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On Shermans and Tigers... - 4/17/2002 8:29:29 PM   
Yogi Yohan

 

Posts: 445
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Uppsala, Sweden
Status: offline 		I have seen a lot of postsers upset over having their Tigers blown up by frontal shots from Shermans. Most assume this should be impossible.

In fact, with some versions of the Sherman this is very much not so, and even the basic Sherman can get lucky if the conditions are right. I arrived to the following conlusions using an armour penetration calculator program.

The original Sherman mounts an 75mm L40 gun named the M3. This weapon could not penetrate either the front hull or front turret at any range, maximum penetration against a 24 degree angle (the angle of the Tiger front hull armour) with standard AP shot is 100mm steel at a 1 meter range. At 25 metres this drops to 99mm. The frontal hull armour of the Tiger is rated at 102mm, and turret front is rated 148mm at a 12 degree angle, so the Tiger is safe head on, right? WRONG!

If the Sherman can fire from a higher ground, this would decrease the angle of the Tigers armour. If the Sherman can be high enough to reduce the angle to 0 degrees, the maximum penetration would be 114mm at 1 meter, or more practical, 113mm at 25m. In fact, the Tiger is not completely safe until its more than 275m away, when max penetration has dropped to 102mm.

Reducing the angle to 0 degrees might be hard, but in any case, a Tiger needs to be carefull with Shermans on higher ground and point blank range.

Later Shermans were armed with a much more capable gun, the 76mm L54,6 M1A1 gun, which also fired sabot ammo (APCR). This was a whole different matter from the M3.

With APCR shot the M1A1 could hole the front hull of a Tiger up to a distance of almost 2000m (Penetration 102mm at a 24 degree angle at a range of 1950m) and the turret at almost 1200m (Penetration 149 mm at a 12 degree angle at 1150 m).

So when you take your big cats out to play against the yanks, be mindful of what type of Sherman your'e facing, and don't get too cocky even against the basic M4 Sherman if they are very close and above you.

The armour penetration calculator can be found at
[URL=http://w1.183.telia.com/~u18312391/documents/panzer/calculator.htm]my homepage.[/URL]
Post #: 1
- 4/18/2002 12:18:49 AM   
WhiteRook

 

Posts: 276
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Minneapolis, MN
Status: offline 		Here - Here! About time some one spoke up for the lowly Sherman! :D
Now I must grab that armor calc program, thanks! ;)

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Post #: 2
Re: On Shermans and Tigers... - 4/18/2002 11:27:10 AM   
tohoku

 

Posts: 415
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: at lunch, thanks.
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yogi Yohan


Reducing the angle to 0 degrees might be hard, but in any case, a Tiger needs to be carefull with Shermans on higher ground and point blank range.
[/QUOTE]

What was the average engagement range once out of Normandy...? Not 25 metres, I suspect, for a start...



[QUOTE]
Later Shermans were armed with a much more capable gun, the 76mm L54,6 M1A1 gun, which also fired sabot ammo (APCR). This was a whole different matter from the M3.
[/QUOTE]



Try HVAP. APCR isn't a sabot round. HVAP was also pretty uncommon - fewer than 5 rounds carried on average *at the end of the war*. A crew would be lucky to see one in 1944. The British managed about three times the issue rate for APDS for the 17pdr by wars end.


[QUOTE]
With APCR shot the M1A1 could hole the front hull of a Tiger up to a distance of almost 2000m (Penetration 102mm at a 24 degree angle at a range of 1950m) and the turret at almost 1200m (Penetration 149 mm at a 12 degree angle at 1150 m).
[/QUOTE]

Really? Chamberlain lists much lower performance for 76mm HVAP. So do the IWM publications, IIRC.

In fact, the figures you quote would make it outperform a 17pdr firing APDS, which strikes me (as it were) as... "somewhat unlikely".



tohoku
YMMV

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Post #: 3
- 4/18/2002 2:53:39 PM   
Yogi Yohan

 

Posts: 445
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Uppsala, Sweden
Status: offline 		I got the armour penetration data from Claus Bonnesens site [url]www.panser.dk[/url] (which now unfortunately seems to have been hijacked by some sick satanist porn freak).

