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RE: Frankly, I'm fed up to the point of nausea

 
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RE: Frankly, I'm fed up to the point of nausea - 1/25/2009 10:59:04 PM   
James Ward

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael the Pole

quote:



I don't have a problem with the timing of US entry, it's the strength of the USA at entry that is unbelievable. Slow down the USA juggernaught and you solve a big balance problem. Make the entry variable, perhaps tied to successes or failures of certain nations to keep everyone guessing but WWII without the USA just isn't!



Marty, you may be aware that Glenn and I are PBEM a 1939 campaign with the "Uxbridge Variation," (USA starts with -1350 PP.) Its late April 1940 now, and I expect that the USA will break even sometime in May and become a real country again. We're going to maintain the 50pp lend/lease limit, but that will just result in higher US tech levels and unit numbers. Its a zero sum game, after all. You shove on one end of the equasion and the other end just goes up!
The thing to remember about American entry into the war is that it's a German decision. If we had a realistic political/social unrest system, it'd be easy enough to give the Germans a unrest penalty for every turn after Pearl Harbor. But as it is now, hell, I don't even know how to find out what my countries unrest number is now, much less know what effect it has if it declines (or is it increased?)



It could also be an Allied decision with an unrest penalty.
I don't think you can take the stupid 'hitler' decisions out of the game and still have a game about WWII. You can certainly test a game without the USA. Just don't do anything with it after 12/41.


< Message edited by James Ward -- 1/25/2009 11:01:31 PM >

(in reply to Michael the Pole)
Post #: 31
Good idea, with tweeks - 1/25/2009 11:18:45 PM   
balto

 

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James, the idea to take USA out until 12/41 is a great idea.  But let me add this tweek. Uxbridge fix gives the USA negative PP and converts that 1300 in to USA Research.  So it prevents USA from just saving up the 1300 and shipping it off to Britain or whatever.  Mike and I are finding that 1300 is not enough.  The 1300 will be used up by about May 1941.  So your idea could be incorporated mechanically in the game by giving USA a -2000 and converting that into USA Research.  And when USA enters, the limit to allies would be 50PP.  Sure, that would not solve the play balance because you will have USA supermen landing in Europe my mid 1943, but it is better then what we have now which is Allied dominance by the end of 1941 (when a non-sadistic Allied stategy is used).  Until the next patch, we all need to wing it on how we deal with the super powerful USA juggernaut.   What do you think about this?  I know you have great thoughts.

(in reply to James Ward)
Post #: 32
RE: Frankly, I'm fed up to the point of nausea - 1/25/2009 11:28:41 PM   
Michael the Pole


Posts: 680
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quote:

ORIGINAL: James Ward



It could also be an Allied decision with an unrest penalty.
I don't think you can take the stupid 'hitler' decisions out of the game and still have a game about WWII. You can certainly test a game without the USA. Just don't do anything with it after 12/41.



Marty, I gaurantee you, with every bit of political and historical experience at my disposal that any purely American decision to declare war on Germany without a prior declaration or attack by Germany would have had only one possible result -- Roosevelts immediate impeachment! Memories of Woodrow Wilson's (The Original Progressive) lying song and dance -- "He kept us out of War" in November, 1916 to declaration of war 4 months after the election! were too strongly resented to allow a repeat a year after Roosevelt won re-election on a direct promise that he would send no American boy to die in a foreign war.


< Message edited by Michael the Pole -- 1/25/2009 11:32:51 PM >


_____________________________

"One scoundrel is a disgrace, two is a law-firm, and three or more is a Congress." B. Franklin

Mike

A tribute to my heroes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fRU2tlE5m8

(in reply to James Ward)
Post #: 33
RE: Good idea, with tweeks - 1/25/2009 11:33:08 PM   
James Ward

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: balto

James, the idea to take USA out until 12/41 is a great idea.  But let me add this tweek. Uxbridge fix gives the USA negative PP and converts that 1300 in to USA Research.  So it prevents USA from just saving up the 1300 and shipping it off to Britain or whatever.  Mike and I are finding that 1300 is not enough.  The 1300 will be used up by about May 1941.  So your idea could be incorporated mechanically in the game by giving USA a -2000 and converting that into USA Research.  And when USA enters, the limit to allies would be 50PP.  Sure, that would not solve the play balance because you will have USA supermen landing in Europe my mid 1943, but it is better then what we have now which is Allied dominance by the end of 1941 (when a non-sadistic Allied stategy is used).  Until the next patch, we all need to wing it on how we deal with the super powerful USA juggernaut.   What do you think about this?  I know you have great thoughts.


