CP naval strategy against AI

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CP naval strategy against AI - 10/2/2008 9:50:03 AM

vinnie71

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What is the best CP naval strategy against the TE? I normally try to sally out with both the AH and German fleets on the first turn in order to inflict as much damage as possible. I also buy 2 subs and send the German PD to patrol the Baltic to protect the merchantmen. I keep sending the subs out but without much success to say the truth. Most of the war is spent in the harbour for the German fleet and very often I find that I dedicate the few precious resources to the land campaign and let the navy wither on the vine. Actually the repeated sallies of the AH navy seem to be more profitable, because both the Germans and the Turks seem to be relatively speaking bottled up.

So has anyone ever managed to break the British stranglehold on the Atlantic sea lanes? How is it possible? Does anyone ever send out German merchantmen out in the Atlantic?

Post #: 1

RE: CP naval strategy against AI - 10/2/2008 4:41:14 PM

EdinHouston

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Joined: 7/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

What is the best CP naval strategy against the TE? I normally try to sally out with both the AH and German fleets on the first turn in order to inflict as much damage as possible. I also buy 2 subs and send the German PD to patrol the Baltic to protect the merchantmen. I keep sending the subs out but without much success to say the truth. Most of the war is spent in the harbour for the German fleet and very often I find that I dedicate the few precious resources to the land campaign and let the navy wither on the vine. Actually the repeated sallies of the AH navy seem to be more profitable, because both the Germans and the Turks seem to be relatively speaking bottled up.

So has anyone ever managed to break the British stranglehold on the Atlantic sea lanes? How is it possible? Does anyone ever send out German merchantmen out in the Atlantic?

I'll try to answer your questions even though I am far from an expert on naval strategy.

My first thought is that your naval strategy needs to complement your overall strategy as the CP. For example, if you are going for a knock-out of France, there are a few times when it is very valuable to deny control of the North Sea and/or North Atlantic to the TE so they cant transfer troops from Britain with amphibious moves. In Aug 1914, you might want to prevent those British corps from reaching Dunkirk or Antwerp, and force them to wait 2 months or land in Brest (where the TE will be terribly short of rail points in Sept/Oct). In Mar/Apr and in May/June 1915, there are a lot of British corps that will need to be amphibiously transferred to France. It might be worth losing much of the German navy in return for blocking those amphibious moves.

Another strategy is to save the German navy for a big break-out into the North Atlantic, praying that you can avoid detection by the British navy in the North Sea. If you take a few transports with you (you will probably want to build extra transports for this), you can get enough food in a couple turns to ensure that the CP will never starve. But if the Brits intercept you, or if they manage to keep control of the North Atlantic (thereby denying those transports any trade), it might all be for naught.

In my opinion, its virtually impossible to starve Britain with Uboats, especially now that France can send extra food to Britain. Based on what i read on the forums earlier this spring and summer (before I had even bought the game), it seemed like CP players were focusing on a North Atlantic/transport strategy, not a Uboat strategy. But I imagine some players still build Uboats (I know I have), because even if you cant starve Britain, you CAN use the UBoats to attack transports that are trying to amphibiously move troops, especially when Britain is trying to move troops from England to Italy or the Balkans or the middle east. Also the Uboats can attack transports that are trying to supply British troops that have invaded an enemy port. If used in tandem with the AH or Turkish navies, the Uboats in the med can be even more successful.

One strategy that probably wont work as the CP is to try to defeat the British navy and rule the waves. It really seems to require a lot of luck to do this. Certainly its possible, especially if the first battle is very favourable to the Germans. But the British outnumber the Germans so much, its pretty unlikely that will happen often. But if the Germans win that first battle, it can really facilitate a break-out to the North Atlantic later. The bottom line IMO is that the CP navies need to be used in niche strategies that complement your overall strategy, and not simply send out to battle the TE and in hopes of crushing them and ruling the waves.

(in reply to vinnie71)

Post #: 2

RE: CP naval strategy against AI - 10/2/2008 8:17:32 PM

hjaco

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Joined: 3/23/2007
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The post asks for a strategy against the AI but I figure you should play as you would against a human player whice these advices also cover.

I used to patrol the North Sea in turn one in a France first, to prevent the Entente to reinforce Belgium from that sea zone. But I have stopped doing that because the few British corps may be individual strong but quick disposed off and more importantly no sane Entente player would patrol the North Sea in force and usa amphibious moement on turn 1.

If you plan on going through Netherlands to outflank Liege you could patrol the North Sea in order to directly invade in Belgium and/or France as far as Cherbourg. This really puts pressure on France.

