RE: Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status

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RE: Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status - 11/14/2008 12:42:05 PM

JudgeDredd

Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
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Well, in the words of Adam, I must be one with no brain, no commonsense and the inability to think for myself, being as I disagree with Tevans6220...mmm...

However, the point I was making wasn't kissing their arse. It was in DIRECT response to something that doesn't happen in the software industry...period.

You may think it does, but there are laws that counter laws that counter laws and the end of it is, the guy down the bottom, for whatever reason, doesn't get jack. This is particularly the case in the world of software. Just look at your legel right (in Europe at least) to be allowed to make a physical copy of your purchased software for your own use, completely trumped by copyright law!!!

Anyway, it was more to do with the fact that they have made a public apology and offered a refund. So you think they released it early. Who is to say the Beta testers did not report all ok??? AGEOD may have been aware of some "minor" issues prior to release as is almost always the case with new games, but seldom are games "knowingly" released with game breaking bugs.

My instinct tells me they were unaware of the main show stopping bugs, for whatever reason.

Regardless of what I think. AGEOD is a company that generally makes/publishes quality software and takes care of their software after release. I expect this will be no exception.

But that is all my opinion, and of course you are entitled yours. I'd just rather people wouldn't brand "one group" of people with a brush simply because "the other group" fits their requirements...Adam.

(in reply to sterckxe)

Post #: 31

RE: Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status - 11/14/2008 12:52:46 PM

sterckxe

Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stwa

quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker
Actually, Eddy going on the warranty included with AGEOD's ACW, AGEOD does not include the standard software clause that protects the company from faulty code.

Actually that standard clause is totally bogus and is totally trumped by European Union consumer laws anyway. The thing is that nobody takes a games developer to court, with all the costs/time involved in doing so, if the most you can get in damages is the price of the game itself.

That's right, it would be like trying to sue Pizza hut for a couple of lousy pizzas. But, if you could prove substantial psychological damages (shouldn't be too tough), then maybe you could drain a little cash out of em.

I don't know about other countries but "moral damages" awarded by courts over here are usually for the substantial amount of 1 euro - no kidding - as to other kinds of damage : you'll have to prove a) actual damage and b) a causal link between that damage and the product. In the case of Pizza hut their lawyer would probably claim you were insane *before* you went and got a pizza there ... and win the case

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to Stwa)

Post #: 32

RE: Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status - 11/14/2008 12:53:45 PM

JudgeDredd

Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220
... As you said it's totally meaningless in the game software world but they better wake up. The gaming industry needs me a whole lot more than I need them.

Exactly why I and others recognised what they did....they went against the norm and came clean. Fine...bash away because it's what you expect, but you don't get that in the software world...and tbh, if people carry on acting this way, it probably won't happen again. What would be the point of issuing an official apology and promise of patches or refund if your going to get the same god damned headache you'd have gotten without doing such.

And as Eddie said...it just doesn't happen in the world of software. I agree with you it should, but it doesn't.

(in reply to tevans6220)

Post #: 33

RE: Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status - 11/14/2008 1:03:39 PM

Adam Parker

Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
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Aw wasn't directed at you Judge

Good riposte above though in that first line

Hell - and in all this we get side-tracked from remembering that this should just be a game, that should be allowing us to pit our comfy chair-bound strategic minds, across an event memorialized this week of such epic magnitude in human carnage, that this whole game-quality debate becomes ludicrously sureal.

So shamedly unncecessary. That's what the apology should be for.

Lest We Forget.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 34

RE: Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status - 11/14/2008 1:32:15 PM

JudgeDredd

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No I know Adam.

I just thought it was worthy of recognising the Communique for what it was...aomething that just doesn't happen in the world of Software.

I do agree that it should happen...but it doesn't and I thought it was worth appluading him for "stating the expected" if not the obvious.

(in reply to Adam Parker)

Post #: 35

RE: Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status - 11/14/2008 2:02:06 PM

tevans6220

Posts: 223
Joined: 9/3/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220
... As you said it's totally meaningless in the game software world but they better wake up. The gaming industry needs me a whole lot more than I need them.

Exactly why I and others recognised what they did....they went against the norm and came clean. Fine...bash away because it's what you expect, but you don't get that in the software world...and tbh, if people carry on acting this way, it probably won't happen again. What would be the point of issuing an official apology and promise of patches or refund if your going to get the same god damned headache you'd have gotten without doing such.

