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Zoom out on strategic map - 10/29/2008 12:21:39 PM   
moose1999

 

Posts: 788
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline 		Would it be possible to add a zoom-out function to the strategic map?
I don't find the default zoom-level good for much - it's much to zoomed in to be of any real use.
And the mini-map has the opposite problem...!
A shame, as the screenshot of the full map you posted in another thread (Link to map screenshot) looked really nice (and useful...).

I assume such a thing as a more zoomed out strategic map would be pretty hard to mod in, right...?

EDIT: Added link to the map screenshot.

< Message edited by briny_norman -- 10/29/2008 12:23:38 PM >

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RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 10/29/2008 12:52:04 PM   
Nomada_Firefox

 

Posts: 1327
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From: Spain
Status: offline 		I would like more one slower mouse scroll on strategy map, it is too fast. 

(in reply to moose1999)
Post #: 2
RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 10/29/2008 1:14:41 PM   
moose1999

 

Posts: 788
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline 		Yep, it is.
You can slow it down somewhat by choosing slow scroll speed in the options menu, but it's still too fast.

Another thing: It's really irritating not to be able to issue commands when the game is paused.
This is pretty much ruining the playing experience for me, actually.
Not at all the way I'd like to play the game...
Could this feature be added in a patch - or is it moddable...?


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RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 10/29/2008 2:24:02 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Status: offline 		Setting scroll speed to slow in the options is still too fast? We'll see what we can do.

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Post #: 4
RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 10/29/2008 2:31:08 PM   
Peter Fisla


Posts: 2503
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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: briny_norman

Yep, it is.
You can slow it down somewhat by choosing slow scroll speed in the options menu, but it's still too fast.

Another thing: It's really irritating not to be able to issue commands when the game is paused.
This is pretty much ruining the playing experience for me, actually.
Not at all the way I'd like to play the game...
Could this feature be added in a patch - or is it moddable...?




This used to be in, at least I know it's there in CC2. This was removed? I will check CC4 today when I get home today...

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RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 10/29/2008 2:52:54 PM   
moose1999

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Setting scroll speed to slow in the options is still too fast? We'll see what we can do.


Scroll speed is fine on the tactical map when set to slow, but on the strategic map it's too fast - which also has something to do with the very zoomed in view...
Would also be nice to be able to scroll the strategic map with the arrow buttons and not only with the mouse...



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RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 10/29/2008 4:17:10 PM   
himmelstoss


Posts: 161
Joined: 9/22/2003
From: CA, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: briny_norman

Another thing: It's really irritating not to be able to issue commands when the game is paused.
This is pretty much ruining the playing experience for me, actually.
Not at all the way I'd like to play the game...
Could this feature be added in a patch - or is it moddable...?



second that one!! i would love it if i could give orders in pause!

himmelstoss

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RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 10/29/2008 4:43:55 PM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
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From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline 		Well giving order in "pause mode" is not really what the CC series is about at all IMHO.

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RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 10/29/2008 5:40:22 PM   
himmelstoss


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From: CA, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc von Martial

Well giving order in "pause mode" is not really what the CC series is about at all IMHO.



yes i do understand, but we are writing the year 2008 and thus having options in a game to enable certain things or not to, would surely be nice.

immer voran,

himmelstoss

< Message edited by himmelstoss -- 10/29/2008 5:41:27 PM >

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Post #: 9
RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 10/29/2008 6:42:38 PM   
Sgt.Fury25


Posts: 141
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline 		Hi,enjoying the game no complaints so far.But wonder if a zoom in option could be implemated as in coi.Thanks

(in reply to moose1999)
Post #: 10
RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 10/29/2008 7:26:22 PM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline 		1.Too see the strat map and it's connections navigate to C:\Matrix Games\Close Combat Wacht am Rhein\Support\WaR_strat_Connections.pdf 

Print is out, Laminate it, you can even use it to sketch on and plan moves and counter moves.

2.The strat map can be scrolled using the sliders on the right and bottom of the map.


3.Will look at the fast scroll using the mouse.

4.Close Combat is real time Tactical combat - no orders while paused, that's for turn based games and would require a complete code rewrite.

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Post #: 11
RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 10/30/2008 1:02:32 AM   
Senior Drill


Posts: 199
Joined: 11/21/2007
From: Quantico
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ronson

Hi,enjoying the game no complaints so far.But wonder if a zoom in option could be implemated as in coi.Thanks


Not likely to happen. First off, it would take some code changes and I don't have a clue as to whether those would be minor or major. In historical context, Atomic Games pumped out CC4 and CC5 within 21 months of the release of CC3. There was a major re-write of the game engine code twix CC3 and CC4. One of the things let go of in that fast production time was the extra work and expense required to create the zoomed in animations. These aren't just different resolutions of those images, but seperately drawn and painted versions of the standard view images, which is why the tanks and infantry sprites stand out so well against what becomes a pixelated map background.