The above examples just underlines what EdinHouston correctly states that your naval strategy must support your overall strategy which usually is dictated by land strategy.

Forget about starving Britain to death. When US enters they can freely send 20 food a turn across the Atlantic rendering the need for convoys obsolete.

An alternate strategy is to build 3 or 4 transports at setup and time for winter (more difficult interception) to send everything to the atlantic for shipping purposes.

As mentioned spring is a good time to block the huge amount of British reinforcements for either France or Italy. It is vital for your possible campaigns there to try buy a turn or two.

SUBS are best used in the mediterranean and if you plan on blocking enemy amphibious movement there it may well be worth buying some SUBS. Most entente DD will have to be deployed in the Atlantic together with heavy patrols in any case. Together with the Austrian and Ottoman fleets the build up against OE can be severely delayed.

Last I will mention a Russia first where you could buy some transports and invade the Baltic cities. Later giving supply and reinforce with the transports. I have a cunning variant of that but I am going to use that in a future game so I will keep that to myself for the time being

(in reply to EdinHouston)

Post #: 3

RE: CP naval strategy against AI - 10/2/2008 11:14:43 PM

Lascar

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Joined: 10/7/2000
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hjaco

Forget about starving Britain to death. When US enters they can freely send 20 food a turn across the Atlantic rendering the need for convoys obsolete.

SUBS are best used in the mediterranean and if you plan on blocking enemy amphibious movement there it may well be worth buying some SUBS. Most entente DD will have to be deployed in the Atlantic together with heavy patrols in any case. Together with the Austrian and Ottoman fleets the build up against OE can be severely delayed.

Those two strategies are valid in game terms but point out that the rules that allow those exploits are ahistorical. All food shipments to Britain must arrive by sea so a continued U-boat campaign would have an impact on those food shipments. Germany did not halt their U-boat campaign once American entered the war.

The ability for the TE to ship resources by sea to allies without having to use transports seems inconsistent with the need to have transports on shipping missions to allow resources to arrive during the Strategic phase i.e. Britian needs 7 transports on shipping mission in the North Atlantic.

The mass deployment of German U-boats in the Mediterranean would not be realistic in the actual war because of logistic reasons and also passing large numbers of them through the straits of Gibraltar would have been problematic at best.

It seems that Frank should consider some sort of modification to the rules to prevent these ahistorical exploits.

(in reply to hjaco)

Post #: 4

RE: CP naval strategy against AI - 10/3/2008 8:16:49 AM

vinnie71

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Thanks for the feedback

I actually never considered interdicting the BEF and simply used Kluck and Bulow to steamroll Belgium and Northern France. The strategies here would compliment my style perfectly because I rarely go for a Russia first knockout blow.

Actually I thought that the AH navy was sufficient in the Mediterranean, at least initially. Since both France and Britain deploy only PDs initially, the compact AH navy can deliver rather heavy blows initially and normally I manage to interrupt French trade in the first sally. Later the Eastern Mediterranean becomes a bit more problematic due to the overwhelming presence of combined British, French and Italian vessels.

So when is the German High Seas fleet at its strongest vis-s vis the Etente? Am I right in thinking that it is strongest at the begininng of 1915 (they receive a new DN squadron at this time right?).

BTW to deny Britain amphibous movement, is it enough to have the North Atlantic contested or do you have to sink the Transports?

(in reply to Lascar)

Post #: 5

RE: CP naval strategy against AI - 10/3/2008 12:08:24 PM

hjaco

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lascar

It seems that Frank should consider some sort of modification to the rules to prevent these ahistorical exploits.

Thats one way to see things. One could argue (which I do) that you should not be straight jacket too much into following a historical course and I think the chosen possibilities is intended.

Following this point of view the ability to patrol in the Atlantic with CP DN should not be allowed either. Nor Austria as well as most countries building large numbers of SUBS or the massive possibility for lending just to mention a few examples

(in reply to Lascar)

Post #: 6

RE: CP naval strategy against AI - 10/3/2008 12:11:08 PM

hjaco

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

So when is the German High Seas fleet at its strongest vis-s vis the Etente? Am I right in thinking that it is strongest at the begininng of 1915 (they receive a new DN squadron at this time right?).

BTW to deny Britain amphibous movement, is it enough to have the North Atlantic contested or do you have to sink the Transports?

And England gets 2 squadron of DN in 15'. So time only works against you.