What I suggest be done to slow the "Super units in 42 syndrome" is to start nations at lower levels (I mean level 3 artillery for the USA at start?) and make 3 bulbs take longer to complete, say 16-18 months instead of 8. So for example if the USA started at level 1 infantry at best it could be level 2 and part way to level 3 when it entered and it would have had to spend 900 pp's to get there. The best Russia could be is level 2 at the historical start of Barbarossa. This coupled with a lower war economy (25% in 39-40, 50% in 41) for both the USA and Russia might be enough to allow for a better balance game early and not screw it up to much later on. I mean Russia can get more PP's than Germany while it is at peace, at least until France falls! Say what!!!!


(in reply to balto)
Post #: 34
I like that - 1/25/2009 11:41:16 PM   
balto

 

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I think that is a great move.  I think if we all work together, we can iron out some quick fixes until the patch comes out.  It seems that Uxbridge knows how to do big brain computer stuff.  I wonder if Uxbridge could post and let us know how to change that stuff you stated above.

(in reply to James Ward)
Post #: 35
RE: Good idea, with tweeks - 1/25/2009 11:41:58 PM   
Michael the Pole


Posts: 680
Joined: 10/30/2004
From: Houston, Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: James Ward


quote:

ORIGINAL: balto

James, the idea to take USA out until 12/41 is a great idea.  But let me add this tweek. Uxbridge fix gives the USA negative PP and converts that 1300 in to USA Research.  So it prevents USA from just saving up the 1300 and shipping it off to Britain or whatever.  Mike and I are finding that 1300 is not enough.  The 1300 will be used up by about May 1941.  So your idea could be incorporated mechanically in the game by giving USA a -2000 and converting that into USA Research.  And when USA enters, the limit to allies would be 50PP.  Sure, that would not solve the play balance because you will have USA supermen landing in Europe my mid 1943, but it is better then what we have now which is Allied dominance by the end of 1941 (when a non-sadistic Allied stategy is used).  Until the next patch, we all need to wing it on how we deal with the super powerful USA juggernaut.   What do you think about this?  I know you have great thoughts.


What I suggest be done to slow the "Super units in 42 syndrome" is to start nations at lower levels (I mean level 3 artillery for the USA at start?) and make 3 bulbs take longer to complete, say 16-18 months instead of 8. So for example if the USA started at level 1 infantry at best it could be level 2 and part way to level 3 when it entered and it would have had to spend 900 pp's to get there. The best Russia could be is level 2 at the historical start of Barbarossa. This coupled with a lower war economy (25% in 39-40, 50% in 41) for both the USA and Russia might be enough to allow for a better balance game early and not screw it up to much later on. I mean Russia can get more PP's than Germany while it is at peace, at least until France falls! Say what!!!!




Interesting! We need to quantify this stuff. I believe that Chuck has done some interesting analysis along these lines as well.


< Message edited by Michael the Pole -- 1/25/2009 11:42:49 PM >


_____________________________

"One scoundrel is a disgrace, two is a law-firm, and three or more is a Congress." B. Franklin

Mike

A tribute to my heroes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fRU2tlE5m8

(in reply to James Ward)
Post #: 36
huh - 1/25/2009 11:45:01 PM   
balto

 

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Mike, are you joking.  Chuck says the game is good as is. 

(in reply to Michael the Pole)
Post #: 37
RE: Frankly, I'm fed up to the point of nausea - 2/18/2009 2:52:24 PM   
henri51


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael the Pole

Imagine that Hitler stabs the Japs in the back and refuses to declare war on the United States in Dec, 1941.



Sorry, but did you ever wonder WHY Hitler declared war on the USA, considering that he considered treaties as scraps of paper?