In any case, the source he lists for the data on the M1A1 gun is "Sherman, the American Medium Tank" by Hunnicut. The penetration data I used was for the M93 HVAP round, which Bonnesen lists under APCR (maybe to give consistent comparision between the different "special" ammo types used by different combatants). In SPWAW, APCR is used for all high-velocity ammunition, which is why I used it instead of HVAP. The same site gives data for the 17-pounder (also from Hunnicut) that would make it able to hole a Tiger hull at somwhat above 4500 meters with APDS. So in no way does the M1A1 outperform the 17-pounder.

I don't know what source the Matrix crew used for the M1A1 data, but in any case, players should be aware that it does represent a serious threat to their Tigers.

And as for the typical tank combat range, it was about 600m, so yes, in the real World War 2, M4 Sherman crews would have avoided any encounter with a Tiger if at all possible and would for all practical purposes have been unable to hole a Tiger front at any range. No way one would drive over a hill top to purposely confront a Tiger head to head at 25 meters, counting on an angle advantage to save the day. I wouldn't have, not in a million years.

SPWAW, is a game though, and players fighting with or against Tigers with or against Shermans should be aware of the freak possibilites, however unlikely they would have been in real life.

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Post #: 4
Using SPWAW data - 4/18/2002 6:09:11 PM   
Yogi Yohan

 

Posts: 445
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Uppsala, Sweden
Status: offline 		I have used SPWAW penetration data now (which I should have done to begin with) and the the following applies:

Sherman with 76mm M1A1C HVAP (called APCR in SPWAW)- Can potentially hole the frontal hull of an early Tiger I up to 1550m/31 hexes (penetration 103mm against a 24 degree slope). For a late Tiger I the maximum penetration range is 1450 meter/29 hexes (penetration 113mm against an 18 degree slope).

The 75mm M3 doesn't have a prayer at frontal penetration at any range or any angle.

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Post #: 5
- 4/19/2002 1:35:36 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		As one of the people who complained about the penetration of the 75mm M3, I must point out that the complaint was against longer range shots (10+ hexes, usually on the high end!), and no one said that it should be 'impossible'. It should be unlikely, however. US doctrine called for 5 Shermans for every Tiger, and they needed to close on the flanks to do it. The reason was because of the low-velocity M3.

It isn't a big deal, it just happens more often than it should. Falchion and I are having it out with the GER/BRIT's, and I have lost four Tiger's to frontal hits at 12 hexes or more. At this rate, I should have purchased Sherman V's!


Goblin

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Post #: 6
- 4/19/2002 2:21:10 AM   
panda124c

 

Posts: 1692
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline 		This does ignore the 'shot trap' under the Tiger's mantel which will lock the turrent making a very big and slow assualt gun which the Sherman can drive around behind and 'put a banna in it's tail pipe' :D

The Sherman's advantage was maneuverability you know 'ring around the Tiger' with 5 Shermans. :D

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Post #: 7
Re: Using SPWAW data - 4/19/2002 2:23:52 AM   
panda124c

 

Posts: 1692
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yogi Yohan
[B]I have used SPWAW penetration data now (which I should have done to begin with) and the the following applies:

Sherman with 76mm M1A1C HVAP (called APCR in SPWAW)- Can potentially hole the frontal hull of an early Tiger I up to 1550m/31 hexes (penetration 103mm against a 24 degree slope). For a late Tiger I the maximum penetration range is 1450 meter/29 hexes (penetration 113mm against an 18 degree slope).

The 75mm M3 doesn't have a prayer at frontal penetration at any range or any angle. [/B][/QUOTE]

Unless the Tiger misses. We always have hope.

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Post #: 8
- 4/19/2002 4:05:33 AM   
Yogi Yohan

 

Posts: 445
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Uppsala, Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goblin
[B]As one of the people who complained about the penetration of the 75mm M3, I must point out that the complaint was against longer range shots (10+ hexes, usually on the high end!), and no one said that it should be 'impossible'. It should be unlikely, however. US doctrine called for 5 Shermans for every Tiger, and they needed to close on the flanks to do it. The reason was because of the low-velocity M3.

It isn't a big deal, it just happens more often than it should. Falchion and I are having it out with the GER/BRIT's, and I have lost four Tiger's to frontal hits at 12 hexes or more. At this rate, I should have purchased Sherman V's!
Goblin [/B][/QUOTE]

That is a mystery. Looking at the data used in SPWAW, the M3 shouldn't pierce the Tiger frontally at even point blank range, much less 10 hexes. Is it perhaps a question of hitting a "vulnerable location"? Although at range, that should be extremely unlikely too.