Its enough to contest the Atlantic but sinking Transports surely helps in any case

(in reply to vinnie71)

Post #: 7

RE: CP naval strategy against AI - 10/3/2008 12:59:06 PM

hjaco

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But I will grant you that the lending from America system is "fishy" to say the least. Then again I never quite understood why you only have to pay fail movement for sending resources with rail but not shipping capacity for sending resources with ships

(in reply to hjaco)

Post #: 8

RE: CP naval strategy against AI - 10/3/2008 3:50:07 PM

Lascar

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Joined: 10/7/2000
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hjaco

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lascar

It seems that Frank should consider some sort of modification to the rules to prevent these ahistorical exploits.

Thats one way to see things. One could argue (which I do) that you should not be straight jacket too much into following a historical course and I think the chosen possibilities is intended.

Following this point of view the ability to patrol in the Atlantic with CP DN should not be allowed either. Nor Austria as well as most countries building large numbers of SUBS or the massive possibility for lending just to mention a few examples

Even if you don't care whether it is historical or not at least the rules should be logically consistent. Requiring transports to ship resources to a nation which can then be interdicted and yet allowing unrestricted transfer of resources between allied countries completely immune to interdiction is logically inconsistent. By what means do the transfer of resources between America and Britain take place. Is it by teleportation or magic? Is this an historical wargame or a fantasy/sci-fi game?

< Message edited by Lascar -- 10/3/2008 3:52:21 PM >

(in reply to hjaco)

Post #: 9

RE: CP naval strategy against AI - 10/3/2008 4:12:14 PM

vinnie71

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But do players actually build large numbers of subs? How do they manage coz I can barely keep the army going sometimes. The navy becomes an expensive burden sometimes, I have to admit. Which is why I started this thread...

Glad to know that a patroling German fleet can actually cripple amphibous movement in the North Atlantic. Now another question: do players send the whole German fleet in one area or do they split off the DN from the CA and have the former contest the North Sea and the latter raid in the North Atlantic? Never tried it myself though...

(in reply to Lascar)

Post #: 10

RE: CP naval strategy against AI - 10/3/2008 4:31:07 PM

hjaco

Posts: 872
Joined: 3/23/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lascar

quote:

ORIGINAL: hjaco

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lascar

It seems that Frank should consider some sort of modification to the rules to prevent these ahistorical exploits.

Thats one way to see things. One could argue (which I do) that you should not be straight jacket too much into following a historical course and I think the chosen possibilities is intended.

Following this point of view the ability to patrol in the Atlantic with CP DN should not be allowed either. Nor Austria as well as most countries building large numbers of SUBS or the massive possibility for lending just to mention a few examples

Even if you don't care whether it is historical or not at least the rules should be logically consistent. Requiring transports to ship resources to a nation which can then be interdicted and yet allowing unrestricted transfer of resources between allied countries completely immune to interdiction is logically inconsistent. By what means do the transfer of resources between America and Britain take place. Is it by teleportation or magic? Is this an historical wargame or a fantasy/sci-fi game?

quote:

10/3/2008 12:59:06 PM

Which is precisely what I stated was unrealistic in my post directly prior to your answer

(in reply to Lascar)

Post #: 11

RE: CP naval strategy against AI - 10/4/2008 12:30:34 AM

Lascar

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Joined: 10/7/2000
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hjaco

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lascar

quote:

ORIGINAL: hjaco

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lascar

It seems that Frank should consider some sort of modification to the rules to prevent these ahistorical exploits.

Thats one way to see things. One could argue (which I do) that you should not be straight jacket too much into following a historical course and I think the chosen possibilities is intended.

Following this point of view the ability to patrol in the Atlantic with CP DN should not be allowed either. Nor Austria as well as most countries building large numbers of SUBS or the massive possibility for lending just to mention a few examples

Even if you don't care whether it is historical or not at least the rules should be logically consistent. Requiring transports to ship resources to a nation which can then be interdicted and yet allowing unrestricted transfer of resources between allied countries completely immune to interdiction is logically inconsistent. By what means do the transfer of resources between America and Britain take place. Is it by teleportation or magic? Is this an historical wargame or a fantasy/sci-fi game?

quote:

10/3/2008 12:59:06 PM

Which is precisely what I stated was unrealistic in my post directly prior to your answer

Didn't see your second post when I posted my reply. Perhaps rail points expended for transatlantic resource transfers is due to the use of the transatlantic railroad.

But I suppose the thinking behind strategic movement points is that they are a combination of rail and ship which makes sense for the portion that occurs overland (trains, canals, roads etc.) but across the sea it would be exclusively by ship of course, which should be subject to the same interdiction effects as shipping using transport ships.