And as Eddie said...it just doesn't happen in the world of software. I agree with you it should, but it doesn't.

Who's bashing? All I'm saying is you don't praise failure or mediocrity. Going against the norm and coming clean doesn't change what happened. They released a game that wasn't ready for release. Ageod is a good bunch of guys but they don't walk on water and in this case they screwed the pooch. While their communique and offer of refund might seem classy to you, I see it as nothing but C.Y.A. They want to protect their reputation for future sales. Nothing wrong with that but I refuse to praise them for it. I don't really see where they did anything that went above and beyond. They screwed up and no amount of apologies, assurances or offers of refunds can change that. Do you know why the gaming industry is the way that it is? It's because people accept it. When you accept garbage, garbage is all you're going to get.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 36

RE: Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status - 11/14/2008 2:36:17 PM

sterckxe

Posts: 4605
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From: Flanders
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
What would be the point of issuing an official apology and promise of patches or refund if your going to get the same god damned headache you'd have gotten without doing such.

Exactly.

Everyone promises patches - promises are cheap - but no-one in living memory ever offered a refund and publicly apologized for a fubar'ed release.

Protect their good name ? No doubt that's part of the equation made, but if it's that obvious and easy : why aren't other developers/publishers doing it as well ? Most will go into a "state of denial" where people complaining about the game are either ridiculed or ignored until they go away.

If now nobody stands up and basically says that although the release was a fubar, publicly admitting a screw-up is a class act, than what's the point of doing it if it only attracts *more* flak coming your way instead of less ?

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 37

RE: Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status - 11/14/2008 2:40:05 PM

sterckxe

Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220
All I'm saying is you don't praise failure or mediocrity.

The distinction we seem to make and you don't is that we don't praise the failure, but the act of publicly admitting it was a failure. Major difference.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220
I don't really see where they did anything that went above and beyond.

So in that case I don't doubt that you can give us plenty of examples of developers with fubar'ed releases who did the same.

Waiting for that huge list ...

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to tevans6220)

Post #: 38

RE: Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status - 11/14/2008 2:47:37 PM

JudgeDredd

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From: Scotland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220
... As you said it's totally meaningless in the game software world but they better wake up. The gaming industry needs me a whole lot more than I need them.

Exactly why I and others recognised what they did....they went against the norm and came clean. Fine...bash away because it's what you expect, but you don't get that in the software world...and tbh, if people carry on acting this way, it probably won't happen again. What would be the point of issuing an official apology and promise of patches or refund if your going to get the same god damned headache you'd have gotten without doing such.

And as Eddie said...it just doesn't happen in the world of software. I agree with you it should, but it doesn't.

Who's bashing? All I'm saying is you don't praise failure or mediocrity. Going against the norm and coming clean doesn't change what happened. They released a game that wasn't ready for release. Ageod is a good bunch of guys but they don't walk on water and in this case they screwed the pooch. While their communique and offer of refund might seem classy to you, I see it as nothing but C.Y.A. They want to protect their reputation for future sales. Nothing wrong with that but I refuse to praise them for it. I don't really see where they did anything that went above and beyond. They screwed up and no amount of apologies, assurances or offers of refunds can change that. Do you know why the gaming industry is the way that it is? It's because people accept it. When you accept garbage, garbage is all you're going to get.

Ok...bashing was the wrong choice of word

You've made your opinion clear and that's fine. I was just trying to explain why I said what I said.

And I don't accept garbage.

(in reply to tevans6220)

Post #: 39

RE: Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status - 11/14/2008 3:11:03 PM

Erik Rutins

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Guys, I'd like to clarify one thing here. As far as I know, AGEOD did not know about the vast majority of these issues before release. For whatever reason, they didn't come up in pre-release testing. While they did try hard to make the November 11th Release, I'm confident they would have waited longer if they had known.

With that said, I know they are working hard to fix these as quickly as possible post-release. Computers and programming being what they are, I think it's equally important to have good post-release support as good pre-release testing.

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Post #: 40

RE: Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status - 11/14/2008 5:53:09 PM

elmo3

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Offering a refund is certainly the right thing to do. I'll be willing to take another look at the game after a couple of patches and the detailed manual are out. Getting past the idea of North being to the left will be my problem at that point. It boggles the mind that any real world map would be made that way.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 41

RE: Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status - 11/14/2008 7:28:27 PM

SlickWilhelm

Posts: 1854
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From: Rochester, MN
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quote:

I tend to look at the world in terms of what it should be and not what it is ...

