RE: 1.25

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War I] >> Guns of August 1914 - 1918 >> RE: 1.25

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RE: 1.25 - 11/8/2008 4:37:11 AM

ILCK

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Joined: 6/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrvalB

Could you please please please do something about the Austro-Hungarian navy? Something very realistic, like have them start off with next to no naval assets. Thereafter, if the CP wants to blow scarce Austro points on the navy, they would, might be smart in some circumstances actually, but there is no way on earth that they should start loaded and rarin' for bear that way. Throughout the war, and in any realistic sense, there was just no real possibility of major Austro naval rampaging about the Med. Unlike WWII, the Med was a pretty placid allied lake, really.

And yeah, the AI has a major predeliction for an Eastern strategy. And it seems to learn, you beat it up badly enough once on a Schiff type plan, and it never ever tries it again.

The AH navy is freakishly difficult to defeat, for reasons I do not get. They seem to drag down an inordinate amount of TE resources. I've never seen anyone beat them in equal combat. I'd say limiting their naval points is a good idea.

I've never seen the AI go west either. It'd be nice if it was more of a 50-50 thing for single player games because when I play the TE I've gotten fairly into a rut.

(in reply to OrvalB)

Post #: 31

RE: 1.25 - 11/8/2008 1:43:45 PM

Naskra

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quote:

Could you please please please do something about the Austro-Hungarian navy? Something very realistic, like have them start off with next to no naval assets. Thereafter, if the CP wants to blow scarce Austro points on the navy, they would, might be smart in some circumstances actually, but there is no way on earth that they should start loaded and rarin' for bear that way. Throughout the war, and in any realistic sense, there was just no real possibility of major Austro naval rampaging about the Med. Unlike WWII, the Med was a pretty placid allied lake, really.

AH can't do a whole lot of rampaging with those 4 naval points.
The TE is already given a free pass in the Med on turn 1. Those reinforcements that appear in Paris on turn 2 are largely the French Colonial Corps shipped over from Africa. Transporting them safely to Toulon was a matter of the gravest concern to the French admiraty. With the Goeben not even in play, the French navy really has nothing better to do than beat on the Austrians if they appear.

(in reply to ILCK)

Post #: 32

RE: 1.25 - 11/8/2008 2:25:16 PM

HannoMeier

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From: Frankfurt, Germany
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From my point of view, the 4 points are required for the AH, as this forces the TE to guard their sea lanes. Otherwise it will get very unrealistic.

(in reply to Naskra)

Post #: 33

RE: 1.25 - 11/8/2008 4:08:42 PM

OrvalB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanno Meier

From my point of view, the 4 points are required for the AH, as this forces the TE to guard their sea lanes. Otherwise it will get very unrealistic.

True enough, but it is also very unrealistic for the Eastern Med to be effectively shut down for 1914 and sometimes well into 1915, plus a major diversion of TE naval forces, plus a major amount of repair work required once the Austro navy is finally put to bed. I mean protecting your sea-lanes is one thing; having to transfer DNs from Scapa to handle the Austro navy is another.

(in reply to HannoMeier)

Post #: 34

RE: 1.25 - 11/8/2008 4:14:29 PM

OrvalB

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On the transfers to Russia thing, well the game is a bit far from history anyway. The whole idea behind the Gallipoli venture was to open the Black Sea route, because there really wasn't any other effective alternative. And the idea was to swap Russian food for British/French armaments-- Russia was considered to have a substantial food surplus. Which it did; later hunger in Russia had much more to do with the collapse of the economy and rail system than loss of production.

(in reply to OrvalB)

Post #: 35

RE: 1.25 - 11/8/2008 4:31:36 PM

OrvalB

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Oh, and finally, yes the CP should not be able to get past Gibralter. Indeed, the HSF capital ships probably should not be able to function outside of the North Sea and Baltic (raiders, yes, but not DNs and PDs). They were designed to fight there, and did not have the range to operate effectively in the North Atlantic, at least not without say Brest or Cherbourg available. The thought of the HSf sailing en mass down the channel kind of boggles the mind, and there is just no way they could have gotten past Scapa without a full-on Trafalgar type showdown (which was the whole point of the Grand Fleet being at Scapa).

