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Allied Oil Requirements - 11/13/2008 4:49:24 PM   
canadaexile

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 10/26/2005
From: Halifax Canada
Status: offline 		Quick question on a stock scenario (15)
Do you still have to supply the allied bases with oil.
I thought that it was on auto (Allied production On) but when I checked some bases it said that they required some oil!
Could someone direct me to the ref in the manual or the forum
Cheers
Post #: 1
RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/13/2008 6:50:21 PM   
engineer

 

Posts: 590
Joined: 9/8/2006
Status: offline 		On the Japanese side oil is combined with resources to get HI points that fuel their whole production chain.  On the Allied side, there are various HI locations on the map (India, China, Singapore, Oz, the US left coast, etc) where resources and oil combine to create supply and fuel.  However, the lion's share of supply and fuel come from fixed supply points in the USA, Bombay, and Karachi.

In the early game it is usually useful to try and evacuate as many resources and oil as possible out of the DEI to help run the Australian industry.  Australia has plenty of domestic resources so shipping oil to Australia leverages your merchant marine since one point of oil will then be run by the factories there to create a point of fuel and supply. 

However, on-map production of supply and fuel is very much a "second-order" effect on the over-all Allied war effort. 

(in reply to canadaexile)
Post #: 2
RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/13/2008 7:29:02 PM   
canadaexile

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 10/26/2005
From: Halifax Canada
Status: offline 		So you are saying that it is a waste of time sending oil from america or India to Australia

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Post #: 3
RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/13/2008 7:42:02 PM   
Oldguard1970

 

Posts: 578
Joined: 7/19/2006
From: Hiawassee, GA
Status: offline 		Not quite... You want to send about a tanker a month of oil from the USA to Eastern Australia and another tanker every few months to Perth.  (I'm not sure about how often Perth needs oil.)

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Post #: 4
RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/13/2008 8:40:23 PM   
Barb


Posts: 2503
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		I just made some calculations and get some numbers on US mainland production in stock scenario:

In USA mainland in stock scenario you produce 880 oil points /day than you need for your production.
Australia is 2400 oil points / day short for production.
India is 1855 oil points /day short for production.

It is VERY usefull to get out every oil point you can of Sumatra (+6000/day), Java(+1200/day) and Borneo(+4800/day).

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Post #: 5
RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/14/2008 11:24:45 AM   
canadaexile

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 10/26/2005
From: Halifax Canada
Status: offline 		Thanks for all the info - I took all the fuel/supply that I could muster out of PI but didn't take any oil.
Didn't even think about it. I didn't even think about oil for India either, so thats a useful bit of info.
I am now trying to build a tanker task force to take oil to Australia, but after this bit of advice I may well have to split it and carry on to India.
Cheers

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Post #: 6
RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/14/2008 1:53:37 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Barb is right, though I wouldn't bother moving Oil to India. The Allies don't need to create HI points, so the only thing you need OIL for is to make supplies and fuel.

India should have more than enough of both, so don't bother moving Oil there.

Australia is another story. You need to build supply/fuel stocks there, so moving Oil is a good idea.

Moving it out of the SRA while you can is a great idea, even if for no other reason than you don't want the Japs to get it.

RE: India, you should in fact be thinking of loading supplies and fuel in Karachi and sending that to Australia while you can. You start with more merchant shipping up there than you need in awhile, and plenty of supply/fuel; you may as well start sending some to Australia loaded with valuable supply/fuel.

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 11/14/2008 1:56:53 PM >

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RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/14/2008 3:36:25 PM   
engineer

 

Posts: 590
Joined: 9/8/2006
Status: offline 		I largely agree with Q-ball and Barb.  I would recommend oil to Australia rather than India since Australia doesn't have any intrinsic supply/fuel sources like Karachi and Bombay.  My experience is that these sources provide plenty of logistics for the Allies in India.  Australia just gets the spill off from their resources, and the production of the small oil field at Perth.  They can defend, but there's no fuel for offensive operations in the Solomons or the DEI.  That's where a tanker of oil is more use than a tanker of fuel since the oil can be processed by the Australian industry to generate a point of supply plus a point of fuel.  