For CC4 and beyond, those second sets of Soldier animations, the Vehicle hulls and turrets, Guns and Shadows file collections were dropped based on a time and expense decison, right or wrong, and the coding for the Zoom In was disabled or deleted. The buttons certainly were and only TheBlood! could say for sure about the coding. There was also a major pallete colors change made between CC3 and CC4. As most any modder could tell you, it is a major undertaking to attempt to re-color all those thousands of images.

Not trying to be a nay sayer here, just attempting to point out why Atomic ditched the feature oh so long ago and why it would be a daunting and expensive task to re-implement it. Perhaps it could happen one day, but Bidness being Bidness, it just screams to me to be a very low or no return on the consideralbe dollars that would have to be expended to add that back in.

Personally, I'm more interested in gathering more situational awareness of my battlespace, rather than a close up of the blood and gore of a battle on a pixelated map background. I'd rather see Matrix put the time and expense in developing a mid level Zoom Out that uses a mico set of vehicle, gun and soldier sprites that is mid way between the standard view and the overview that uses icons. That, to me, would be a more valuable innovation than a retro 320 x 200 view.

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Post #: 12
RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 10/30/2008 1:55:47 AM   
Tejszd

 

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quote:

I'd rather see Matrix put the time and expense in developing a mid level Zoom Out that uses a mico set of vehicle, gun and soldier sprites that is mid way between the standard view and the overview


Time to upgrade the monitor Drill to a 24". At 1920x1200 you can see a lot of the map....

As a comprise it would be nice to have maps and vehicles at the same scale as the soldiers. That way they both could be more detailed....

< Message edited by Tejszd -- 10/30/2008 1:56:03 AM >

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Post #: 13
RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 10/30/2008 2:10:49 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
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quote:

ORIGINAL: briny_norman
Another thing: It's really irritating not to be able to issue commands when the game is paused.
This is pretty much ruining the playing experience for me, actually.



Set the speed on the tactical level to slow.

As one team is providing cover another team is advancing. At the slow speed you have time to make a cuppa before the advancing team reaches its destination.

When it gets there you can give another order. Then get some milk for the tea

-



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Post #: 14
RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 10/30/2008 3:36:04 AM   
Senior Drill


Posts: 199
Joined: 11/21/2007
From: Quantico
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

Set the speed on the tactical level to slow.

As one team is providing cover another team is advancing. At the slow speed you have time to make a cuppa before the advancing team reaches its destination.

When it gets there you can give another order. Then get some milk for the tea


It's hard to keep up with your versions, Joe. Wasn't your JoeME you advocating for PBEM? Not only time for a cuppa, but time for a crappa and a shower and a nap. ;)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tejszd

Time to upgrade the monitor Drill to a 24". At 1920x1200 you can see a lot of the map....

As a comprise it would be nice to have maps and vehicles at the same scale as the soldiers. That way they both could be more detailed....


Actually use a 26" monitor/HDTV combo at 1920x1200. Would still like to see more real estate with sprites as opposed to icons, so I stay firm on advocating the idea of a mid Zoom Out that uses mini sprites before resolving to icons that overlap in tight areas.

Still, I do need to get to the optometrist for some new glasses. Especially considering that trying to type things on 1920x1200 sometimes needs that head bod closer in to see if the "s" is really an "s" and not a "z". It took me three years to finally memorize how to type your name and get my spell checker to accept it, but my typing thumbs seem to be growing thicker.

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Post #: 15
RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 10/30/2008 3:46:22 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		I have never advocated PBEM for Close Combat.

I one time posted an idea for a different game that would work best as PBEM.

I should re-post it

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Post #: 16
RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 10/30/2008 7:33:07 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		In the next Close Combat, instead of trying to fit a "Pause and give orders" you could take another approach.

Currently the tactical battles run at Fast, Medium and Slow.

Simply make Slow, even slower than it is now.

Further, when the game is released, make Slow, the default speed

-


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Post #: 17
RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 10/30/2008 7:42:30 AM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline 		some one hand me a bucket.


Joe Joe Joe


At the same time we can include 1st person shooter mode and MMORPG and a SIMS switch.


Include a few Ridge Racing tanks and schwimmwagens and a stealthy Submarine level just after the JU-87 Flight dive bomber level.

sounds good to me

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Post #: 18
RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 10/30/2008 7:45:10 AM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline 		oh I forgot... we could finish with an assassins creed do away with Ill Duce mode for the real grogs.


