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RE: Thinking of buying - 10/3/2008 7:03:38 PM   
Kipper


Posts: 272
Joined: 3/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

It's impossible today to get an AI to execute a planned string of attacks and counter-attacks in succesful support of a strategic goal.


No it'a not - chess programs can do this and have been beating the best humans for over 10 years now. I have written one of these myself. But I don't expect a small developer to produce an articifal intelligence that can beat bright humans in a much less defined problem space such as a wargame.

If an AI can simulate some kind of historical experience without really crazy stuff, I am happy enough (can't play regularly enough for PBEM alas). Some house rules to help it along the way are OK for me. Lots of suspension of disbelief. Let it cheat a bit if it has to. The essense of wargaming is *role-playing* a commander, after all.

Basically a simulated role-playing experience as opposed to playing a simulated human!

There's nothing wrong with your expectations Adam - it's just that they're not well matched to the realities of PC wargaming.

(in reply to Adam Parker)
Post #: 31
RE: Thinking of buying - 10/3/2008 7:22:48 PM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline
quote:


@ Iain - are you sure? I can tell you that there doesn't seem to be enough revenue in the PC war game market as it is. But Vassal, Sun Tzu (spelling?) and Cyberbox renditions of boardgames thrive.


Yep, that is why we can make a living publishing / developing games I guess. You don't get rich publishing wargames, not even the paper guys, but you can make a living of it. So there seem to be revenue ;).

I work in both branches, digital and paper games.

You know two years ago everybody was whining that boardgames die out, the genre is at an end and nobody buys them anymore. These days boardgames or sold very well again, which is great. There will be years when they not sell so well anymore. It is the same with PC Games, it is an up and down, up and down. It is the same with every industry.


quote:


How do you mean that I don't like the industry? I write because I beg for an industry!


You sound like Waldemar Hartmann to me, a german soccer commentary. He "just trash talks" and insists to not play!

quote:


You know, the one that guarantees your games to do absolutely nothing. Let consumers then return their games for refunds if they do not perform as advertised, as for any other consumer durable out of the box. Stand by your games and not behind this clause.


The last I heard you can't do that with boardgames either. Do you want to see a picture of all the boardgames I have that advertise "solitaire" play and you can't actually do it properly. Properly at least for my (to stay with the personal preferences here) very taste. Maybe I should contact GMT and whatnot and ask them for refunds because I can't play their games alone (with my preferences).

All our games perform as advertised. There is not one piece of bug free software on this world, maybe except for Pong, but even that was crashing once in a while on my ATARI console. Not even boardgames are "bug" free, hence the gazillion of house rules and errata and rule addons.


< Message edited by Marc von Martial -- 10/3/2008 7:28:56 PM >

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(in reply to Adam Parker)
Post #: 32
RE: Thinking of buying - 10/3/2008 9:22:06 PM   
Johnus

 

Posts: 615
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline 		Adam Parker:

You are a funny guy. I think I would enjoy meeting you and discussing wargaming in general. But I don't plan on getting to Melbourne anytime in the near future (or this lifetime for that matter).

I'm curious about Command & Colors, Ancients. You say it is great for solitaire. But, my brief perusal of the rules indicates, hidden paying cards, units facing one player (hidden from the other) etc.

Do you just ignore these aspects when you play solitaire ??

< Message edited by Johnnie -- 10/3/2008 9:24:18 PM >

(in reply to Adam Parker)
Post #: 33
RE: Thinking of buying - 10/3/2008 9:44:07 PM   
hazxan

 

Posts: 69
Joined: 11/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
In the case of board wargames, you can house rule it or wait for a rules update if the designer is still active...


I've often thought that this is a key difference between boardgames and computer games. I have played many boardgames where we agree on a 'house rules'. Sometimes rule changes to fix something missing in the original rules. Sometimes to speed up the game for this session. Worse case is where the original rules just seen unplayable.