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Post #: 9
- 4/19/2002 4:07:05 AM   
Yogi Yohan

 

Posts: 445
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Uppsala, Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by pbear
[B]This does ignore the 'shot trap' under the Tiger's mantel... [/B][/QUOTE]

I belive "vulnerable location hit" is there to (admitedly imperfectly) simulate this sort of thing.

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Post #: 10
- 4/19/2002 5:04:13 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yogi Yohan
[B]

That is a mystery. Looking at the data used in SPWAW, the M3 shouldn't pierce the Tiger frontally at even point blank range, much less 10 hexes. Is it perhaps a question of hitting a "vulnerable location"? Although at range, that should be extremely unlikely too. [/B][/QUOTE]

At least 2 of them were vulnerable hits. Not sure about the other two. One may have been from the 75mm OQF MV on the Crocodile (PEN106). I think there is a variable number added to the penetration numbers listed. As to what it is, ?. Paul Vebber explained it in a recent post, I just forget which one. With that random number, a higher percentage of kills is obtained. You're telling me its a mystery! I was marching PzIVH's and Tigers into a death zone!:mad: :eek: The 17#er on those Sherman V Fireflies is bad enough without having to worry about that many kills from M3.:(

Goblin

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Post #: 11
- 4/19/2002 1:56:21 PM   
Bernie


Posts: 1779
Joined: 3/15/2002
From: Depot HQ - Virginia
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by pbear
[B]This does ignore the 'shot trap' under the Tiger's mantel which will lock the turrent making a very big and slow assualt gun which the Sherman can drive around behind and 'put a banna in it's tail pipe' :D

The Sherman's advantage was maneuverability you know 'ring around the Tiger' with 5 Shermans. :D [/B][/QUOTE]

The shot trap was only a problem on very early model Tigers and even then it took an extremely lucky hit.

However, one thing Paul did point out in his reply on this subject in another thread was that vulnerable location hits also took into account multiple hits to the same area of armor. Yeah, the front armor on a Tiger could deflect a 75mm...once or twice, but keep pounding on it and it's gonna eventually give.

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Post #: 12
- 4/20/2002 10:37:28 AM   
WhiteRook

 

Posts: 276
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Minneapolis, MN
Status: offline 		[COLOR=orangered]I think it really comes down to which do you prefer, a moderitly good tank available in numbers or a heavy tank that there is only a few of? Personaly I would go for the numbers. Don't misunderstand me I like Tigers, Panthers are cooler but I like Tigers none the less. And all the other boards I have been on everyone gives me crap because I like the Pershing, yep its my personal favorite hands down! But bottom line the game is fun, and as commanders we get to play with more toys than any real-life commander got to![/COLOR] :D :D

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Post #: 13
- 4/20/2002 11:20:12 AM   
Major Destruction


Posts: 881
Joined: 8/10/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Did any Pershing ever face a tiger in ww2?

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Post #: 14
- 4/20/2002 8:44:28 PM   
Arralen


Posts: 827
Joined: 5/21/2000
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goblin
[B]At least 2 of them were vulnerable hits. Not sure about the other two. One may have been from the 75mm OQF MV on the Crocodile (PEN106). I think there is a variable number added to the penetration numbers listed. As to what it is, ?. Paul Vebber explained it in a recent post, I just forget which one. With that random number, a higher percentage of kills is obtained. Goblin [/B][/QUOTE]

Maybe you ment this:

" the pen ratings listed for both HE and HEAT are "nominal". Unlike AP, the actual effect you will obtain can vary signicantly. - Paul Vebber"

So you see - AP does not vary greatly.
So if you're worried about the frontal penetration, crank up your message delay and note the messages carefully.

But I'll do a quick test ....

A.

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Post #: 15
- 4/20/2002 8:52:47 PM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		Thanks Arralen,

Knew I saw that somewhere. So AP doesn't have any random numbers attatched to them? If thats the case, then vulnerable location hits happen far too often, or I am the most unlucky person in this forum! Maybe Falchion is the luckiest? He only lives a few miles from me, and I swear I could hear his whoops of delight from here....


Goblin

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Post #: 16
- 4/20/2002 9:08:22 PM   
Arralen


Posts: 827
Joined: 5/21/2000
Status: offline 		... ok, here it is:

16 hits, frontally over 12 hexes, straight-on;

- NULL penetrations
- PenAP ranging from 75 to 91
(SPWAW gives PenAP 91@10);
med. PenAP is 85 (says my pocket
calc.)
- shot 8 and 9 destroyed coax-mg and
radio mast, though

So I'm 99% shure SPWAW works correct here, and the kills you observed where either from vulnerable location hits or simply by another gun.