Yes, I think this is the crux of the issue between the two opposing camps in this thread. I understand your position, I just don't agree with it. :)

Those of us who are giving AGEOD the benefit of the doubt are doing so because they came clean and admitted that they "screwed the pooch". From my understanding of the explanation from the Italian development team who actually coded the game, the major problem with the game, the "big freeze", was a compatibility issue with certain CPU's....something that the beta testers missed because nobody was using those particular CPU's.

If you take that "show stopper" problem out of the release, it probably would've been your typical first release with assorted bugs that would be resolved with the usual patches.

I test software for a living, so I'm familiar with this type of situation. It takes a lot of time and capital to be able to do all the testing you want to do. Consequently, nobody ever seems to get enough testing in before the decision is made to release the product. Much of the time, the decision to release the game is made because of other "business" reasons.

I'm not condoning releasing software to meet a deadline when it has known "show stopper" defects. But it seems to me in this case that the show stopper was missed due to incomplete hardware testing coverage. I can certainly understand how that happens. It's very expensive to test every conceivable hardware combination.

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Post #: 42

RE: Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status - 11/14/2008 7:34:49 PM

NefariousKoel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm

Those of us who are giving AGEOD the benefit of the doubt are doing so because they came clean and admitted that they "screwed the pooch". From my understanding of the explanation from the Italian development team who actually coded the game, the major problem with the game, the "big freeze", was a compatibility issue with certain CPU's....something that the beta testers missed because nobody was using those particular CPU's.

I'm glad AGEOD is doing the right thing and I'm keeping my eye on this game.

One thing that sometimes amazes me is when beta testers aren't chosen well at all. Definitely the case, here, since there's only two possible processor manufacturers out there. Did all the testers have similar computers? That's not good. There needs to be a wide range of specs for testing.

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Post #: 43

RE: Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status - 11/14/2008 8:13:55 PM

fvianello

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Had I known it is developed by an Italian team, I'd have never bought it......No, I'm not joking AND I'm Italian.

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Post #: 44

RE: Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status - 11/14/2008 11:58:33 PM

kengir1954

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I'm amazed at the number of folks expressing surprise and dismay that a new game is buggy. Aren't they all? I can't recall a single game by ANY company that hasn't had problems with the first release. I made it my policy 10 YEARS AGO not to buy any computer game (wargames, sims, sports, whatever) until at least a year after it is first released. (For Silent Hunter III, I actually waited almost three years). The only exception is where the game is based on a previous design (e.g. a new Squad Battles title from HPS Simulations).

It's never a question of whether a new game is buggy. Rather, it's a question of HOW buggy the game is. AGEOD's "World War One" apparently falls into the very buggy category. But people should not be shocked that the initial version has problems. It's that way with all games and has been for a long time.

(in reply to fvianello)

Post #: 45

RE: Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status - 11/15/2008 12:09:07 AM

Terminus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HanBarca

Had I known it is developed by an Italian team, I'd have never bought it......No, I'm not joking AND I'm Italian.

Well, they can't make helicopter transmissions, trains or ammunition, why should they be able to make computer games?

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(in reply to fvianello)

Post #: 46

RE: Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status - 11/15/2008 1:20:00 AM

ETF

Posts: 1748
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Well lets how this puppy gets a patch next week or I'm afraid that I will have to take them up on their honrouable mention of a refund. I take Matrix games is honouring this refund also correct?

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Post #: 47

RE: Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status - 11/15/2008 11:26:16 AM

Krasny

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quote:

Had I known it is developed by an Italian team, I'd have never bought it......No, I'm not joking AND I'm Italian.

I had similar thoughts.

I did not post them because it would have made me sound like a bit of a bigot.

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Post #: 48

RE: Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status - 11/15/2008 1:25:17 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
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From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ETF
I take Matrix games is honouring this refund also correct?

Yes, we'll honor it as well.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to ETF)

Post #: 49

RE: Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status - 11/16/2008 12:35:02 PM

Stwa

Posts: 484
Joined: 8/12/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stwa

quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker
Actually, Eddy going on the warranty included with AGEOD's ACW, AGEOD does not include the standard software clause that protects the company from faulty code.

Actually that standard clause is totally bogus and is totally trumped by European Union consumer laws anyway. The thing is that nobody takes a games developer to court, with all the costs/time involved in doing so, if the most you can get in damages is the price of the game itself.