My main point is that with a boardgame, you don't have to be the original developer to change the rules. You can remove cards, close of part of the board etc very easily. Not so with computer games. If it's unplayable out of the box, you are dependant on the developer to patch it, you can't do it yourself.

Fair enough, developers are increasingly leaving more hooks in for modders. But it still amazes me that there are so many computer strategy games where a simple rule that is not to everyones taste is hard coded and unchangeable. Go onto any strategy game forum here, at Paradox, AGEOD, or anywhere and you'll see what I mean! I just wish that even more rules options were made available to the game player.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 34
RE: Thinking of buying - 10/3/2008 9:52:48 PM   
hazxan

 

Posts: 69
Joined: 11/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

quote:

Give up on AI's, add the things that board gamers have demanded for eons - solitaire playability, easy multiplay, DYO, easy to glance maps, pre-scenario force placement, replayability - and you'll start making money.


I disagree with this since your majority of computer gamers are solo players. Eliminate the AI and you'll lose that market just to gain another.


Very true. One day I may try playing a strategy game online or PBEM. I'm not morally opposed, I just don't get the time! I feel I would let down the other player when real life gets in the way. For me, gaming time is 'stolen moments', hard to plan when I'll get them.

As for the argument about whether to bother including an AI for solo play, why don't developers separate the game rules engine from the AI engine and sell them seperately? As it's good design, I'd like to think the rules are separate from the AI anyway From here, it's one step to releasing the basic game interface and rules for multiplayer with no AI (obviously at lower cost than a full game with AI). Then release an AI opponent at an extra cost. Maybe even release a development kit to allow the gamer to modify or build their own AI.


(in reply to killroyishere)
Post #: 35
RE: Thinking of buying - 10/4/2008 3:22:02 AM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline 		@ Johnnie - I am actually a pretty laid back guy  but one who has had chats re our hobby with some of the best - gamers and game makers. I love talking wargaming. Re Commands and Colors: Ancients, search my name or Command and Colors here and you'll find a glowing post or series of posts explaining in full how cleverly designed imo this game is re solitarie suitablity - sans modification. Check the Wargamer and the Consimworld game thread too.

@ Marc S - Keep at it buddy! May many, many more people be able to make a living out of our hobby. Amen. As for soccer, last game a played a guy fell over near the ball and I accientally tried to cross his head to the right wing. Oooh!  He survived

@ Kipper - Of course, Chess AI's are very robust but; 1) they operate across 64 squares, 2) they face no terrain etc... There is marked difference between a Chess AI and one tasked with conquering Europe as Napoleon - but Kip you'd know, this is a very famous and old debate.

I think the summary of all my posts is this: If you're happy playing against an AI that won't attack or utilize its forces correctly, great! I think it reeks of a hobby genre in stagnation. I firmly believe it's one that needs many loud voices to wake the developers up. If it ain't broke don't fix it, if it's broke get it fixed. It's our money.

Finally, @ Marc S

quote:

The last I heard you can't do that with boardgames either.


Actually you're wrong. No waranty clauses at all. You're fully protected by consumer law.


(in reply to hazxan)
Post #: 36
RE: Thinking of buying - 10/4/2008 3:30:08 AM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: petdoc

I think its a huge market if you could get more 'boardgame like' PC wargames. My dream would be Breakout Normandy PC game strict conversion Oooh, gotta like that.


Best Normandy game ever made!

You know, how many decades did it take for Avalon Hill to relent in putting solitaire ratings on their games?

Maybe it just needs another half a decade or so more, for PC wargame makers to relent and start putting some solitaire into their games?