When you push things farther than that, then you start to run into places where the abstractions in WitP radically depart from reality.  Elsewhere in the Forum someone pointed out that Australia only had one refinery that was shut down for the duration shortly after the war started so the WitP industrial system doesn't fit Australia's WW2 reality.  Instead of working off of imported crude, Australia's economy ran off of imported refined petroleum proucts.  Also, the USA had a breath-taking share of world oil production in the 1940s and California by itself produced more oil than the DEI.  The US oil exports to Japan stopped in the summer of 1941 so the supply and infrastructure to provide much higher oil exports from the US would have been there if the US wanted to do it when the war broke out on 12/7/41.   

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Post #: 8
RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/15/2008 4:38:42 PM   
hbrsvl

 

Posts: 1155
Joined: 10/2/2002
Status: offline 		Q-Ball-A further question. When I load oil in the DEI, where do I send it?Darwin, Broome, etc.?

Or does it have to go to Brisbane, Sydney, etc.?

Thanks, Hugh Browne

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Post #: 9
RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/15/2008 6:33:36 PM   
Barb


Posts: 2503
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		Take it to cities which have HI and no Oil

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Post #: 10
RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/15/2008 9:27:41 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		A good start is to take it from the DEI to Perth and stockpile it there. Your tankers will be able to get back the the oilfields more quickly in order to suck more oil from those locations before they fall to the Japanese, and you can later then ship it form Perth to Melbourne and Sydney.

You need to stockpile it at a base that has either resources or oil, as a quirk of the game prevents you form loading oil at a base that has no oil or resource production (please, somebody correct me if it needs to be a base that has oil production and not just one that has only resource production).

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fair winds,
Brad

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Post #: 11
RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/16/2008 3:20:21 AM   
Gem35


Posts: 3420
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline 		Darwin isnt a bad idea either. Just be sure to build up the port.
Stock the oil there and distribute it to sydney and melbourne.

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Post #: 12
RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/16/2008 3:24:42 AM   
Gem35


Posts: 3420
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline 		Amboina and there is another base near there, can't remember the name, are oil producers as well.

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It doesn't make any sense, Admiral. Were we better than the Japanese or just luckier?


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Post #: 13
RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/16/2008 3:30:17 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		The problem with storing oil at Amboina or Darwin is that in a PBEM those ports are likely to be either captured by your opponent or blockaded so that you can't transfer the oil to SE Oz where it is needed. This is why Perth is my choice for a forward depot. 

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fair winds,
Brad

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Post #: 14
RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/16/2008 2:53:13 PM   
khyberbill


Posts: 1941
Joined: 9/11/2007
From: new milford, ct
Status: offline 		I thought that oil might be transferred by the AI from Darwin to where it is needed in Australia?


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Post #: 15
RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/16/2008 3:26:03 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

I thought that oil might be transferred by the AI from Darwin to where it is needed in Australia?


Nope - what goes to Darwin STAYS in Darwin... the AI will NOT move oil or resources out in either CHS or stock WITP afaik... you have to move it by ship, which can be highly problematic.

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Post #: 16
RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/16/2008 7:15:10 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		Darwin is too far away from the industries in SE Australia to move the oil overland. This is why you need to ship it by sea. 

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fair winds,
Brad

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Post #: 17
RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/16/2008 7:38:26 PM   
khyberbill


Posts: 1941
Joined: 9/11/2007
From: new milford, ct
Status: offline 		I have been shipping the oil from Darwin to Sydney because the port isn't under threat...yet. Now I will expedite the moving it all there. The only reason the oil is there was to deny my opponent the oil . I am able to bring enough supply/fuel in from the US.

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Post #: 18
RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/17/2008 1:13:30 PM   
turkey


Posts: 92
Joined: 3/1/2004
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		Hi. I'm playing allies in the full scenario, latest mod and I've been taking out all the oil I can from DEI and shipping to Darwin.

At first (based on the manual) I expected the rail network to redistribute the oil from Darwin to the HI centres in Aus. Now - mid Feb 42 - I'm not sure that this is happening to any noticeable degree, despite the fact that all HI centres have zero oil.

