few I want to put on my shelf. Should the developer use Starforce or an activation system like Bioware recent did with Mass Effect, I'm going to skip it rather than paying 50,- bucks for something which is just good for 40 hours of gameplay.


Yep, I was thinking of buying Mass Effect recently and didn't for the activation system on it. Lost sale there, guys.

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Post #: 18
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/6/2008 6:36:49 PM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline 		Its not just big game companies but small ones have started to use licensing too. I.E all battlefront games are licenced. I dont think you can rent them from anywhere.

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Post #: 19
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/6/2008 6:38:05 PM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NefariousKoel
Yep, I was thinking of buying Mass Effect recently and didn't for the activation system on it. Lost sale there, guys.


The recent mass effect patch broke the game entirely btw. FPS drop to 10. Many gamers are reporting the whole game unplayable.

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Post #: 20
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/6/2008 8:06:16 PM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

Its not just big game companies but small ones have started to use licensing too. I.E all battlefront games are licenced. I dont think you can rent them from anywhere.


True. But on the other hand they didn't release anything good beyond CM 3. So it's no big loss for me.

There are still some indie companies around which actually deserve to get their titles purchased. Battlefront however are not among them anymore in my opinion. CM:Shockforce was bland and TOW rather abysmal.

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Post #: 21
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/6/2008 9:28:44 PM   
NefariousKoel


Posts: 2930
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Murderous Missouri Scum
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

quote:

ORIGINAL: NefariousKoel
Yep, I was thinking of buying Mass Effect recently and didn't for the activation system on it. Lost sale there, guys.


The recent mass effect patch broke the game entirely btw. FPS drop to 10. Many gamers are reporting the whole game unplayable.


Glad I didn't buy, then. We can't rent PC games here in the states so trying before buying is solely up to demos, if there even is one. And those aren't always very representative.

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Post #: 22
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/7/2008 1:24:28 AM   
Peter Fisla


Posts: 2503
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From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sabre100

In other words:  "THE BEST IN THE BUSINESS"  another reason why I buy Matrix games.  They rock and treat their customers with respect and as loyal customers and do not use whacky and intrusive DRM like many developers do.


Exactly, I agree 100%

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Post #: 23
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/7/2008 5:11:10 AM   
StormcloudCreations

 

Posts: 304
Joined: 7/14/2006
Status: offline 		Hey copy protection used to be really bad...those of you that remember the "Page 7, 4th paragraph, 13th word" BS that invaded games of the 80's and early 90's. But that didn't install intrusive software shells onto people's systems. Starforce was a travesty and I would actively avoid any game that used it.

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Post #: 24
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/7/2008 6:06:07 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StormcloudCreations

Hey copy protection used to be really bad...those of you that remember the "Page 7, 4th paragraph, 13th word" BS that invaded games of the 80's and early 90's. But that didn't install intrusive software shells onto people's systems. Starforce was a travesty and I would actively avoid any game that used it.


And then there were some you had to hold a red film over to read a symbol, word or whatever so as to prevent people from merely zeroxing manuals...

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Post #: 25
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/7/2008 7:05:09 AM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StormcloudCreations
Starforce was a travesty and I would actively avoid any game that used it.


Starforce is a virus as defined by our laws regarding malicious software. It gets installed without you asking for it and tampers with other software on your system. Sueing Russian maffiosi might not have been high on the list of our local equivalent of the DA, but that doesn't make it any less criminal.

It's pretty simple people : stop buying DRM'ed software and they'll give in. Look at what happened in the music industry : All major publishers now have DRM-free music, because consumers just stopped buying the DRM infected songs.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to StormcloudCreations)
Post #: 26
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/7/2008 7:17:49 AM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		I don't know how oyu worked the music industry one out, Eddie...I think the music industry is one of the most inward looking "screw our customers over time and again" industries out there!

You know, I can't even have the radio on at work. Know why? Because the company hasn't paid royalties to the music industry...something like £500pa. And the reason I can't play it? Some rubbish about making it enjoyable to work there, ergo the company are making out of it, ergo the music industry wants it's share....even though public radio has been paid for by the radio stations. The fact that I'm at work there because I like it, the people are nice, the work is good and I get paid well has bugger all to do with it.

The music industry is right up it's own arse.

Oh, and by the same law used to stop me listening to the radio at work, the potential is there to haul my arse into court because I was playing music loud enough in my car for other people to hear...public performance. Ridiculous.

(in reply to sterckxe)
Post #: 27
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/7/2008 8:16:31 AM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
I don't know how oyu worked the music industry one out, Eddie...I think the music industry is one of the most inward looking "screw our customers over time and again" industries out there!


http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/jan2008/tc2008013_398775.htm

"Sony BMG would become the last of the top four music labels to drop DRM, following Warner Music Group (WMG), which in late December said it would sell DRM-free songs through Amazon.com's (AMZN) digital music store. EMI and Vivendi's Universal Music Group announced their plans for DRM-free downloads earlier in 2007."

"The impetus to lift copyright protection represents a sea change for the recording industry, which for the better part of a decade has used DRM to guard against what it considers illegal distribution and duplication of songs purchased online. In abandoning DRM on à la carte song purchases, the labels could create a raft of new, less restrictive ways of selling music over the Internet"

In non-businessweek speech here's the timeline :

1) Music industry employs DRM
2) Customers find out they're getting screwed and stop buying music
3) Music industry has no other option but to abandon DRM and finds out to their amazement sales pick up again - who'd have thunked ?

Capitalism works - the game industry is slowly entering phaze 2 of the timeline above, the real smart publishers are already in phaze 3 (or never left it in the first place)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx















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Post #: 28
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/7/2008 10:55:37 AM   
orwell

 

Posts: 43
Joined: 11/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

A nice example is the last game released by Matrix : World War 2 - Road to Victory. It's also available from GamersGate for 1 dollar less than here. Wouldn't you gladly pay the extra dollar if it made sure that you could re-install your game in the future without having to ask permission from some server, which may still be up or not, first ?



I couldn't speak for all games on Gamersgate, but it's ridiculously easy to install, patch game, and put the game folder on a disc or flash drive for every Paradox Interactive game I've tried, including their latest titles.

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Post #: 29
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/7/2008 10:59:46 AM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		Orwell, I use Gamersgate also for titles I can't get elsewhere. However, I see Eddies point. There is no guarantee the servers will be around in the future.

Also, I've looked at what Gamersgate downloads onto your drive...have you ever tried to reinstall from those downloads? I couldn't see how...ended up deleting the directory and downloading again. Can't remember what title it was...I think it was Combat Mission: Shock Force

(in reply to orwell)
Post #: 30
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