Or you're really simply just the unluckiest boy I know ... after me :)

A.

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Post #: 17
- 4/20/2002 9:53:51 PM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		Thanks Arralen,

They were not from other guns. I don't think I am all that unlucky, but Falchion has a horseshoe stuck up his a$$! He also has a knack for advancing on a prepared position and recieving fire with 85% hit chances from tanks in cover, and not taking ANY hits! He then shoots and kills a tank with a mere 15% hit chance (he's moving), and recieves op fire at 85%, again taking no hits, then kills another tank. Tincan and I have seen him kill a half dozen tanks this way, with no casualties. Its very annoying.

So I figure with my almighty Tigers, I could advance on Shermans the same way, right? Wrong! After my scouts discovered where those Fireflies were, and steering wide of them, I proceeded to lose those Tigers, against Sherman V's. Visibility was 14, thats how I know the range the kills took place at. He fired when given the op fire. Anyways, thanks for the effort. :)

Goblin

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Post #: 18
- 4/21/2002 3:15:47 AM   
Bernie


Posts: 1779
Joined: 3/15/2002
From: Depot HQ - Virginia
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goblin
[B]Thanks Arralen,

They were not from other guns. I don't think I am all that unlucky, but Falchion has a horseshoe stuck up his a$$! He also has a knack for advancing on a prepared position and recieving fire with 85% hit chances from tanks in cover, and not taking ANY hits! He then shoots and kills a tank with a mere 15% hit chance (he's moving), and recieves op fire at 85%, again taking no hits, then kills another tank. Tincan and I have seen him kill a half dozen tanks this way, with no casualties. Its very annoying.

So I figure with my almighty Tigers, I could advance on Shermans the same way, right? Wrong! After my scouts discovered where those Fireflies were, and steering wide of them, I proceeded to lose those Tigers, against Sherman V's. Visibility was 14, thats how I know the range the kills took place at. He fired when given the op fire. Anyways, thanks for the effort. :)

Goblin [/B][/QUOTE]

I'd be interested to know what his and your preferences are set at for tank toughness and accuracy.

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Post #: 19
- 4/21/2002 6:25:40 AM   
Arralen


Posts: 827
Joined: 5/21/2000
Status: offline 		I'm starting to wonder, too .. also which versions of SPWAW you're both using.

With v7.1 it is impossible to achieve kills with a "75mm-Sherman" at 700m unless you get a "vulnerable location hit" .. and those should be rare.

Notice you're always speaking 'bout a Sherman V .. what's that supposed to be ??

A.

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Post #: 20
- 4/21/2002 7:38:07 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		Arralen,

I just talked to Falchion, and he thinks it was a half dozen Tigers. I still think four. Impossible is awful strong, because it happened. Incidentally, he took down a Sturmtiger frontally also. With a Sherman V. As I stated earlier, this was GER/BRIT. The version is 7.1, no mods to any penetrations or armor.

Bernie,

Good thought. I hosted, so I set prefs. Just to be sure, I checked with him to see if his were different. They were not. Both of us were at 100%. Falchion is a very close friend of over a decade, and is trustworthy. If he said they were at 100, I don't doubt it in the least.

Paul Vebber,

Is there any modifiers that could possibly explain this? Or AM I just really unlucky (or he just really lucky)?


Goblin

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Post #: 21
- 4/21/2002 8:06:30 AM   
Bernie


Posts: 1779
Joined: 3/15/2002
From: Depot HQ - Virginia
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goblin
[B]Arralen,

I just talked to Falchion, and he thinks it was a half dozen Tigers. I still think four. Impossible is awful strong, because it happened. Incidentally, he also took down a Sturmtiger frontally also. With a Sherman V. As I stated earlier, this was GER/BRIT. The version is 7.1, no mods to any penetrations or armor.

Bernie,

Good thought. I hosted, so I set prefs. Just to be sure, I checked with him to see if his were different. They were no. Both of us were at 100%. Falchion is a very close friend odf over a decade, and is trustworthy. If he said they were at 100, I don't doubt it in the least.

