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Missing pilots? - 9/26/2008 3:51:08 PM   
pionkki

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 8/7/2006
From: Finland
Status: offline 		It's January 1944 in my CHS PBEM. My squadrons lost hundreds of pilots all over the map in one night. Just buff... Is anyone aware what happened?








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RE: Missing pilots? - 9/26/2008 3:52:04 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Well known bug.

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RE: Missing pilots? - 9/26/2008 3:55:51 PM   
pionkki

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 8/7/2006
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Ok - thanks T. Any workarounds? Such as a redo?

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Post #: 3
RE: Missing pilots? - 9/26/2008 4:16:21 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		I am expecting this to hit in my 2/44 game any day. I would love to hear the response, but I think it's been covered:

Nothing you can do. There are limited pilot slots, and the two of you hit the limit. When new units come in, old pilots have to disappear to provide slots for the new ones.

There is no workaround. You can start getting more pilots killed in battle instead, that will help delay the problem.

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Post #: 4
RE: Missing pilots? - 9/26/2008 4:34:12 PM   
NormS3


Posts: 521
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Wild and Wonderful WV, just don't drink the water
Status: offline 		Is this because too many pilots are in the pools and currently in units, or is it the total number of pilots used throughout the game?

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Post #: 5
RE: Missing pilots? - 9/26/2008 4:41:32 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		There are too many pilots ON THE MAP. The ones in the pools don't count. Though, as you pull them out of the pools, they have to displace a pilot somewhere on the MAP.

I think the total limit is 10K pilots on the map.

The bug favors the Allies, because while the Allies probably have trained pilots in the pool to replace the ones that disappeared, the Japanese likely do not. They can only replace with Rookies.

AE is supposed to fix this.

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RE: Missing pilots? - 9/26/2008 4:46:31 PM   
NormS3


Posts: 521
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Wild and Wonderful WV, just don't drink the water
Status: offline 		thanks,
i had thought that the number was 20k though. I guess i was also thinking that it was total number, so i missed something somewhere.

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Post #: 7
RE: Missing pilots? - 9/26/2008 5:39:36 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline
quote:

The bug favors the Allies...


(nothing personal, I just love the opportunities to post this one...)








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RE: Missing pilots? - 9/26/2008 6:22:53 PM   
RevRick


Posts: 2617
Joined: 9/16/2000
From: Thomasville, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pionkki

It's January 1944 in my CHS PBEM. My squadrons lost hundreds of pilots all over the map in one night. Just buff... Is anyone aware what happened?









That's easy to explain! Haven't you ever heard of repple-depple?
The Fairy Godmother of the replacements just waved her magic wand, and your vets just got grabbed and a bunch of newbies are ready to be indoctrinated! They're YOURS!!!!

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Post #: 9
RE: Missing pilots? - 9/26/2008 6:33:56 PM   
Cuttlefish

 

Posts: 2454
Joined: 1/24/2007
From: Oregon, USA
Status: offline 		Having experienced this myself I am morbidly convinced that it is the game's way of punishing Japanese players for doing well. And yes, since AE has a greatly expanded pilot data base this problem should be a thing of the past once it is released.

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Post #: 10
RE: Missing pilots? - 9/26/2008 6:37:39 PM   
Cathartes

 

Posts: 2155
Joined: 1/5/2001
Status: offline 		Can (1) disbanding units, or (2) setting up a pre-arranged slaughter area between players alleviate the problem?  It's an immersion killer but can it work?

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Post #: 11
RE: Missing pilots? - 9/26/2008 6:49:19 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline 		Heck, I'm counting on this bug to save my Allied ass in my game vs. Mynok! 

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Post #: 12
RE: Missing pilots? - 9/26/2008 7:55:50 PM   
jumper

 

Posts: 489
Joined: 2/23/2006
Status: offline 		It puzzles me, that such serious bug is not being solved.. It seems like everyone is accepting it as a part of the game, but it seems like game killer to me. It si PITA for allies, but it breaks the spin of IJAF. Or is the kind of a bug which simply can not be corrected by some patch?


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Post #: 13
RE: Missing pilots? - 9/26/2008 8:05:12 PM   
Yakface


Posts: 846
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jumper

It puzzles me, that such serious bug is not being solved.. It seems like everyone is accepting it as a part of the game, but it seems like game killer to me. It si PITA for allies, but it breaks the spin of IJAF. Or is the kind of a bug which simply can not be corrected by some patch?



As the original posters Japanese opponent, I think Jumper has a good point. Lets riot.