The naval system also takes no account of mines and shore batteries-- the TE lost a number of ships trying (and failing) to force the Dardanelles, and would have lost more if they tried to force their way into the Baltic. By the end of the war, a considerable barrage had been laid down between Scotland and Norway, with some effect on U Boats. But this is probably not feasible to model.

The naval system does a pretty good job of reflecting the realilties of North Sea capital ship conflict, and North Atlantic trade interdiction; but it just gets weird with other naval things. Aside from the Eastern Med, I have had some truly bizzare battles in the North Sea and Baltic as well.

(in reply to OrvalB)

Post #: 36

RE: 1.25 - 11/8/2008 6:15:43 PM

FrankHunter

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OrvalB, in 1.25 I did add a rule barring CP ships from entering or leaving the Med. Although that version is still in a state of flux.

As for mines, they were very important, operationally, but I couldn't decide how to model them strategically with areas so I dropped them from the design.

(in reply to OrvalB)

Post #: 37

RE: 1.25 - 11/8/2008 6:39:20 PM

Naskra

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Naval units can refit at sea.�
Submarines damage, but never sink transports.� (maybe not a bug)
The icon for transports in the naval orders screen is a DN.

oops, wrong thread.

< Message edited by Naskra -- 11/8/2008 7:19:44 PM >

(in reply to FrankHunter)

Post #: 38

RE: 1.25 - 11/8/2008 10:05:37 PM

ILCK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrvalB

True enough, but it is also very unrealistic for the Eastern Med to be effectively shut down for 1914 and sometimes well into 1915, plus a major diversion of TE naval forces, plus a major amount of repair work required once the Austro navy is finally put to bed. I mean protecting your sea-lanes is one thing; having to transfer DNs from Scapa to handle the Austro navy is another.

If the combined Anglo-French forces in the Med could reliably take down the AH navy I'd not have an issue but that AH navy will clean the clock of the French and the PD - DN battle the UK brings is also a sure loser. Usually to put the AH down I have to divert my DN's from the North Sea and then get whacked by a rebuilt German fleet at bad odds in the North Sea.

(in reply to OrvalB)

Post #: 39

RE: 1.25 - 11/9/2008 12:56:12 AM

Hanal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankHunter

OrvalB, in 1.25 I did add a rule barring CP ships from entering or leaving the Med. Although that version is still in a state of flux.

As for mines, they were very important, operationally, but I couldn't decide how to model them strategically with areas so I dropped them from the design.

Frank, could the purchase of mines act as a slight positive modifier for sea battles?

(in reply to FrankHunter)

Post #: 40

RE: 1.25 - 11/9/2008 1:34:40 AM

FrankHunter

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JP Falcon, sort of a "home field" advantage to represent the presence of mines? I think that would work if I had used smaller sea zones such as if the Adriatic and Aegean and so on were separate areas and not all together in big zones like the Eastern Med..

(in reply to Hanal)

Post #: 41

RE: 1.25 - 11/9/2008 8:33:26 AM

hjaco

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Yes that would work and be reasonable but it has to be done with care. Small adjustments won't matter in the great big picture and also be wrong with the usage of large sea areas. Say the German fleet sortied into the North Sea on patrol orders. They would in all likelyhood stay clear of the historic British minefields in the channel and between Scapa Flow and Norway.

I find the solution rather to be a random damage attack of some magnitude if CP force their way between the North Sea and the Atlantic and likewise (and more serious) if the Entente force their way between the North Sea and the Baltic. In the latter case it should be possible then to enter the Baltic from the North Sea as the Entente of course.

Similarly entry through the Eastern Mediterranean and the Black Sea without control of Gallipoli and Constantinopel the damage should be very severe. The Entente lost a couple of Battleships trying that thing (without getting past Constantinopel).

All this would certainly open up for a whole new naval strategic scope like are the British prepared to sacrifice part of their fleet in order to fight their way through with vital food supply to their Russian ally facing riots? Will CP make a showdown battle for control of the Baltic in response or go for intercepting the return in the North Sea after the food have been delivered and before the mine fields will have to be forced again on the return voyage?

(in reply to FrankHunter)

Post #: 42

RE: 1.25 - 11/9/2008 8:41:47 AM

hjaco

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With regard to the Austrian fleet it was deliberate British strategy by Fisher to leave it to the French to control the Mediterranean as the British needed all their DN against the German.

