Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if...

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Kharkov: Disaster on the Donets >> RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/16/2008 4:47:01 PM   
Howard7x


Posts: 213
Joined: 8/19/2006
From: Derby, England
Status: offline 		"only got 1 scenario and its only 16 turns long" is really simplifiying too much, theres much more to it than that isnt there? If you were to tell everyone what you said above then yes, they would probably think its bad value for money but seeing as there are AO's and Mystery Vairants which makes this one, sixteen turn scenario's replayability both vs the AI and PBEM very high. I do think 1 scenario isnt enough though but what comes with the game has many hours of playability IMO. I also think paying full price for a game then having to pay for an extra scenario is too much. Id like developers/publishers to move away from that just the same as you. Prehaps a good incentive to buy this game would have been the 1st ATD scenario for free, then each subsequent scenario you would have to pay for.

Really this engine is fantastic and the AO's and MV are something that (as far as im aware?) has been seriously lacking from any hex based/turn based game. Taking away the gamey factor of knowing exactly what your opponents objectives are and his opening moves make this 1 scenario hugely replayable and much more fun. One of my big gripes with the DB games was that playing against PBEM veterans was a chore as they knoew exactly what to do from turn 1 to win the battle. If you purchased this game and only played through it once on the historical (which does take a fair few hours even at 16 turns) then you are missing out on the new features and so have not fully explored the game. Oh and the AI kicks ass which seems to be sorely missing from alot of matrix titles.

PBEM is not for everyone but how many more hours does PBEM add to even 1 scenario with 16 turns adding into account MV's, playing as both sides?

As you can see i have conflicting views on this game. I think the game is fantastic, im unsure about the price. Im glad i purchased it though.

How many hours of gaming is worth £30? Is comparing it to the length of other games the only way to judge it?


_____________________________

"In times of peace, a good general is preparing for war" - Gaius Julius Ceasar

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 31
RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/16/2008 4:55:53 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		Well if Matrix drop the physical copy by a tenner, I'll buy it. Don't worry Matrix...that wasn't a "public" challenge...I know you have figures to meet and expectations...I guess I'll wait until the Christmas sale and see if it's there.

After Kharkov (I think that was their first game sold here at least), I'm not risking it.

Although I am (as I have alluded to in the past) very impressed by the mystery variants and Areas of Operation....but without the game, or a demo, I am completely in the dar as to how those work...and I'm not paying £40 to try it.

(in reply to Howard7x)
Post #: 32
RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/16/2008 5:25:12 PM   
Howard7x


Posts: 213
Joined: 8/19/2006
From: Derby, England
Status: offline 		I agree, a demo would be beneficial. Prehaps the 1st turn? You would see how the AO's work. Still, i dont know how they would be able to demonstrate the MV's with a demo and for me, that along with the AO's really are the biggest new features to the engine.

SSG have never done a demo for any of their games, this is prehaps to do with the complexity of the game and the lack of a tutorial that works without reading a manual. They would need to give you a full copy of the manual with the demo just so you could pick up the basics!

Ive always hoped that SSG would implement a tutorial that works in game, like Hearts of Iron or AGEOD's for example or even videos like the excellent Stardock Galactic Civ 2 tutorials, but i suppose that goes for alot of games here at Matrix. Come to think of it, some tutorial videos would really help show the players how the AO's and MV's work and highlight how replayable the scenario is. I remember my first foray into the DB engine to be very complex due to the manual tutorial, i almost gave up myself and shelved the game after lesson 2. Manual tutorials definately put alot of players off, but thats a different subject...




_____________________________

"In times of peace, a good general is preparing for war" - Gaius Julius Ceasar

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 33
RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/16/2008 6:31:59 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		Ok...well I'll tell you how I see this game at present.

I hear of Mystery Variants and Areas of Operation and I think "Oooooh...that sounds nice". I understand that Areas of Operation tie units to a particular tactical area, so I can go and launch all my units at one objective at a time.

So far, cool.

What of these Mystery Variants? They really are a mystery. Do they "alter" the AOs? Do they introduce more units? Do they free up some units from some AOs? Do they Move units from one AO to another?

Also, regarding MVs...are they random? Further, are they TRULY random? By that I mean if you switch on Mystery Variants, is the one assigned to the German AI/PBEM player depending on which one is assigned to the Soviet player? If this is the case, then I presume it's for balance purposes...

