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mines and subs - 5/1/2002 4:01:10 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, while mines may not have damaged or sunk capital ships check sub's lost and you will find quite a few from both sides lost to mines (often their own) The mine is an anti sub weapon as well as anti ship. Has any play tester had any subs strike a mine?

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Post #: 61
- 5/1/2002 4:21:14 AM   
Crocky


Posts: 417
Joined: 12/4/2001
From: Christchurch New Zealand
Status: offline 		Yep I lost 1 the other day and I think Rick has lost 2 or 3 subs to mines

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Mike Blair CROCKY

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Post #: 62
- 5/1/2002 4:52:26 AM   
MalleusDei

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 4/27/2001
From: Baton Rouge
Status: offline 		If it's left in you will get seriously ahistorical games, and no doubt it will be expolited.

It wasn't a factor. It needs to come out.

(in reply to siRkid)
Post #: 63
mines - 5/1/2002 4:55:41 AM   
jshaniii

 

Posts: 26
Joined: 2/13/2001
From: Albany, New York, USA
Status: offline 		I don't think there's any problem barring ovveruse by the AI.

(in reply to siRkid)
Post #: 64
Mine fields - 5/1/2002 5:05:34 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Where can mines be laid, just in coastal areas? Is there, or should there be, a limit to the number of mines available? The use of mines seems a bit excessive, and is starting to remind me of the ahistorical use of destroyer torpedoes vs. subs in Ultimation's pathetic release "Destroyer Command" on the Eagle/Wolfpack League site. Sounds like the mines should be toned down as the Uber PT Boats were as I've heard no more complaints about PTs gaining sea control vs IJN bombardment groups.

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 65
- 5/1/2002 5:37:42 AM   
Crocky


Posts: 417
Joined: 12/4/2001
From: Christchurch New Zealand
Status: offline 		OK lets explain the situation a bit more about Rick and my game
with regards to mining and let people form there own opinion.

Until I check I would say there have been about 6-8 ships sunk by mine and about 4 subs now the ships that have been sunk are all AP/AK/DD types and these numbers are out of approximately 170 vessels that have gone down. We have probably both been alot more active 120 days into a campaign than historically happened.

The start of the campaign I sent several of my subs oout to lay mines off Port Moresby/Brisbane etc not a problem there try to inflict damage on his merchants and maybe get a bigger fish if Im lucky...

Also move to take Lunga and Tualgi early and proceeded to mine heavily the approaches to these two bases to try and deter the inevitable Allied counter-attack...

Ricks mining to this stage has been mainly around his bases to stop my subs getting to close and in a couple of other cases to stop my bombardment TFs getting at his basesin New Guinea he has also laid some mines in straits where my convoys tend to use and a couple of fields near my bases

The mines near your bases are not a problem you can sweep them at your leisure around enemy bases they create a operational problem in trying to clear them before your TFs or troops can attack the base as Rick found out to his cost

The easiest solution is to route your convoys around known minefields IMHO

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Mike Blair CROCKY

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Post #: 66
- 5/1/2002 6:10:01 AM   
MalleusDei

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 4/27/2001
From: Baton Rouge
Status: offline 		The Japanese COULD have started kamikaze warfare in 1942, if they had chosen to.

Just because a side could have done something is not reason to stick it in the game. In good game design, you only model things in your simulation that had significant effects in real life.

(in reply to siRkid)
Post #: 67
mones again - 5/1/2002 6:25:08 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Well using your philosohy mines should only sink subs merchants DD and Sweepers. (cause they never sank any in WW2)
But then the players could just ignore them and send TF's right on through. I admit you can not prove a negitive, but I would guess mines did in fact influence commanders. They swept enemy mines before allowing areas to be traveled. The real life admirals are very picky about their ships. If the players in the game ignore mines then they have to face the risk. Mines did sink ships (the only US merchants damaged/sunk by mines occured in this theatre. Capital ships have escorts, they are supposed to also look for mines as well as subs. (The ship I was on during Desert Storm did the mine searching for the USS America TF, 2 ships hit mines during Gulf War and we knew they were being used but there were no mine sweepers),
Something that did not happen, but could possibly have happened except for counter measures should be included. Making the players also use the counter measures. Mines did sink ships in the Pacific! Submarines are ships and the most likely to encounter mines since they often try sneaking in where they are present.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to siRkid)
Post #: 68
- 5/1/2002 7:05:25 AM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Crocky
[B]Just looking at the game Rick and I are playing he has established defensive minefields around his major bases in an effort to deter bombardment TFs and subs from coming to close which IMHO is a fair enough use of mines....also there are the odd sub laid minefield around my ports ...so the minesweepers are busy [/B][/QUOTE]

Hey, have you been reading my naval messages?