Paul Vebber,

Is there any modifiers that could possibly explain this? Or AM I just really unlucky (or he just really lucky)?


Goblin [/B][/QUOTE]

Okay, were those early or late model Tigers? I ask because the late model Tigers had front armor rated 110, while the early models were rated 105. Slopes were (respectivly) 21 and 16. Now, looking at the Sherman V we see that it had a penetration rating of 102 using the 75mm M3 gun...and HE rounds. Now, ifit was rated 102 with HE, what about AP? Even so, with just the HE, that puts the rating within 3 points of the early Tigers, and Paul did say there's a built-in range of leeway there. If it were only 10% higher that would put the PEN at 112, just enough to theoreticaly punch through that armor on either Tiger.

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Post #: 22
- 4/21/2002 8:13:26 AM   
Bernie


Posts: 1779
Joined: 3/15/2002
From: Depot HQ - Virginia
Status: offline 		Nevermind what I just said about HE...those ratings were for AP. Read the wrong table.


However, I did run across something interesting...

There are two Sherman V's in the British OOB. Both are almost the same excepting for a third MG and one other thing... One of them carries 6 HEAT rounds. I'll bet that's what's been killing your Tigers.

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Post #: 23
- 4/21/2002 8:19:25 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		Bernie,

That 102 [I]is[/I] the AP round penetration. Its HE PEN is only a mesely 25. Its PEN for AP is 102(1 hex), 91(10 hexes), 78(20), 66(30), 53(40). The HE PEN is a straight 25 out to 40 hexes. That means I was losing Tigers to a base PEN of 78! They were Tiger(Early) models. Falchion says he killed half a dozen, with one to the 75mm OQF MV, but he says one was a top hit. That explains one. Three with the two vulnerable hits I remember. That leaves one (or three if you go with his estimate-I think he is remembering some 17# gun hits from the Fireflies or Achilles II). Maybe I missed it, and it was another vulnerable/top hit. I don't know. Its very frustrating, because I quite purposefully stayed away from King Tigers and Jagdtigers because they are near impossible for a Sherman V to kill. Honor amongst friends and all that, :) ;)

Goblin

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Post #: 24
- 4/21/2002 8:26:59 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bernie
[B]There are two Sherman V's in the British OOB. Both are almost the same excepting for a third MG and one other thing... One of them carries 6 HEAT rounds. I'll bet that's what's been killing your Tigers. [/B][/QUOTE]

You are a genius! I just looked, and you are correct. I bought a Medium Tank Squadron, and every third tank has 3 HEAT rnds. The command tanks. The PEN for HEAT from the M3 isn't listed on the Sherman V's PEN tables, so I never looked at its ammo loadout! Wow, something so simple, yet so aggrevating! Thanks Bernie and Arralen for trying to help me figure this out!:cool:

Goblin

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Post #: 25
- 4/21/2002 4:24:07 PM   
antarctic

 

Posts: 132
Joined: 5/24/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline 		One more thing to consider in this Tiger vs Sherman battle... until late in the war, the German tankers were crack veterans, while the American boys had (for the most part) just come out of school.
However, I have to agree with Yogi... even the largest juggernaut can be defeated by a small unit.

Antarctic

PS As a matter of personal opinion, I prefer not to use Shermans as AT platforms, but rather as "Tiger bait", to draw them to a nice treeline, where a couple of infantry squads are waiting. When the big cat gets real close..... poof! No more Tiger.

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Post #: 26
Tiger Tactics - 4/22/2002 12:57:12 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Me too, Antarctic.

Best to draw any large, over-gunned, up-armored beast into a tight, killing ground situation. ATG and bazooka usually do a fine job of offing just about any vehicle.

Alternately, you could pound them with arty to strip off the supporting infantry and hopefully impair their mobility. Smoke 'em up really good and move in with light AT units at close range.

Discussing Heavies with friends recently, I declared that seeing those heavy, slow, and EXPENSIVE beasts, just means that there are fewer targets (threats) I have to deal with.

Tigers, despite their thick armor, have very little slope factored in. In the current balllistic models, ricochets are common against high slope armor. (T34, et al) but rare against the slab-sided Tiger. Take out his Gun Optics, radio, engine; and it becomes a blind pillbox. :rolleyes:

Of course, any savvy Tiger commander recognizes that this beast is best in open country at long range. They should never be moved into a tight, restrictive situation unless highly motivated or well supported by infantry. :cool:

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Post #: 27
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