He did so because he knew that Roosevelt would go to any length to get the US into the war against Germany (whci was already the case in practice given Lend-lease and the sub war in the Atlantic). Roosevelt would have continued to increase aid to Britain and it would have been only a matter of time before some event such as the sinking of a US ship would have given the excuse to go to war.

Farfetched? Consider that the US used such events (invented when required) to get into the 1812 War, the Spanish-American War, the Vietnam War,and the war in Irak, to mention only a few. Roosevelt was going to get the US into the war by hook or by crook, and Hitler knew it.

Henri

BTW, I don't have this game, but how does it compare to Advanced Tactics (also sold by Matrix)? AT is he closest thing I have seen to War in Russia, and the developers are making another one that they say will be even closer...

(in reply to Michael the Pole)
Post #: 38
RE: Frankly, I'm fed up to the point of nausea - 2/18/2009 3:30:42 PM   
gwgardner

 

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Too simplistic, henri51. The blame America argument doesn't hack it.

Weinberg, for instance, in A World At Arms, lays out a convincing explanation of much broader reasons why Hitler declared war on the US.

1) He was a firm believer in the 'stab in the back' view of why Germany lost WWI - socialist treason. He discounted the power of the US in WWI. Thought the US was riven with turmoil, and was a paper tiger. So war with US was no big deal.

2) He and his naval leaders were itching to swat down the US anti-sub activities. They believed that once they were at war, the US anti-sub effort could be dealt with properly.

3) Hitler several times pushed for and approved of a major naval building program, with the specific aim of taking on the US down the road. Circumstances always forced a postponement of that building program, but his intent remained. Ergo, his encouragement of Japan to strike the US. With Japan as an ally, he had his 'big navy.' One way to get the Japanese to go ahead with war against the US was to promise to join in. Again, it was no big deal as far as he was concerned.

He was eager to declare war on the US.

I'm not discounting America's role leading to the war, but please, don't make it out like it was that evil Roosevelt against the innocent Hitler.


< Message edited by gwgardner -- 2/18/2009 3:33:19 PM >

(in reply to henri51)
Post #: 39
RE: Frankly, I'm fed up to the point of nausea - 2/18/2009 6:50:47 PM   
henri51


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

Too simplistic, henri51. The blame America argument doesn't hack it.

I'm not discounting America's role leading to the war, but please, don't make it out like it was that evil Roosevelt against the innocent Hitler.



I'm not blaming Roosevelt, I fully approve what he did and consider that he had no choice.He knew that war was inevitable and would have acted in consequence had not the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.

Henri

(in reply to gwgardner)
Post #: 40
RE: Frankly, I'm fed up to the point of nausea - 2/18/2009 9:47:54 PM   
Michael the Pole


Posts: 680
Joined: 10/30/2004
From: Houston, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael the Pole

Imagine that Hitler stabs the Japs in the back and refuses to declare war on the United States in Dec, 1941.



Sorry, but did you ever wonder WHY Hitler declared war on the USA, considering that he considered treaties as scraps of paper?

He did so because he knew that Roosevelt would go to any length to get the US into the war against Germany (whci was already the case in practice given Lend-lease and the sub war in the Atlantic). Roosevelt would have continued to increase aid to Britain and it would have been only a matter of time before some event such as the sinking of a US ship would have given the excuse to go to war.

Farfetched? Consider that the US used such events (invented when required) to get into the 1812 War, the Spanish-American War, the Vietnam War,and the war in Irak, to mention only a few. Roosevelt was going to get the US into the war by hook or by crook, and Hitler knew it.

Henri

BTW, I don't have this game, but how does it compare to Advanced Tactics (also sold by Matrix)? AT is he closest thing I have seen to War in Russia, and the developers are making another one that they say will be even closer...