Do I need to onward ship in tankers or will the rail network eventually relocate my oil stockpiles to where it is needed?

I've also been sucking out resources as fast as possible both for my own manufacturing and to deny my oponent and now have quite substantial reserves in both India and Aus. Given that this game is going to be a long haul and crippling Japanese manufacturing capacity will speed the inevitable, which is most valuable commodity to the Japanese war effort: the oil or the resources? If they don't need the resources I'm stealing away from DEI I will abandon this operation and reduce the training I'm giving to my opponents’ Betties and Nells.

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Post #: 19
RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/17/2008 3:04:40 PM   
rtrapasso


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Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: turkey

Hi. I'm playing allies in the full scenario, latest mod and I've been taking out all the oil I can from DEI and shipping to Darwin.

At first (based on the manual) I expected the rail network to redistribute the oil from Darwin to the HI centres in Aus. Now - mid Feb 42 - I'm not sure that this is happening to any noticeable degree, despite the fact that all HI centres have zero oil.

Do I need to onward ship in tankers or will the rail network eventually relocate my oil stockpiles to where it is needed?

I've also been sucking out resources as fast as possible both for my own manufacturing and to deny my oponent and now have quite substantial reserves in both India and Aus. Given that this game is going to be a long haul and crippling Japanese manufacturing capacity will speed the inevitable, which is most valuable commodity to the Japanese war effort: the oil or the resources? If they don't need the resources I'm stealing away from DEI I will abandon this operation and reduce the training I'm giving to my opponents’ Betties and Nells.


As stated above - you need to move any oil or resources ship to Darwin by ship... the rail network will not move them (and in reality, there was no rail network connecting Darwin to the rest of Australia... at least part of the link was by road... this is reflected in Andrew Brown's maps in CHS, etc.)

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Post #: 20
RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/17/2008 5:03:03 PM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
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From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: turkey

Hi. I'm playing allies in the full scenario, latest mod and I've been taking out all the oil I can from DEI and shipping to Darwin.



Not sure which scenario you are playing. Do you mean stock (Scenario 15) or a mod such as CHS 155?

I stock, it ill be distributed but shouldn't, no railway from Darwin. In CHS in won't as rtrapasso said, part of its a road through Alice, and track through Cloncurry. You must ship it.

I can't remember stock, its been over a year since I did but in IMO in my lastest CHS as Japan it's resources that are the priority. Oil I seem to have lots off, in fact I said this in an ealier thread, I don't have enough TKs to ship it all.




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Post #: 21
RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/17/2008 6:28:25 PM   
engineer

 

Posts: 590
Joined: 9/8/2006
Status: offline 		In stock, the Japanese will be limited by oil. Taking the SRA you will end up with 2300 to 2500 oil field points that will give you 13800 to 15000 oil per turn.  You can probably capture about 17000 resource points in the historical Japanese conquests.  You can get more by expanding into China or a successful offensive into India or Australia.  Your HI starts around 12000+ so there is head room for you to expand your industry partway toward the oil cap.  I wouldn't take expanding HI all the way since eventually the Allies are likely to cut off the Home Islands from the SRA so you'll need an oil stockpile in the Home Islands to continue your industry until the clock runs out.  A lot has to do with how quickly and effectively you overrun the Allied defenses so they don't have a chance to demolish the mines and wells before you occupy them. So you have a little room to increase industry, but you should have several thousand surplus resources per day coming into your economy.  EDIT: Those surplus points can be useful as a forward supply dump since they spawn supplies at 1% of the resource stockpile and they save the shipping of hauling it back to Japan.

The other eastern DEI oil center in stock is Sorong at the western tip of New Guinea.

My understanding is that in CHS the limit is resources. 

< Message edited by engineer -- 11/17/2008 6:31:07 PM >

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RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/18/2008 11:19:07 AM   
turkey


Posts: 92
Joined: 3/1/2004
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		Thanks all. Its stock Scenario 15 PBEM as allies so I'll keep on shipping out that oil dirrect to the HI centres, Sydney etc and I am fighting for all resource and oil centres in DEI so I hope to damage a good few in the retreat.