< Message edited by Yakface -- 9/26/2008 8:06:29 PM >

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Post #: 14
RE: Missing pilots? - 9/26/2008 9:01:10 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		The actual problem is that there is a finite size the database. 

There are only 19,999 pilot slots.

They did put something in a while ago that would purge most -dead- pilots (yes they used to take up slots as well).  But if you get to having 20k pilots in play at once (plus some of the "dead pilots who just won't die" - like the aces), you're SOL.

But there isn't a "fix" per se.

"Just expand the database".
That's king of like stacking another chest-of-drawers on top of the old one.  It's a big enough issue by itself, that even once you do that,

Oops.  you're two year-old can't reach the upper drawers anyway.  As in, even if you did expand the DB to 40k or whatever, the current program can't even "see" the extra 20k spots that you added without without further changes.

Yes, it sucks, and as a developer myself, it kinda makes me groan.  But one can play "couldda-shouldda-wouldda-mighta-didn't" all day (actually it's gone on many times before on these forums).  But when it all boils down, it's just a matter that it never occured to anyone that the game would generate so many pilots; and that's just the way it is.

-F- 

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RE: Missing pilots? - 9/26/2008 9:04:18 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Question: Has anyone implemented a House Rule to essentially "Allocate" slots to stay out of trouble? I play Japan, and I could just limit the number of pilots to a certain level, by counting the total number of planes and managing to that.

Anyone have any ideas?

And, can someone confirm that 10,000 is the total number of pilot slots available?

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Post #: 16
RE: Missing pilots? - 9/26/2008 9:05:22 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		It's 20k.  You can look in the DB-editor.

-F-






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< Message edited by Feinder -- 9/26/2008 9:07:12 PM >

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RE: Missing pilots? - 9/26/2008 9:19:49 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Thanks Fiender! Then it should be fairly easy to determine when the danger zone starts; when the total number of A/C in play reaches close to 20K (I understand that named pilots that are KIA or WIA also count toward the total, but may not be on the map)

What would be a fair allocation if we are trying to limit that then, any ideas anyone?

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Post #: 18
RE: Missing pilots? - 9/26/2008 9:31:11 PM   
Yakface


Posts: 846
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Just to get this clear:

A) do pilots in the reserve pools matter, or just what is on map + the few WIA, MIA and KIA?
B) do dead pilots (other than noted above) have any effect or do they just vacate the database?
C) Is it correct to say that once the on map pikots of both sides reach 20,000 any further that are drawn from the pools eliminate a similar number of existing pilots.

Thanks guys

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Post #: 19
RE: Missing pilots? - 9/26/2008 9:43:20 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		As I understand it..

A) do pilots in the reserve pools matter, or just what is on map + the few WIA, MIA and KIA?

"Most" reserve pilots do not matter.  There are specific "reinforcement" pilots that come in, that are added to the pools once their availability date is hit.  But the "generic" pool pilots only matter once they are actually drawn.  So you need to worry about (who is on the map + few WIA/KIA/MIA + reinforcment pilots).


B) do dead pilots (other than noted above) have any effect or do they just vacate the database?

KIA/MIA pilots that are not aces are -supposed- to be purged from the DB each turn, to free up those slots.  That was fix they put in a while back.  There has been some discussion however as to how "completely" they are purged however.  I have to believe that they put something something in that says "run thru the DB, and if a pilot is KIA or MIA and less than 5 kills, free the slot", and it worked : that shouldn't be that hard.


C) Is it correct to say that once the on map pikots of both sides reach 20,000 any further that are drawn from the pools eliminate a similar number of existing pilots.

Those 20k pilots are both sides to share.  So you could get 12k Japanese pilots, and 8k Allied pilots (or whatever). 
"and any further are drawn from the pols eliminate existing pilots"
I *think* so. 

-F-

< Message edited by Feinder -- 9/26/2008 9:45:23 PM >

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RE: Missing pilots? - 9/26/2008 10:02:44 PM   
jumper

 

Posts: 489
Joined: 2/23/2006
Status: offline 		Nice explanation. Thanks Feinder.

But it opens another question (what a suprise..):

If it is problem of limited database and we have to live with the fact, that some pilots will disappaer (or maybe it is better to call it "rotation" because they leave to make a space for newbies), then would it be possible to choose which pilots will be kicked out? I mean something like that it will affect the pilots with the lowest xp at first or pilots in search/recon groups etc..

If it can not be corrected maybe it might be controled..?

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RE: Missing pilots? - 9/26/2008 10:03:22 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Good responses. So I wonder what is a fair split of that 20K Pilots?

Assuming we need to reserve 1K for cusions and KIA/WIAs......How many could each side have?