That's right, it would be like trying to sue Pizza hut for a couple of lousy pizzas. But, if you could prove substantial psychological damages (shouldn't be too tough), then maybe you could drain a little cash out of em.

I don't know about other countries but "moral damages" awarded by courts over here are usually for the substantial amount of 1 euro - no kidding - as to other kinds of damage : you'll have to prove a) actual damage and b) a causal link between that damage and the product. In the case of Pizza hut their lawyer would probably claim you were insane *before* you went and got a pizza there ... and win the case

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

No doubt. Here's you ONE Euro. Dont' blow it all at the same place.

Actually though, the last time Pizza Hut was sued here in the states, their attorneys were able to introduce 30 large combination pizzas into evidence during the trial. It would be an understatement to say that when this occurred, the trial ground to a halt.

(in reply to sterckxe)

Post #: 50

RE: Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status - 11/16/2008 5:42:12 PM

PDiFolco

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Joined: 10/11/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HanBarca

Had I known it is developed by an Italian team, I'd have never bought it......No, I'm not joking AND I'm Italian.

Ah ,another Italian shameful of its kin ... I can understand that, they actually voted for Berlusconi

! I'm from an Italian father, btw.

But here the reality is the Italian guy in the team is the lead programmer (that made GI before), and blaming its genes for the problems is gross (berlusconian ?

)

(in reply to fvianello)

Post #: 51

RE: Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status - 11/16/2008 8:37:30 PM

fvianello

Posts: 534
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From: Italy
Status: offline

I know Italians better than you

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Post #: 52

RE: Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status - 11/17/2008 9:05:00 AM

GShock

Posts: 1245
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From: San Francisco, CA - USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco

Ah ,another Italian shameful of its kin ... I can understand that, they actually voted for Berlusconi ! I'm from an Italian father, btw.

You will hardly find an italian who's proud to be italian in Italy...and this has nothing to do with Berlusconi who is no better or worse than those who preceded him since the birth of the "republic".

Ask your father to go here: http://www.report.rai.it/R2_HPprogramma/0,,243,00.html
Have him watch the video report called "Mare Nostrum".

Sorry for the digression, this is no place for politics, i know, but i thought it good to have Di Falco's father bless the day he left Italy (which is coming for me too).

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Post #: 53

RE: Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status - 11/17/2008 9:46:29 PM

PDiFolco

Posts: 1200
Joined: 10/11/2004
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Yeah sure, maybe descendency from Italian emigrants have a more romantic view of Italy, the ancient pride of the great Roman Empire, and so on...
Indeed my father's family left Italy in the late 50s out of poverty and no good future coming in the Abruzzi region.
But even if the country is in shambles, there still may be some talented programmers, artists, fashionists, and cooks in Italy !

< Message edited by PDiFolco -- 11/17/2008 9:50:05 PM >

(in reply to GShock)

Post #: 54

RE: Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status - 11/18/2008 4:01:50 PM

Montbrun

Posts: 1498
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Status: offline

Guys.

Anyone with experience with AGEOD knows that they are a top-tier gaming design outfit. The Devs are responsive to problems, and fixes come in an unbelievably short time frame. All you have to do is visit their boards, and you'll see this.

As for WWI, the vast majority of the known issues have been corrected with the 1.04 patch. Another patch will be coming in December to add some enhancements.

(in reply to PDiFolco)

Post #: 55

RE: Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status - 11/18/2008 7:48:49 PM

tran505

Posts: 133
Joined: 11/11/2007
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Wow -- what an active thread! My 2-cents ---

-- I don't like games that are released too early, however....

-- I can't count the times this has happened before where I spent my money, and the company basically left me to select the largest hammer and pile of sand I could find and invited me to pound sand to my heart's content. So, I am pleased the company has assumed responsibility.

-- And..., I actually do want the game rather than my money back. So, if the company is willing to fix and improve the product, I am willing to hang in there.

Finally, let us remember how small a fishbowl we are swimming in. How many companies are out there spending green money on developing historical computer-based wargames, caring enough to polish them beyond 1995 video standards, developing passable (at times even challenging AI's), and standing behind what they sell until they get it right? Not many. No, we do not "owe" our support to bad companies with bad products, but AGEOD's track record to date clearly separates them from that crowd.

Again, my 2-cents....

- P

(in reply to Montbrun)

Post #: 56