The Entente based a major fleet at Malta which as a 2 sea area port is lacking and with a combination of mine fields and patrolling shut off the Adriatic Sea for good.

The sea area scale of this game does not allow a simulation of this but removing AH ships or historic supply stocks seems not to be solution either.

If you compare the number of DN and nearly DN counting as DN in the folling entries you can see that the AH navy should have 1 1/2 DN which is rather where the problem lies. So perhaps AH should rather have 1 DN and 2 Russian style �ber PD?

http://www.naval-history.net/WW1NavyAustrian.htm

http://www.naval-history.net/WW1NavyFrench.htm

(in reply to hjaco)

Post #: 43

RE: 1.25 - 11/9/2008 8:45:44 AM

hjaco

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hjaco

With regard to the Austrian fleet it was deliberate British strategy by Fisher to leave it to the French to control the Mediterranean as the British needed all their DN against the German.

The Entente based a major fleet at Malta which as a 2 sea area port is lacking and with a combination of mine fields and patrolling shut off the Adriatic Sea for good.

The sea area scale of this game does not allow a simulation of this but removing AH ships or historic supply stocks seems not to be solution either.

If you compare the number of DN and nearly DN counting as DN in the folling entries you can see that the AH navy should have 1 1/2 DN which is rather where the problem lies. So perhaps AH should rather have 1 DN and 2 Russian style �ber PD?

http://www.naval-history.net/WW1NavyAustrian.htm

http://www.naval-history.net/WW1NavyFrench.htm

Oh forgot an important point of mine. The suggested down scaling of the AH fleet will also make it harder for them to wrist contol from the Entente as control is measured in ship points requiring a 3 to 1 ratio with DN counting as 10 points and PD as 5 points (I think?). Austrian fire power would not be that much lower so Entente DN in force would still be required to control the Eastern Mediterranean.

(in reply to hjaco)

Post #: 44

RE: 1.25 - 11/9/2008 2:00:44 PM

Naskra

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Maybe reducing the "quality" value of the AH navy would be a solution. Like others, I have noticed that Austrians
tend to overperform - but only in the Eastern Med - when they fight in West Med, they don't do so well. The intricacies of the combat system are not known to me.

(in reply to hjaco)

Post #: 45

RE: 1.25 - 11/9/2008 7:31:37 PM

FrankHunter

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Certainly the Austrian navy could be tweaked a little by either lowering the ability of her DNs to take damage to represent less actual DNs per counter or by lowering her quality or even by changing a DN to a PD.

(in reply to Naskra)

Post #: 46

RE: 1.25 - 11/9/2008 8:52:33 PM

boogada

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AH had 4 Dreadnoughts so I'd say to have 2DN in the game is real.
The problem of the AH navy was not the weakness of its ships, but the fact that the Adriatic Sea was perfect for warfare with mines and subs. And it could be sealed off even more efficient than the North Sea.

(in reply to FrankHunter)

Post #: 47

RE: 1.25 - 11/12/2008 8:41:01 AM

hjaco

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Lascar and I are currently playing the 1.25.

Is it correct that American send resources to Russia will not arrive now? (unless an sea route through Baltic and Black sea exists)

Transports in the required sea areas through the Baltics and Black sea from Britain is a necessity off course. Is control of those sea areas also required? Is it enough that the sea zone is contested?

(in reply to boogada)

Post #: 48

RE: 1.25 - 11/12/2008 9:02:11 AM

hjaco

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Is it possible to get a display somehow of what amount of raw material, food resource and Industrial capacity a hex contains?

If you don't exactly know it how is a player to know that say Lyon contains raw materials?

In the hex display boxes below the screen there is an empty box in the left side. Perhaps the information could be depicted there in text format when hovering the mouse over the hex in question? Another solution could be a numerical number in the Icons themselves although that does not solve the issue on hexes with Industry and resources.

(in reply to hjaco)

Post #: 49

RE: 1.25 - 11/12/2008 7:08:30 PM

FrankHunter

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The new test version is almost ready, I've overhauled the transfer rules quite a bit for both overseas and overland.

I'll see what I can do about adding the display of resources in a hex.

(in reply to hjaco)

Post #: 50