Joe , we're not gonna make a game that appeals to everyone, if we try it will appeal to no one.

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Post #: 19
RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 10/30/2008 10:28:36 AM   
Fred98


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From: Wollondilly, Sydney
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

,,,,we're not gonna make a game that appeals to everyone, if we try it will appeal to no one.




How is that?

Make "Slow" slower than it is now and leave "Medium" and "Fast" at the current speed.

You're not changing the game, just one setting.





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Post #: 20
RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 10/30/2008 10:49:04 AM   
e_barkmann


Posts: 1307
Joined: 4/18/2000
From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline 		actually, I'm finding 'fast' a lot slower than it used to be in previous games... <ducks>

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RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 10/30/2008 10:51:42 AM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Time should tick away in real time at Fast setting.

ie 15min battle will take 15minutes  any slower setting will take longer.

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Post #: 22
RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 10/30/2008 5:07:57 PM   
jimi3


Posts: 151
Joined: 7/4/2006
From: Michigan
Status: offline 		Senior Drill,
Thanks for the explanation on zoom in. I had no idea it was that involved. Scratched from the wish list. I’ve been having so much fun I don’t miss it anyways. I agree on the mid level zoom out. I have “lost” a unit more than once on the battlefield. Hope that feature makes it to an update. Love this game !!!
Jim

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Post #: 23
RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 10/30/2008 8:28:36 PM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
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From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: himmelstoss

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc von Martial

Well giving order in "pause mode" is not really what the CC series is about at all IMHO.



yes i do understand, but we are writing the year 2008 and thus having options in a game to enable certain things or not to, would surely be nice.


That has nothing to do with the year. This is a feature, not a fault. I#m very sure if Atomic wanted they could have coded that already in CC2. The whole essence of the game is based on fast decission making and not on thinking 5 minutes about your next move


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RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 11/1/2008 11:46:37 AM   
dogancan

 

Posts: 189
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From: Ankara - Turkey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: briny_norman

Would it be possible to add a zoom-out function to the strategic map?
I don't find the default zoom-level good for much - it's much to zoomed in to be of any real use.


Totally agree, a zoomed-out strategic map is needed to really see the 'strategic' situation. Hope we can see it in the next patch...

(in reply to moose1999)
Post #: 25
RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 11/1/2008 1:53:51 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dogancan

Totally agree, a zoomed-out strategic map is needed to really see the 'strategic' situation. Hope we can see it in the next patch...



A zoomed-in, tactical map is needed so that I can distinguish one tank from another at 1920x1200 on a 24" monitor. Those darn Stuarts and Greyhounds are awfully small on that sort of display setup.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)


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RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 11/3/2008 5:29:54 AM   
Stwa


Posts: 484
Joined: 8/12/2005
Status: offline 		My takes on some of these subjects;

Commands during pause: In the old days I would play with 15 minute time limit. Then, by accident, I discovered that playing with no time limit (especially against the AI), seemed much more realistic to me. The AI and the human players can slow things down and initiate attacks in a more controlled manner. You can spread out and cover all the objectives at once on the larger maps. You can hunker down and negate those accurate German morter barrages. You've got time to hide your halftracks in the woods, and then pull them out when you can best use them. And of course, you've got time to issue orders. In fact, you've got time to go to the fridge for a beer. Sometimes I will set force moral on, but other times I wont, so the only way off the map is through a truce.

Zooming: Since I got a larger montior (32" 1360 x 768), the necessity for zooming is not required. The strat map seems to close, for the most part, because the viewing area is just to small. This could be changed, I suppose, but I have always liked the CC5 strat map. On the battle screen, because of the size of the monitor, the individual soldiers and vehciles look large and finely detailed. Animations and explosions have never looked better. It's like CC was meant for an LCD monitor from the start.

CC Game: I have never found a military subject game (real-time) that I like better than CC. The final evolution of Atomic's series to CC5 was a real masterpiece (I think). I would not wan't the caretakers of the series, going forward, to add new game features, per se. I would prefer that current features properly de-bugged, refined, and made moddable if possible.

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RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 11/3/2008 7:53:10 AM   
moose1999

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl


quote:

ORIGINAL: dogancan

Totally agree, a zoomed-out strategic map is needed to really see the 'strategic' situation. Hope we can see it in the next patch...



A zoomed-in, tactical map is needed so that I can distinguish one tank from another at 1920x1200 on a 24" monitor. Those darn Stuarts and Greyhounds are awfully small on that sort of display setup.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)



I have a 22' monitor (1680x1080) and what I did was reduce the game resolution a notch or two.
That makes everything more discerneble and still gives you a good view of the battlefield.