_____________________________

Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


(in reply to siRkid)
Post #: 69
- 5/1/2002 7:08:13 AM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by MalleusDei
[B]If it's left in you will get seriously ahistorical games, and no doubt it will be expolited.

It wasn't a factor. It needs to come out. [/B][/QUOTE]

You can always make an agrement with anyone you play to linit the use of mines. But it should be left in for those of us who enjoy it.

_____________________________

Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


(in reply to siRkid)
Post #: 70
- 5/1/2002 8:44:10 AM   
Crocky


Posts: 417
Joined: 12/4/2001
From: Christchurch New Zealand
Status: offline 		Finschafen falls

After a month of bombardment from the air the Imperial 65th brigade has finally succumbed to the superior numbers of the allied forces.

Luckily the Imperial Japanese Navy was on had to evacuate 4000 of the 7000 strong brigade the day before the base fell.

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Mike Blair CROCKY

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Post #: 71
Hey kid - 5/1/2002 9:07:49 AM   
boomboom

 

Posts: 80
Joined: 2/28/2002
From: philadelphia
Status: offline 		If I'm playing Japan,I shure as hell what an ahistorcial outcome.My two cents,leave it in.It's a weapon that was used.during that time.To me,it addes to the game.Something your going to have to account for.Use your mines,minesweapers in ahistorcial way,you will get ahistorcial results.
HEY MODERATOR,WHEN YOU GOING TO CHANGE MY USERNAME TO BOOMBOOM?

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I'm boomboom.I don't want to control the sea.I ain't no calvery general[horses stink].I don't want to fight the next world war.I want to go back to dog patch,and fall in love.

(in reply to siRkid)
Post #: 72
Mines - 5/1/2002 1:27:35 PM   
Rob Roberson

 

Posts: 387
Joined: 5/1/2002
Status: offline 		If you are worried about the game being ahistorical then why play. The Japanese lose the war. Any other outcome is ahistorical. Any weapons platform that was available to the combatants should be available in the game. If I sow Ironbottem so full of mines that you can walk across them..so be it. That my decision as the commander. Give me the tools and I will decide how best to employ them.

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Post #: 73
AAAAGGGG - 5/3/2002 9:03:26 AM   
Rob Roberson

 

Posts: 387
Joined: 5/1/2002
Status: offline 		Dont let the debate stop the AAR reporting! I am dying to find out how this goes...:).

(in reply to siRkid)
Post #: 74
Re: AAAAGGGG - 5/3/2002 9:59:47 AM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rob Roberson
[B]Dont let the debate stop the AAR reporting! I am dying to find out how this goes...:). [/B][/QUOTE]

Sorry but I've been tied up with work and family. Also things have slowed down a bit after the huge carrier and land battles. I am off tomorrow so I will bring everything up to date as far as the allies.

Rick

_____________________________

Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


(in reply to siRkid)
Post #: 75
- 5/3/2002 11:37:36 AM   
nelmsm1


Posts: 1041
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: Texas
Status: offline 		I can't wait until that update. I hadn't planned on trying to buy this game until I started reading this thread. Now I am going to have to find out how much my wife really loves me!

(in reply to siRkid)
Post #: 76
- 5/3/2002 12:10:01 PM   
Crocky


Posts: 417
Joined: 12/4/2001
From: Christchurch New Zealand
Status: offline 		Dusk falls and the BB Haruna slips from her mooring along with attending cruisers and destroyers.........Just as she clears the heads of Rabual and starts to make her way into to the Coral Sea towards her destination a loud explosion shakes her from stem to stern. Action stations sounds and the destroyers rush past the stricken battleship searching for her assailant

The destroyers slow a begin to search for the offending submarine suddenly another explosion and one of the DDs comes to a grinding halt the relisation dawns no sub is found and a small spherical object is spotted of the port bow....we had stumbled into a previosly uncharted minefield.

The Admiral surveys the scene and gives the orders to return to port.:(

**** you Rick when did that sub lay that damned minefield:mad:

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Mike Blair CROCKY

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Post #: 77
- 5/3/2002 12:28:43 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		I can see that minesweeping is going to be a major task. I wonder if there is a "minesweeping routine" or something similar? You know, like a mission setting for MS class ships.