< Message edited by Lascar -- 10/4/2008 4:37:49 PM >

(in reply to hjaco)

Post #: 12

RE: CP naval strategy against AI - 10/4/2008 1:37:52 AM

ILCK

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Joined: 6/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

But do players actually build large numbers of subs? How do they manage coz I can barely keep the army going sometimes. The navy becomes an expensive burden sometimes, I have to admit. Which is why I started this thread...

Building anything seems a stretch given the low level of points for the CP's. I'm scraping every point I can to fight. Now on the TE side there's a different story.

(in reply to vinnie71)

Post #: 13

RE: CP naval strategy against AI - 10/4/2008 9:56:38 PM

Sewerlobster

Posts: 330
Joined: 5/7/2007
From: Reading, Pa. USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ILCK

quote:

ORIGINAL: Offworlder
But do players actually build large numbers of subs? How do they manage coz I can barely keep the army going sometimes. The navy becomes an expensive burden sometimes, I have to admit. Which is why I started this thread...

Building anything seems a stretch given the low level of points for the CP's. I'm scraping every point I can to fight. Now on the TE side there's a different story.

I don't know about large numbers -- but I tend to hoard them and sortie them in strings of small groups toward the middle of the game.

(in reply to ILCK)

Post #: 14

RE: CP naval strategy against AI - 10/6/2008 11:09:04 AM

vinnie71

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Joined: 8/27/2008
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Actually thanks to the suggestions in this thread I managed to come up with a viable strategy. Its a bit insane but...

First turn: sally out with the whole fleet (except for the PD's which are set to the Baltic and the destroyers which are of no use) to the North Atlantic together with the transports present in Wilhelshaven. I just keep the fleet in the North Atlantic for the Three turns getting all the necessary resources. Also I build several transports enough to have 4 in the Baltic (to alternate) and 6 in the Atlantic for the second sortie. When I have 4 DNs repaired (usually mid-1915) I repeat the procedure: sally forth with the whole fleet divided into two: DN+1 CA on patrol orders and BC+3 CA on raiding orders to take out enemy transports. My transports normally make it through (because the AI is more intent on intercepting the High Seas fleet) giving me the resources to fight prolonged war. The Capital ships take heavy damage and require extensive docking and there are bound to be losses. Yet the important thing is that the transports survive and send the precious food and RM back to the fatherland.

This tactic depends NOT sending the transports alone in the Atlantic. This can result in getting your fleet hammered and taking losses but the food and RM are a blessing. One can only use it once or twice a year at most but if co-ordinated with judicious land offensives it offers the chance to cripple the TE. A France first strategy also helps because the removal of the French fleet really stretches the British navy and make her vulnerable to German naval pressure. Also I barely build subs, since they nearly always are intercepted in the North Sea.

(in reply to Sewerlobster)

Post #: 15

RE: CP naval strategy against AI - 10/8/2008 12:25:47 PM

iamspamus

Posts: 433
Joined: 11/16/2006
From: Cambridge, UK
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I agree with USA needing transports to ship resources to the UK. They should still be able to be targeted. However, I disagree with the MED comments. If you could actually get the subs to the MED; then parts, submariners and oil could be shiped overland to Austrian or Turkish ports providing longevity for their use in the MED.

Jason

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lascar

quote:

ORIGINAL: hjaco

Forget about starving Britain to death. When US enters they can freely send 20 food a turn across the Atlantic rendering the need for convoys obsolete.

SUBS are best used in the mediterranean and if you plan on blocking enemy amphibious movement there it may well be worth buying some SUBS. Most entente DD will have to be deployed in the Atlantic together with heavy patrols in any case. Together with the Austrian and Ottoman fleets the build up against OE can be severely delayed.

Those two strategies are valid in game terms but point out that the rules that allow those exploits are ahistorical. All food shipments to Britain must arrive by sea so a continued U-boat campaign would have an impact on those food shipments. Germany did not halt their U-boat campaign once American entered the war.

The ability for the TE to ship resources by sea to allies without having to use transports seems inconsistent with the need to have transports on shipping missions to allow resources to arrive during the Strategic phase i.e. Britian needs 7 transports on shipping mission in the North Atlantic.

The mass deployment of German U-boats in the Mediterranean would not be realistic in the actual war because of logistic reasons and also passing large numbers of them through the straits of Gibraltar would have been problematic at best.

It seems that Frank should consider some sort of modification to the rules to prevent these ahistorical exploits.