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RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 11/3/2008 8:36:46 AM   
squadleader_id


Posts: 302
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stwa

My takes on some of these subjects;

Commands during pause: In the old days I would play with 15 minute time limit. Then, by accident, I discovered that playing with no time limit (especially against the AI), seemed much more realistic to me. The AI and the human players can slow things down and initiate attacks in a more controlled manner. You can spread out and cover all the objectives at once on the larger maps. You can hunker down and negate those accurate German morter barrages. You've got time to hide your halftracks in the woods, and then pull them out when you can best use them. And of course, you've got time to issue orders. In fact, you've got time to go to the fridge for a beer. Sometimes I will set force moral on, but other times I wont, so the only way off the map is through a truce.


Actually setting 15 minute time limit is recommended for playing against the AI.
The AI isn't much of an opponent...so 15 minutes will give you the best challenge.
The best setting is of course attacking, with the AI defending...with just 15 minutes...you need to be fast and decisive (like what Andrew's been demoing...or trying to ;)...through his video AARs).
Playing as the defender against attacking AI...he will spend 3/4 of the time camping...then make a move in the last 5 minutes or so :)


< Message edited by squadleader_id -- 11/3/2008 8:37:50 AM >

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RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 11/3/2008 9:29:45 AM   
Stwa


Posts: 484
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quote:

ORIGINAL: squadleader_id

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stwa

My takes on some of these subjects;

Commands during pause: In the old days I would play with 15 minute time limit. Then, by accident, I discovered that playing with no time limit (especially against the AI), seemed much more realistic to me. The AI and the human players can slow things down and initiate attacks in a more controlled manner. You can spread out and cover all the objectives at once on the larger maps. You can hunker down and negate those accurate German morter barrages. You've got time to hide your halftracks in the woods, and then pull them out when you can best use them. And of course, you've got time to issue orders. In fact, you've got time to go to the fridge for a beer. Sometimes I will set force moral on, but other times I wont, so the only way off the map is through a truce.


Actually setting 15 minute time limit is recommended for playing against the AI.
The AI isn't much of an opponent...so 15 minutes will give you the best challenge.
The best setting is of course attacking, with the AI defending...with just 15 minutes...you need to be fast and decisive (like what Andrew's been demoing...or trying to ;)...through his video AARs).
Playing as the defender against attacking AI...he will spend 3/4 of the time camping...then make a move in the last 5 minutes or so :)



What you mention has been basically the standard mantra for a decade or more now. And it's more what people want. A sudden 15 minitue impulse of bullets and death raining from all directions.

But, if you will set the game to no time limit, the AI can't initiate his attacks in the last 5 minutes because there is no time limit.
This method allows you to play as the defender as well as the attacker with about the same results. Here are the advantages the way I see them.

1. You don't know precisely when the AI will attack if ever. Unless you looked, you don't know what teams the AI has. Now, if we could only fix it so you werent sure how many teams the AI had, this would be perfect.

2. You need to arrange for the defense of your ALL your objectives (not counting road exits), since the AI can take his time and prepare more than one axis of advance.

3. The AI is not as stupid as people think, and would prefer to ambush you rather than attack you (duh)! Funny I feel the same way as the AI.

4. Ammo becomes a huge consideration, because there is no time limit. Be careful or your game will take on an Islanwandu look and feel.

5. You will still mainly defeat the AI, but you can reduce the number of your teams, or give the AI another tank, to balance things out.

6. The aggressiveness of the AI will be mainly a function of the aggression rating of the on the spot commander.

7. Also, if you could modify what constitutes a failure in force moral, one could put at end to human player Rambo tactics forever. That being said, attackers should expect greater loss, so in single map games, some adjustment in teams should be expected.

8. In a 15 minute game, you don't care how many doods get wasted, your only trying to capture the objectives, and in a campaign game, you are trying to force the ememy off the map so their entire force will disband. A huge disadvantage for the poor AI.

9. With no time limits imposed, you must control the tempo of the battle, otherwise, their can be ugly consequneces. A 15 minute game has only one tempo (Rambo). In the attached map, I did well controlling the house to house fighting, eventually capturing the town, without using up all my ammo, or getting my people killed. But after the battle, the AI brought another Sherman out (which had been hiding behind a hedge during the entire battle), and it pinned down and mowed down my teams.

The attachment is from my Juno Beach data mod (the map is from GJS), where the Americans are forced to relieve the British after their initial landings are repulsed, and their airborne units were eliminated.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Stwa -- 11/3/2008 11:29:43 AM >

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