Is it fair to split down the middle, 9.5K apiece?
Should the Allies get more?
Or the Japanese?

My gut tells me the Allies should get 60%, maybe 40% Japs?

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Post #: 22
RE: Missing pilots? - 9/26/2008 10:34:36 PM   
Cathartes

 

Posts: 2155
Joined: 1/5/2001
Status: offline 		So what if you and your PBEM opponent set up a killing field and disbanded a bunch of spare transports and/or other non-essential aircraft into their kind and then based them where they could continually transport/fly into enemy CAP in these pre-arranged areas?  These planes have pilots with no kills and could become meet for the grinder, freeing up slots before they become restrictive. It's wacky I know, but could it potentially work?

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Post #: 23
RE: Missing pilots? - 9/26/2008 11:43:55 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		A good place to start if somebody is really bored out of their mind, would be to ask, "How many pilots are needed to fill out all the squadrons for both sides in 1945?"  

For starters, if that number is greater than 20k, then you'd need to perma-disband enough squadrons to bring you under the 20k.

Then to account for when squadrons "grow" (they often gather about 10 - 15% extra pilots due to quirkiness during transfers).  You'd have to reduce the active numbers by that much again.

You'd also need a HR against "over-loading" your squadrons (there are ways to stack plenty of extra pilots into squadrons, and then via training regimen, have a 24 AC squadron with 60+ high exp pilots).  I won't get into the details however, because some would consider it an exploit.

-F-

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Post #: 24
RE: Missing pilots? - 9/27/2008 7:26:05 AM   
pionkki

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 8/7/2006
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cathartes

So what if you and your PBEM opponent set up a killing field and disbanded a bunch of spare transports and/or other non-essential aircraft into their kind and then based them where they could continually transport/fly into enemy CAP in these pre-arranged areas? These planes have pilots with no kills and could become meet for the grinder, freeing up slots before they become restrictive. It's wacky I know, but could it potentially work?


I guess that's not going to work. That's because my Japanese opponent has roughly 7500 pilots on the map. I have roughly 13300 planes on the map. Some of the squadrons has more pilots than planes, so the total number of pilots is more than 20000. The killing field would require blood of hundreds of pilots in a month just because of the new replacement squadrons.

< Message edited by pionkki -- 9/27/2008 7:35:50 AM >

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Post #: 25
RE: Missing pilots? - 9/27/2008 9:11:49 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		Solution:






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Post #: 26
RE: Missing pilots? - 9/27/2008 9:48:44 AM   
Tupolev

 

Posts: 48
Joined: 1/8/2008
Status: offline 		As I understand it, the pilot drain issue only pops up if the total number of on-map pilots exceeds 20,000.

Let's say the total hits 20,200. After the excess 200 'vanish', the problem will stop right? Also, are the pilots that vanish are randomly picked? So it's not based on the highest xp pilots disappear first... ?

To those PBEM players who've already encountered this problem, what do you guys do for a workaround? And do you just continue to train your raw pilots as before?

Thanks!!



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Post #: 27
RE: Missing pilots? - 9/27/2008 11:21:53 AM   
jumper

 

Posts: 489
Joined: 2/23/2006
Status: offline 		I have just counted the number of planes Japan can have in the game and I got the number 10500. I suppose allies get even more (roughly 16000). In total the long campaign gives both players 26500 planes, which requires at least the same amount of pilots, while it can support only 20k..? Well, from my point of view it could never work properly.

I know such whinning will not bring me anything good, but in my game I´m quickly approaching the 20k limit and I´m already feeling desperate with a knowlege that after 2 years of playing the game will be scr*wed, because someone didn´t checked if the number of availible pilots match the number of availible planes and now it is too late to do anything about that.. It simply drives me crazy..




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Post #: 28
RE: Missing pilots? - 9/27/2008 12:59:17 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline
quote:

I have just counted the number of planes Japan can have in the game and I got the number 10500. I suppose allies get even more (roughly 16000). In total the long campaign gives both players 26500 planes, which requires at least the same amount of pilots, while it can support only 20k..? Well, from my point of view it could never work properly.


And therin lies the flaw in the plan...

-F-

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Post #: 29
RE: Missing pilots? - 9/27/2008 1:15:37 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		I know in the old BTR, the pilot data base was 20,000 names, once that point was reached, the program started to overwrite dead pilots (KIA/MIA/POW)

the data base now is 50,000, but it still will overwrite the dead if needed

since BoB/BTR were the granddaddies to WitP, you would think it still had some of the same "data" systems and processes, maybe in the cross over some of it got changed, forgotten




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