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to siRkid)
Post #: 78
- 5/3/2002 12:39:21 PM   
Supervisor

 

Posts: 5166
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]I can see that minesweeping is going to be a major task. I wonder if there is a "minesweeping routine" or something similar? You know, like a mission setting for MS class ships.[/QUOTE]

Would be useful. Sort of a mine patrol of the area surrounding the port/anchorage. Within a set radius (1 maybe?). Be able to set up ship(s) to do automatic, routine sweeps. Possibly even routine sweeps thru designated hexes (straits, etc.)

Automation is nice :) .

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Post #: 79
- 5/3/2002 3:49:55 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Otherwise, I'm gonna forget. Just like I would with submarine patrols, despite how much I enjoy sub ops. I was never any good at aircraft endurances and the like, and forgetting to bring them home (subs) and have them die out there through their own lack of initiative to return to base would and could ruin a well played game up to that point. As if all MS ships would neglect their duty, not all are named the Caine and have a paranoid nut like Queeg in command worried more about strawberries than the harbor approaches.:p

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 80
12.7 Mine Warfare - 5/3/2002 9:09:04 PM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline 		Minefields are created by DM, ML and SS ships laying a minefield. Multiple minefields can exist in the same hex, and whenever a TF enters a hex with minefields, each minefield in the hex has a chance of causing damage to the ships in the TF. As minefields are detected, the chance they will do damage to enemy Task Forces declines. The greater the number of mines in a minefield,
the greater the chance a mine will hit an enemy ship (there is a small chance that a ship will hit a friendly minefield, but this is very unlikely). Whenever a DMS or MSW ship enters a hex with an enemy minefield, it attempts to clear the minefield by destroying the mines (they can also clear minefields in adjacent hexes if they are patrolling in a Mine Warfare TF).

From the Manual

I would like to add that a red dot appears on the screen once you discover an enemy mine field. You can not forget about them.

Rick

_____________________________

Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


(in reply to siRkid)
Post #: 81
- 5/3/2002 9:49:19 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Excellent. Like Dr. Evil says, "Toss me a frikken bone, here. I need the info." Dots are good. Dedicated mine warfare TFs do the job automatically is good too.:)

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 82
US Update - 5/3/2002 10:19:23 PM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline 		Background: During the battle for Guadalcanal the Japanese (Crocky) pounded the Allied fleet (Me) as it approached the island. Several things drove my strategy. From recon I knew Crocky had 3 coastal defense units on the island and I knew the island was ringed with mines. I decided to land my forces to the east of Lunga, establish a base of operations, and then march on the Lunga. Knowing that I would take heavy loses I made the decision to make one large drive to get my forces ashore. I took several turns to assemble 5 large transport fleets. Three of these carried troops and supplies and the other two just supplies. One fleet carried the Marine Raiders and Paratroopers destined for Tulagi. At the time Crocky and I were battling over Finschafen in New Guinea. I had hoped his air groups would be focused in that area. Up until this point I had been losing about 2:1 in ships. I was down 2 carriers and Crocky had only had 2 damaged. Unwilling to risk my remaining carriers I keep them in port.
Well the first turn I sailed, everything went ok. Only one transport fleet was sighted and attacked. It was at this point that the American Press announced the invasion was on (I posted it on this board). Crocky quickly assembled his carriers and sent them to rain hell down on my fleet. For two turns in a row I lost an average of 20 ships per turn. Fearing that I was losing the game I ordered my carriers to sea. I took one extra turn to position them to the SE knowing that my transports were paying the price. Part of my plan was to weaken his carrier Sqs by flack and operational loses (he didn‘t punch me in the nose I hit his fist with my nose). Well for whatever reason the big carrier battle went totally in my favor. Several Jap carriers were sunk or severely damaged. This put the game back on an even keel. I lost over 90 transports and other ships during this operation, but in the end Guadalcanal and Tulagi were mine. Crocky pulled out some of his troops so the battle for the islands only lasted a few turns.

Current Situation:

Russell Island - I took the Marines on Tulagi and loaded them up on three transports that were half sunk. I like to picture that in my head. Me looking a hard nose Marine Col and telling him he had to load his men and equipment on three ships that were still on fire and listing to port. I figured if I struck quickly at Russell Island I could take it by surprise. Well I lost a ship getting my men ashore and the defenders were too strong to be routed, but they are to weak to push me back into the sea. Right now we are at a stand off. Lucky for the marines they are now receiving air support from Lunga.

Wasp - I sent the Wasp on a raiding mission just below Truk hoping to slip in under the weather and sink some merchants. To tell you the truth I wanted some revenge. Well the carrier was spotted and Crocky sent a TF after it. It was damaged by carrier air attacks as it fled the area and has been sent back to Pearl for repairs.