(in reply to petdoc)
Post #: 37
RE: Thinking of buying - 10/4/2008 12:04:39 PM   
killroyishere

 

Posts: 639
Joined: 4/23/2008
Status: offline 		While I agree mostly with you Adam you can already play PC wargames solitaire against yourself. I've played many games of Combat Mission and SPWAW against myself just like a board game. Of course I see all the units and know where they are, but, that's the way we played board war games for years. What has happened in the computer age is most everybody wants this Fog of War type play and a smart AI. We get the one and don't get the other. Now talking about making pure wargames on the computer we'd also need to go back to the open map play like the first Avalon Hill type games. The games were made without FOW type play. They were balanced for no FOW type play. That's one of the major issues with playing most of these solo type pc games today they are all made to play with a FOW. So, yeah let's get back to basics and programmers make games that are made for you to see the entire map and all the pieces even with AI's as part of the program. At least that or be allowed to turn FOW on or off when you play them and the game be designed to be play without FOW as well. Also, make more beer and pretzels type war games.
Developers forgot these are suppose to be games of challenge not real life and too many games are patterned trying to be like the real thing. I get so tired of gotta be historically accurate and gotta have FOW and gotta have leaders with this and this and this oh and gotta have diplomacy. Whatever happened to just a good old fashioned Tactics II type game? I applaud the developer who made Advanced Tactics a game that can have some realism and still be a game. Yet, I still read some complain about they couldn't get into it because either the units weren't realistic or the game didn't play historically accurate, etc. etc..
So developers need to get back to making games not mmorpg type war games.
I haven't seen a single game either main stream or war game this year I couldn't live without. That's pretty sad when you reach a point when computer gaming has nothing or almost nothing to offer you anymore. I did get Battlefront's Shock Force, but, I haven't even opened it yet because of all the bad publicity and reviews it got. I tried Kharkov by Koios and after only a couple of plays through it I was bored with it. The maps are too small for one thing. I've been going back and buying games like Knights of the Old Republic and Star Wars Battlefront I & II and Majesty and just a bunch of old bargain bin stuff cause there's nothing new worth buying.
There was a time when Slitherine was at the top of my list as a game developer because their ancients series is so great. But, they went off into WW2 (gah do we need anymore WW2 games?) and now Napoleonics (gah do we need anymore Napoleonic games?) It's kind of funny because just like the rts genre where everyone was running to make an rts game I see the same things with war game designers. They are all running off to make their own version of WW2, Napoleonics and the American Independence and Civil War games. Reruns Reruns Reruns. If it were a M.A.S.H. type game/rerun I'd probably buy it that's the only rerun tv series I still like to watch. Wonder why no one ever made a M.A.S.H. type mmorpg?
Oh well just my 2cents I know nothing will come of it cause it hasn't before. My moneys still in my pocket until someone finally gets the idea that war games don't have to be monster games or have every bit of realism they can put into them.

(in reply to Adam Parker)
Post #: 38
RE: Thinking of buying - 10/4/2008 12:43:38 PM   
GShock


Posts: 1245
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: San Francisco, CA - USA
Status: offline 		Marc couldn't have said it better.

It's all a matter of patience...besides perfection doesn't exist anywhere, not just in boardgames/pc games.


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Post #: 39
RE: Thinking of buying - 10/4/2008 12:56:08 PM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

quote:

The last I heard you can't do that with boardgames either.


Actually you're wrong. No waranty clauses at all. You're fully protected by consumer law.



But you can not return a purchased game when it is not to your liking. Just because you think one rule should be different. Or you don't like the concept and replayability, or whatever els is not up to your personal taste.


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Post #: 40
RE: Thinking of buying - 10/4/2008 1:42:46 PM   
Kipper


Posts: 272
Joined: 3/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

@ Kipper - Of course, Chess AI's are very robust but; 1) they operate across 64 squares, 2) they face no terrain etc... There is marked difference between a Chess AI and one tasked with conquering Europe as Napoleon - but Kip you'd know, this is a very famous and old debate.


Yes, but the point is that one developer will not on his own reproduce that [chess playing] kind of intelligence in wargames and I think you expect to play a simulated human oppponent as opposed to having a simulated battles/role-playing session and I think that is why you are continually disappointed.

< Message edited by Kipper -- 10/4/2008 1:55:25 PM >

(in reply to Adam Parker)
Post #: 41
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