Anyone got any good ideas on what to do to counter the Betties?

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Post #: 23
RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/18/2008 11:29:32 AM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline 		B-17 & B-24.

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Post #: 24
RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/18/2008 11:36:14 AM   
rtrapasso


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Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

Not sure which scenario you are playing. Do you mean stock (Scenario 15) or a mod such as CHS 155?

I stock, it ill be distributed but shouldn't, no railway from Darwin.


NO - IT DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY MOVE IN STOCK - despite the presence of RR in the stock map. You have to move it yourself (by ship), unless there have been drastic revisions from 1.80 to 1.806 (and i think i would have probably heard of it.) Supplies will move (a bit) but not oil and resources.

IF someone has actually gotten oil/resources to redistribute automatically in stock from Darwin, i would like to hear of it.

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 11/18/2008 12:48:06 PM >

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RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/18/2008 3:07:52 PM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
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From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

Not sure which scenario you are playing. Do you mean stock (Scenario 15) or a mod such as CHS 155?

I stock, it ill be distributed but shouldn't, no railway from Darwin.


NO - IT DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY MOVE IN STOCK - despite the presence of RR in the stock map. You have to move it yourself (by ship), unless there have been drastic revisions from 1.80 to 1.806 (and i think i would have probably heard of it.) Supplies will move (a bit) but not oil and resources.

IF someone has actually gotten oil/resources to redistribute automatically in stock from Darwin, i would like to hear of it.


Long time since i played a stock, but if that's the case it's working as it should dispite the railway.

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RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/18/2008 3:23:17 PM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
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From: Cottesmore, Rutland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: turkey

Anyone got any good ideas on what to do to counter the Betties?



Early in the game very little other than bombing their bases or staying out of the Betties normal range.

LR cap over a TF helps but most allied fighter are short legged so mostly ineffective. Those that arn't are cannon fodder for any Zeros. One trick that does work to a degree is small TFs (1 or 2 ships). Another is to load in one trun and go the next, irrespective of being full. If you are sending a TF to a base have it disband into the port (must be level 3 to do this), reassemble next turn and go the next. Boils down to spending as little time as possible loading.

Playing the AI all these work well against a PBEM they work until spotted then, aaah! another ship gone. Comes a point when the term 'is it worth it' comes into play.

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Post #: 27
RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/18/2008 6:37:57 PM   
canadaexile

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 10/26/2005
From: Halifax Canada
Status: offline 		Thanks for all the imput. I started to move oil to Australia, but kept the tankers togeather. I hoped to distribute the oil from Sydney/Perth etc by sea.
Made the mistake of not reviewing my task force direction and landed it straight into the path of some jap bombers out of the Gillbert Islands. Learnt the hard way there.
Now I am busy building up Barker Island to provide CAP whilst diverting my supplies south to Fiji 

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Post #: 28
RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/18/2008 8:44:56 PM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
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From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: canadaexile

Thanks for all the imput. I started to move oil to Australia, but kept the tankers togeather. I hoped to distribute the oil from Sydney/Perth etc by sea.
Made the mistake of not reviewing my task force direction and landed it straight into the path of some jap bombers out of the Gillbert Islands. Learnt the hard way there.
Now I am busy building up Barker Island to provide CAP whilst diverting my supplies south to Fiji 


Sending a convoy directly to Aus from the West coast will always route it too close to Jap LBs. I think most set the home port to an Aus Base and a destination (hex or base) well clear or the LBs and set 'do not unload' until its past the destination. Last because it would unload at the destination otherwise. Not the destination could also be a fuelling stop.

Strange thing is that TFs will change their route to avoid subs but not a/c. Pity that but AE might.

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Post #: 29
RE: Allied Oil Requirements - 11/19/2008 4:16:58 PM   
canadaexile

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 10/26/2005
From: Halifax Canada
Status: offline 		That was exactly the mistake I made. I had seen the cargo task forces track the long way round to avoid jap subs near Aussie ports to supply PM. I hope that AE does implement this change as it seems stupid to carry out a recon of a jap held island and then ignore that intel!
Having said that, I suppose it happened for real in WW2.

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Post #: 30
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