Shortland - At the same time the Wasp was moving north I finally got a BB and sent it to bombard the Shortland base. This was risky because it is so close to Rabaul and its 80 Betty bombers. I took a turn to position the TF so it could get in and out in one turn (we are playing two day turns). Well I think I caught Crocky by surprise. I severely damage the airfield and destroyed many aircraft on the ground. Flushed with victory - frankly I was more excited that I pulled this off than I was over taking Lunga - I foolishly tried it again. Never try the same tactic twice on Crocky. This time the attack was driven off with several hit on my BB.

Gilli GillI - I tried to send a combat TF to Gilli Gilli so I could fend off the bombardment missions the Japs were sending up and down the coast of New Guinea. Well no sooner had they arrived then the 80 bombers form Rabaul sent them to the bottom or limping back to a safer port.

New Guinea - I had to let New Guinea suffer while the Guadalcanal operations were underway. I am now devoting 90% of my resources to re-supply the area. With the loss of so many transports, I can not focus on more than one area at a time. This will change as more ships arrive in the theater. I control every base except for Wewak, Madang, and Saido. As I write this, Crocky and I are engaged in a battle for air supremacy over New Guinea. I took all my B17s and long range bombers and stationed them in Cooktown. From there I am bombing the airfield at Mandang. I am also using my bombers stationed in New Guinea to bomb any airfield in range. Crocky is attacking the air fields at Pory Moresby and Lae. I must say that when his 80 Betty bomber attack my airfields they do a lot of damage. On occasion my fields have been shut down completely until I can repair them. I have lost a lot of planes on the ground.

To sum things up, naval operations have slowed down while air operations have increased. Land operations have switched from offensive to consolidation of territory gained. Submarine activity remains constant.

Ok this should bring everything up to date.

Rick

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Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


(in reply to siRkid)
Post #: 83
Wow. - 5/3/2002 10:41:26 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		In real life, Kid would be facing a firing squad.:D Maybe your nickname should be Banzai!:D Your going through units like I go through pints.;)

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 84
- 5/3/2002 10:47:07 PM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		Send your Aussie ground units to take Wewak! We did it last time, and we can do it again!:D Great post!

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Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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Post #: 85
Re: Wow. - 5/3/2002 11:08:16 PM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ron Saueracker
[B]In real life, Kid would be facing a firing squad.:D Maybe your nickname should be Banzai!:D Your going through units like I go through pints.;) [/B][/QUOTE]

This is true, but it makes for an exciting game,:D

_____________________________

Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


(in reply to siRkid)
Post #: 86
Uninformed question :) - 5/4/2002 7:49:49 AM   
Rob Roberson

 

Posts: 387
Joined: 5/1/2002
Status: offline 		Love the AAR it is something I look forward to everyday. If, your intent was to draw the carriers out...why load those transports up with troops? I think you would of been shot for all the shark food you provided... not for attempting to lure the enemy into battle. Either way it worked well and sounds like the game is even again....keep posting.

(in reply to siRkid)
Post #: 87
- 5/4/2002 8:08:14 AM   
Crocky


Posts: 417
Joined: 12/4/2001
From: Christchurch New Zealand
Status: offline 		Looks like Rick has decided that Shortland poses to much of a threat....both carriers and surface TF go after it this turn..will let him see his turn ......dont want to spoil his fun....before further reports

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Mike Blair CROCKY

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Post #: 88
Re: Uninformed question :) - 5/5/2002 2:50:33 AM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rob Roberson
[B]Love the AAR it is something I look forward to everyday. If, your intent was to draw the carriers out...why load those transports up with troops? I think you would of been shot for all the shark food you provided... not for attempting to lure the enemy into battle. Either way it worked well and sounds like the game is even again....keep posting. [/B][/QUOTE]

My intent was never to use the transports as bait. I decided to deploy my carriers only after two days of heavy loses. I was face with a choice. Send my carriers straight in, in which case they would come under attack from Rabaul as well as the carriers, or let the transports take it for one more day while I move around to the SE. Wanting to protect my carriers at all cost I chose the second option. I consoled myself by believing Crocky would lose some plane during that one day delay.

Rick

_____________________________

Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


(in reply to siRkid)
Post #: 89
- 5/5/2002 8:15:18 AM   
Rob Roberson

 

Posts: 387
Joined: 5/1/2002
Status: offline 		Ah so you sent your surface groups out without air cover... :) you should face a firing squad. . I state now for all those that I ever pbem with. I will never send surface groups out with out some form of air cover.

:)

(in reply to siRkid)
Post #: 90
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