(in reply to Howard7x)
Post #: 34
RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/17/2008 1:21:13 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		Before you begin a game you go to the set up menu.

To choose from, the Germans have an historical Area of Operations (“AOs”) and 10 other AO’s to choose form

To choose from, the Russians have an historical AO and 10 other AO’s to choose from.

This means there are 11 x 11 or 121 versions of the scenario.

If you choose Mystery AOs’ the computer will choose at random one of the 11 AO’s for each side.

If for example you got AO 4, you will never know unless you have memorised all the AO’s

If for example you’re opponent got AO 7, you will never know that. If you had memorised the AO for each corps and division on the map, then as the game draws to a close, it might twig that you’re opponent was using AO7. But of you were that good you should be playing chess against Deep Blue!

Of course the final option is to use no AO’s and play the game in a traditional wargaming manner. This means of course there are 12 x 12 or 124 versions of the game.

This is the best AI in wargaming.

-

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 35
RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/17/2008 1:53:29 AM   
e_barkmann


Posts: 1307
Joined: 4/18/2000
From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline 		The MV's are great once you've played the game a few times with historical AO's.

The MV option can be set per side, so for a challenge, for instance, you could assign yourself historical AO's, and assign an MV to the AI.

The enemy's MV is never revealed to you except by observed enemy actions, but if you assign yourself a MV at the start of the game, once you have started, the mystery variant assigned to you by the game is described via the new 'i' button.

The variants take on the form of generally positive improvements to the historical AO's, such as earlier activation of AO's and broadening of AO areas for particular HQ's. 

As an example, one of the MV's allows the German's southern attack to start a couple of turns earlier than the historical version. 
Another is the Soviets being given a broader AO to capture objectives further north of Kharkov. 

Having seen this kind of surprise in action, I guarantee words similar to 'what the...' will be uttered

At setup the computer will select each sides MV's randomly - they are not dependent on what each side is given. 

For PBEM's I'd suggest both players be given MV's, and then try both sides with MV's and Unknown Units for even more unpredictability.

cheers Chris


_____________________________

Scourge of War multiplayer group

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/sowwaterloo

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 36
RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/18/2008 12:05:18 AM   
Gregor_SSG


Posts: 681
Joined: 3/6/2003
Status: offline 		The Mystery Variants are designed for PBEM games as much as they are for single player. Their existence acts as a real deterrence to gamey tactics based on knowledge gained through repeated playing of the game and encourages people to play the game based on the merits of the situation that they see in front of them.

For example, one MV allows the Soviet Player to conduct an offensive on Belgorod. The very existence of this variant discourages the German player from completely stripping Belgorod of defenders to help further south. If the Soviet player then starts clearing forts and positions some units in the area, then the German player won't necessarily know if this is just a demonstration or the real thing, and will have to make sensible provisions, just like his real life counterpart would have done.

While your opponent's MV will sometimes become apparent over the course of the game, the maximum uncertainty will be on those crucial early turns, exactly where it is needed.

Gregor

_____________________________

Vice President, Strategic Studies Group
See http://www.ssg.com.au and http://www.ssg.com.au/forums/
for info and free scenarios.

(in reply to e_barkmann)
Post #: 37
RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/18/2008 8:25:06 AM   
laska2k8


Posts: 556
Joined: 11/18/2005
From: Italy
Status: offline
quote:

SSG have never done a demo for any of their games


wrong, the "Battle in Normandy" demo (with TAO scenario in it) lead me to buy Normandy/Italy/Battlefront games.
A demo give me the opportunity to deeply try the engine before buying it.

(in reply to Howard7x)
Post #: 38
RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/18/2008 5:02:40 PM   
Howard7x


Posts: 213
Joined: 8/19/2006
From: Derby, England
Status: offline 		Yeah i forgot about that, i stand corrected. BIN is a good entry point to SSG's titles and personally my favourite SSG scenario to date. Id love to see it done with new artillery rules.

_____________________________

"In times of peace, a good general is preparing for war" - Gaius Julius Ceasar

(in reply to laska2k8)
Post #: 39
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Kharkov: Disaster on the Donets >> RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

2.625