My my, what a "target rich environment" as the fighter jocks would say. So we'll start with our new pigeon, oops, sorry, I meant new comrade -- and then we'll feed Gary into the grinder.
Henri51, Have you heard of the ship called the good Rueben James?
Run by hard fighting men, both of honor and fame? She flew the stars and stripes for the land of the free, but tonight she's in her grave at the bottom of the sea....
It was there in the dark of that cold, uncertain night, they watched for the U-Boats and waited for a fight. Then a whine and a rock and a great explosion roared that laid the Rueben James on the cold ocean floor."
Hahahaha -- that was just too good to pass up! Pardon my levity (cough, cough.)
USS Rueben James was stationed in Iceland in 1941 and was assigned as part of the escort of the East bound convoy HX156. On 31 October, 1941 Rueben James had deliberately placed herself between an amunition ship and the known position of several U-Boats operating as a hunting or wolf pack. At 0525 U-552, Kapitainleutnant Erich Topp, torpedoed the Rueben James, blowing it's bow completely off and detonating the forward 4 inch magazine. One hundred and fifteen Americans died.
Roosevelt didnt declare war. He didnt declare war because he was too busy defending himself from the calls for his impeachment for sending an American warship into a combat zone when we were nuetral. The sinking occured less than a month before the November Presidental Election and Wendell Wilkie was hammering Roosevelt about his "secret plan to involve us in the European War." It was such an issue that Roosevelt, in one of the most outrageous lies in American political history, (ranking closely behind "I am not a Socialist" and ""I did not have sex with that woman") promised that he would "...not send American boys into any foreign wars."
Now, Henri51, I can't believe that you think that Wilkie was correct and that Roosevelt DID have a secret plan to get us into a war with Hitler.!!!
Because if he did, and Americans died as a result, Roosevelt would have been impeached so fast that it would make your hair white! If you doubt this take a quick look at the Senate hearings into the period prior to Pearl Harbor, and the accusations that Roosevelt had prior knowledge of the Japanese attack plans.
Gary, I have to run -- I'll visit you later this evening.
Love and kisses

< Message edited by Michael the Pole -- 2/19/2009 2:46:12 AM >


_____________________________

"One scoundrel is a disgrace, two is a law-firm, and three or more is a Congress." B. Franklin

Mike

A tribute to my heroes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fRU2tlE5m8

(in reply to henri51)
Post #: 41
RE: Frankly, I'm fed up to the point of nausea - 2/19/2009 10:27:53 PM   
henri51


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Nice argument, but...

In 1940, the isolationists were a minority, and the Republicans had chosen Wendell Wylkie, an internationalist who was in no way an isolationist. The Congress passed the draft, and voted budgets to significantly increase the US military. Roosevelt gave orders to shoot on German submarines on sight, and Congress passed lend-Lease and the US gave airplanes and ships to Britain in exchange for bases in the Atlantic.The US was clearly gearing up for war.

As for impeachment, the isolationists did not have the votes in Congress to impeach Roosevelt, and Republican leader Wylkie would not have supported such a move. And anyhow, since when have American Presidents been impeached for lying about the reasons for going to war? Was Johnson impeached for lying about the rigged Tonkin Gulf incident? Was Bush impeached for lying about inexistant weapons of mass destruction?

It had been clear to Roosevelt that the US was going to be drawn into the war, and in this he was far-seeing and correct in his actions.

Given the above facts and others, I stand by my answer that Pearl Harbor or not, the US was inevitably headed for war.

Henri

"You supply the army and I will supply the war!" Newspaper magnate William Randolph Hearst to the US President before the start of the Spanish-American War (which also used the alleged blowing up by Spain of the ship Maine as an excuse to go to war -and we know today that the Maine was not blown up by explosives placed on the hull as claimed at the time, but from an explosion on the inside).

(in reply to Michael the Pole)
Post #: 42
RE: Frankly, I'm fed up to the point of nausea - 2/19/2009 11:55:58 PM   
gwgardner

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51

I stand by my answer that Pearl Harbor or not, the US was inevitably headed for war.



You get no argument from me on that. However ...

your original post stated pretty much that Roosevelt forced Hitler to declare war on the US. Your implication further was that poor old Hitler was just minding his own business, and if not for the bullying of the mean old US, he was all for peace.

As for Bush lying about the weapons of mass destruction ... oh man, I can see there's no point in going further with enlightening you on that ...

(in reply to henri51)
Post #: 43
RE: Frankly, I'm fed up to the point of nausea - 8/21/2009 3:40:15 AM   
PitifulGrunt


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What a fantastic forum! Brilliant!

_____________________________

If you are going to go through hell, keep going. - Churchill

(in reply to gwgardner)
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